Liturgy: The Church Ain't Getting the Job Done

[Pariah_Pirana]

James_2:24:

Then you look at doritos, pizza, mountain dew… being consecrated… or clowns all over the sanctuary (this i have witnessed myself)… preaching false doctrines… the list goes on and on…

They might be trying, but it’s impossible to confect the Eucharist using the foodstuffs you suggest.

Before you lay this all on V2, take a close look at the consition of the Mass in most parishes prior to V2. Abuse free? Not hardly.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I am still looking for an answer to my question, maybe you missed it.

You said,

First, it might be a good idea to name a primate for the USA/Canada over both the Latin and Eastern Churches.

So I will ask it again.

Please explain how this would work?

Why should a Latin Bishop sit over an Eastern Bishop?

The Eastern Catholic Churches already have someone above them.

Each Eastern Church has its own hierarchy and synod of bishops.

Why add another layer with a Latin Bishop at the top? Or are you suggesting that we totally destroy the Eastern Churches structures and make them parts of the Roman Church?

 

[James_2_24]

ByzCath:

I am still looking for an answer to my question, maybe you missed it.

You said,

So I will ask it again.

Please explain how this would work?

Why should a Latin Bishop sit over an Eastern Bishop?

The Eastern Catholic Churches already have someone above them.

Each Eastern Church has its own hierarchy and synod of bishops.

Why add another layer with a Latin Bishop at the top? Or are you suggesting that we totally destroy the Eastern Churches structures and make them parts of the Roman Church?

It wouldn’t work and shouldn’t be done. There is no reason for a Latin Bishop to sit over a Eastern Bishop… it simply makes no sense whatsoever. The Eastern Churches should never be destroyed. All Latinization of Eastern Churches shold be done away with. Let all the respective Churches bring to Catholicism their liturgies and traditions and make the life of the church that much richer.

 

[James_2_24]

Pariah Pirana:

They might be trying, but it’s impossible to confect the Eucharist using the foodstuffs you suggest.

Before you lay this all on V2, take a close look at the consition of the Mass in most parishes prior to V2. Abuse free? Not hardly.

I never meant to give the impression that they were abuse free. But with abuses of this level? No way, I don’t believe it. These new/extreme abuses? Yes, I believe they are a result of Vatican II.

But please understand what I am saying. Not a DIRECT result. Its not as if I believe Vatican II CALLED for these abuses or ALLOWED for them… not at all. But nevertheless, I think they happened because of Vatican II… indirectly. And I think if the Fathers of the Council know that this fallout would happen they would’ve left the Church alone.

 

[rwoehmke]

]
Then you look at doritos, pizza, mountain dew… being consecrated… or clowns all over the sanctuary (this i have witnessed myself)… Priests preaching false doctrines… the list goes on and on…

I had heard about this sort of thing happening back in the late 60’s but thie is the first time I have had any hint that iy still happened. I guess I assumed it went the way of all hippies. I keep hearing on these forum threads about how the Pope…, the Nishop…, the Pastor…ought to exercise his authority. Authority is a wonderful thing when the Authority and the one to whom it is directed are in agreement as to its validty and force. Otherwise one might be more successful pushing on a rope to move an object. It didn’t even always work when you could burn the offender at the stake or have him made taller on the rack. I am under the impression that most abuses are relatively minor compared to trying to confect the Eucharist with pizza and pepsi. Annoying to some perhaps, but not even noticed by the great unwashed in our pews. If satan wanted to invent something to distract us from our worship, he would have a hard time topping the GIRM. Maybe nude Liturgical Dance?

 

[chicago]

Pariah Pirana:

My goodness you sure paint a pessimistic picture. One that I don’t agree with.

Perhaps I have just seen too much and recognize how people don’t easily change once they get set in their ways and like it.

If a priest defiantly ignores the instructions of the Church once he has been thuroughly trained and directed by his bishop, he needs to be disciplined and/or removed from ministry.

And if something impedes that, then it too needs to be changed as part of this process.

It all sounds so very ideal. And yet we live in a real world with weak and sinful men.

Liturgical abuse can be slashed, but it takes catechesis and courage…

Certainly with catechesis, courage, and cooperation it can be reduced. But probably not entirely eliminated.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

chicago:

Perhaps I have just seen too much and recognize how people don’t easily change once they get set in their ways and like it.

It all sounds so very ideal. And yet we live in a real world with weak and sinful men.

Certainly with catechesis, courage, and cooperation it can be reduced. But probably not entirely eliminated.

In the military you have what is known as a “non-can-do” attitude. In private enterprise it’s known as a “wasted paycheck.” Either way, the Church, and more specifically the Mass deserves better than gloom, doom and no plan.

More excuses?

Totally eliminated? Nope. Reduced by 99%+ ? Yes. I’ll focus on the 99%+ while you take the fraction of 1%, OK?

 

[chicago]

Pariah Pirana:

In the military you have what is known as a “non-can-do” attitude. In private enterprise it’s known as a “wasted paycheck.”

And, yet, that is precisely where I would say that your own perspective is problematic. For the Church is not a military institution or business which can effectively function in that way. (If it were I would agree with you wholeheartedly.) It’s a differemt beast which needs to be respected for what it is and dealt with in kind. If one attempts to approach it by mere militaristic or business principles, one won’t likely be successful in accomplishing the Church’s mission.

Either way, the Church, and more specifically the Mass deserves better than gloom, doom and no plan.

Again, I don’t disagree. I am merely saying that a human institution like the Church presents it’s own unique challenges of difficult human nature.

More excuses?

I’ve merely provided realistic analysis and explanations, no excuses.

[qute]Totally eliminated? Nope. Reduced by 99%+ ? Yes. I’ll focus on the 99%+ while you take the fraction of 1%, OK?

Reduced by 99%? Keep dreaming. As long as sin and human willfulness (as well as human distintness of personality and all) persists in the world, you’re numbers won’t add up.

 

[Patchunky]

James_2:24:

It wouldn’t work and shouldn’t be done. There is no reason for a Latin Bishop to sit over a Eastern Bishop… it simply makes no sense whatsoever. The Eastern Churches should never be destroyed. All Latinization of Eastern Churches shold be done away with. Let all the respective Churches bring to Catholicism their liturgies and traditions and make the life of the church that much richer.

I have a novel idea…

LET’S LET THE EASTERN BISHOPS LOOK AFTER THE LATIN CHURCH SO THEY CAN TAKE OUT ALL THE STATUES AND PEWS AND KNEELERS!:clapping:

I THINK TURN-AROUND IS FAIR PLAY AFTER ALL… LET’S LET THE OTHER SIDE SEE WHAT IT’S LIKE TO BE RULED BY OTHERS!!!:yup:

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

chicago:

And, yet, that is precisely where I would say that your own perspective is problematic. For the Church is not a military institution or business which can effectively function in that way. (If it were I would agree with you wholeheartedly.) It’s a differemt beast which needs to be respected for what it is and dealt with in kind. If one attempts to approach it by mere militaristic or business principles, one won’t likely be successful in accomplishing the Church’s mission.

Again, I don’t disagree. I am merely saying that a human institution like the Church presents it’s own unique challenges of difficult human nature.

I’ve merely provided realistic analysis and explanations, no excuses.

[qute]Totally eliminated? Nope. Reduced by 99%+ ? Yes. I’ll focus on the 99%+ while you take the fraction of 1%, OK?

No, the Church is not the government, business or the military. It’s the Church. But something must be done to eliminate liturgical abuse. I have offered just one idea. What have you offered other than negativity?

99%+ I’ll stand by that. Only someone deeply ignorant of organizational psychology and planning would argue with that number. However, it all depends on how serious the effort is.

While you suggest you have “provided realistic analysis and explanations, no excuses” I honestly see no evidence of that. I see a closed, and perhaps embittered mind that is quick to condemn.

Profound, positive change is possible. Unfortunately some people do not believe that (anymore.)

 

[James0235]

Patchunky:

I have a novel idea…

LET’S LET THE EASTERN BISHOPS LOOK AFTER THE LATIN CHURCH SO THEY CAN TAKE OUT ALL THE STATUES AND PEWS AND KNEELERS!:clapping:

I THINK TURN-AROUND IS FAIR PLAY AFTER ALL… LET’S LET THE OTHER SIDE SEE WHAT IT’S LIKE TO BE RULED BY OTHERS!!!:yup:

I wouldn’t want to see the statues and pews and kneelers go. But your idea does have some merit. Perhaps if we put some Eastern bishops in charge of Latin churches they could see to it that the banners are removed and the statues and pews and kneelers are put back.

James

 

[stbruno]

St.Francis DeSales had to counter this problem centuries ago. The good news is that the sacraments are “priest-proof” irregardless of how they react. And the Holy Spirit is in charge. Even the Miracle of Lanciano, Italy when the bread and wine was changed into actual cardiac muscle and human blood during the Consecration, by a skeptical priest…we are reminded of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. Keep praying for our priests. I think we are much quicker to criticize than embrace them and pray for their conversion as well. Who says they don’t need evangelizing as much as the regular population of the church?

 

[chicago]

Pariah Pirana:

No, the Church is not the government, business or the military. It’s the Church. But something must be done to eliminate liturgical abuse. I have offered just one idea. What have you offered other than negativity?

What you dismiss as “negativity” is, in reality, mere critique of your loftiness in expected outcome via such a programme as you recommend.

Undoubtably, (as I have agreed in this thread) there are things which could be done to help the situation to improve.

99%+ I’ll stand by that. Only someone deeply ignorant of organizational psychology and planning would argue with that number. However, it all depends on how serious the effort is.

In a sense, I think it is because of my understanding of organizational psychology and planning that I can argue it. You assume that such is not a two way street in a case like this.

While you suggest you have “provided realistic analysis and explanations, no excuses” I honestly see no evidence of that. I see a closed, and perhaps embittered mind that is quick to condemn.

Profound, positive change is possible. Unfortunately some people do not believe that (anymore.)

I don’t know how many times I need to say that I agree that there are positive possibilities for you to understand that I do. But, then, if one only wishes to stand with a “closed, perhaps embittered mind that is quick to condemn”, perhaps such can not be grasped.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

chicago:

What you dismiss as “negativity” is, in reality, mere critique of your loftiness in expected outcome via such a programme as you recommend.

Undoubtably, (as I have agreed in this thread) there are things which could be done to help the situation to improve.

In a sense, I think it is because of my understanding of organizational psychology and planning that I can argue it. You assume that such is not a two way street in a case like this.

I don’t know how many times I need to say that I agree that there are positive possibilities for you to understand that I do. But, then, if one only wishes to stand with a “closed, perhaps embittered mind that is quick to condemn”, perhaps such can not be grasped.

You comments boil down to those of a nattering nabob of negativity. It is extremely easy to negatively critique someone’s else idea with one’s empty opinions and that’s all you have done.

The Church in the USA has already provided an interesting model on how it can take action when it has to. Pressure on the US bishops finally made them take serious action regarding the sexual abuse/child molestation scandal. While it may still not be enough, it’s far, far more than in the past.

Apply the same (or greater) pressure on the bishops (along with plenty of education) with respect to the liturgy and one would expect similar results. The problem is the bishops never feel that level of pressure with respect to the Mass.

I’ll go so far as to say that abuses that invalidate the Mass are more grave than sexual abuse/child molestation! Lesser abuses (as defined in RS) are extremely important also, but up till now they have received little more than lip service.

Keep preaching the negativity, though. A great many (at least here in the USA) are buying into it…

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

stbruno:

St.Francis DeSales had to counter this problem centuries ago. The good news is that the sacraments are “priest-proof” irregardless of how they react. And the Holy Spirit is in charge. Even the Miracle of Lanciano, Italy when the bread and wine was changed into actual cardiac muscle and human blood during the Consecration, by a skeptical priest…we are reminded of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. Keep praying for our priests. I think we are much quicker to criticize than embrace them and pray for their conversion as well. Who says they don’t need evangelizing as much as the regular population of the church?

So very true! A little catechesis would also be welcomed…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Pariah Pirana:

You comments boil down to those of a nattering nabob of negativity. It is extremely easy to negatively critique someone’s else idea with one’s empty opinions and that’s all you have done.

In reading of this thread (I will admit that mostly that has been skimming as it seems like this is nothing but a bunch of whineing and complaining) it is my opinion that it is you who are being negative.

As well as avoiding questions of your idea. Twice I have asked you and twice you have ignored me.

 

[chicago]

Pariah Pirana:

The Church in the USA has already provided an interesting model on how it can take action when it has to. Pressure on the US bishops finally made them take serious action regarding the sexual abuse/child molestation scandal. While it may still not be enough, it’s far, far more than in the past.

Apply the same (or greater) pressure on the bishops (along with plenty of education) with respect to the liturgy and one would expect similar results. The problem is the bishops never feel that level of pressure with respect to the Mass.

Of course, many (including Rome) questioned whether the new policies were overly stringent.

That aside, the pressures came from the press and then the laity. In the case of liturgy, the pressure which might come from the laity (and priests) could favor certain abuses that they have become accustomed to. Episopal pressure, therefore, might not be effective by such counterweight.

As an example of this, I would point to the recent revisions of the GIRM. Many dioceses attempted to implement these complete with instructions and explanations as to why we should do what is decreed. In some instances, this helped to improve understanding and compliance. In others, they were just disregarded.

I’ll go so far as to say that abuses that invalidate the Mass are more grave than sexual abuse/child molestation! Lesser abuses (as defined in RS) are extremely important also, but up till now they have received little more than lip service.

More serious matters ought to be dealt with swiftly, though prudently for hopeful effective outcomes rather than just fanning of flames. Lesser absues are harder to deal with, particularly considering that they might be so widespread or far flung with possibilies that they could even go relatively unnoticed. One must, further, ascertain whether they are occasional mishaps or regular problems. You can’t just have a liturgical cop sitting around to blow his whistle at every Mass or come running with a Billy club to beat down the dissident. One can appeal for compliance. Teach and try to foster devotion so that greater reverence will naturally follow. But it is questionable what else can practically be done to realistically respond in any disciplinary measures in that realm. More likely, the best way to deal with things is to try and foster an appreciation among the laity such that they will demand better from their priests.

Keep preaching the negativity, though. A great many (at least here in the USA) are buying into it…

And here I thought you were in Vatican City!

 

[Patchunky]

ByzCath:

In reading of this thread (I will admit that mostly that has been skimming as it seems like this is nothing but a bunch of whineing and complaining) it is my opinion that it is you who are being negative.

As well as avoiding questions of your idea. Twice I have asked you and twice you have ignored me.

FELDAMADT KRISZTUS!
FALOBAN FELDAMADT!

LA,LA,LA,LA,LA,LA,LA…

That’s because if they can’t see us or hear us, we don’t exist…

…putting fingers back in his ears and closing his eyes… LA, LA,LA,LA,LA,LA,LA… :whacky:

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

ByzCath:

In reading of this thread (I will admit that mostly that has been skimming as it seems like this is nothing but a bunch of whineing and complaining) it is my opinion that it is you who are being negative.

As well as avoiding questions of your idea. Twice I have asked you and twice you have ignored me.

Your comments added absolutely nothing to the dialogue. I wonder why you made them? To somehow make yourself feel better perchance? No one is holding a gun to your forehead – just pass on this thread. Simple.

 

[jturnbull]

Perhaps its because the Bishops are weak and and dont want to ruffle anyones feathers. maybe they think that the problem will just go away. It wont!