Liturgy with little Vernacular with Latin?

[whatistrue]

And you complain about other people reading insults into places where they do not exist? I think you well know that “Extraordinary” does not in any way imply “inferior”. Is Confirmation given by a Pastor rather than a Bishop “inferior” since the Pastor is an “Extraordinary” Minister of the Sacrament?

 

[Pitcairn17]

That is the supposition of the Vatican; but the terms ordinary and extraordinary imply that the traditional Mass is in a position of inferiority.

Talk about going out of one’s way to seek out “offense!” In ordinary usage, an “extraordinary” accomplishment would, if anything, be regarded as superior to an “ordinary” accomplishment. But apparently in your world “extraordinary” is considered derisive and insulting. Hard to understand.

 

[AnaCarolina7]

I have little vernacular in english so latin mass comes no easier or difficult. God sees my heart. I was taught that a mass in a Bascilica was good even thou i struggle with words.

God akways reads the hearts of those in attendance . Iprefer latin maybesome go to NO mass. But its what is in the heart.

 

[otjm]

used little vernacular in them where Latin is not popular

I would suggest that the near universal use of the vernacular is indicative of the desire of the vast majority of Mass attendees to have the Mass in their language.

And as an aside, if you read Sacrosanctum Concilium, you may well see that the vernacular was only a part of the changes the bishops wished to make to the Mass, making the issue of the vernacular vs. Latin an exercise in coulda woulda shoulda.

 

[AnaCarolina7]

How is this possible in USA? There are so many languages.

 

[otjm]

How is this possible in USA? There are so many languages.

I live in a small town adjacent to the capital city, with about 4, 255,000 population; there are four Catholic parishes in the area. There are multiple Masses in English; many in Spanish, and at lest one in Vietnamese and one in Tagalog.

The largest parish in the area (3,000+ families) also has a Mass in the EF every Sunday; it has fewer than 100 people attending regularly.

Note: I am by no means anti-EF or negative about it; I grew up on it in the 1950’s. I am simply reporting facts, so don’t shoot me.

There are certainly other areas in the US where the EF is more popular and better attended; I am not suggesting otherwise But in the 17,000+/- parishes in the US, the vast majority have Mass in the OF in their (native?) language - Polish, Vietnamese, and etc.

We also have three Eastern Rite parishes in our state, for three different Churches in unity with Rome.

 

[AnaCarolina7]

That is so wonderful! We have 2 parishes and a Basillica
Probably in the state.

 

[3335]

I don’t know about United States, but in India itself there are 19,500 languages in India and only 22 languages are official.

 

[3335]

I meant that where people are not able to understand this. Actually India is a Yin and Yang .
I mean many are rich and poor , many are above the poverty and below the poverty ( below the status of a street dog), many are educated and uneducated (don’t know how to read and write,
How will the poor uneducated below the status of dog people understand.
Because India is a big country and in every state of country there is different language, culture, way of practise religion, food , social status, etc

 

[dochawk]

As an aside I really don’t understand why anyone dislikes the terminology of Novus Ordo, after all it is named as such by Vatican II,

In significant part, because it isn’t called that, and the OF hasn’t been called that for decades.

And most of the rest is because when folks do call it that, more often than not it is dismissively or putting it down.

As far as to the effects of gradual change, look at Eastern Catholics, who started using English, a bit at a time, prior to Vatican II. Liturgy revision/restoration came far later, and although there are those who hate the changes (web search “teal terror”, there just hwasn’t the same backlash.

 

[otjm]

I meant that where people are not able to understand this.

The vast majority of people in the US in the 1950s could not speak Latin, and while some had had Latin as a class in high school, it generally was not ecclesiastical Latin - more likely they read Cicero and/or “all Gaul was divided into four parts”. Some had missals, but not the majority; the rest were left on their own to “fulfill their obligation” - which is why the term “active participation” was used in SC - the bishops wanted people involved in the Mass, not saying private devotions.

:You asked a question that presupposes the bishops of Vatican 2 not seeking to make adjustments to the Mass (and there was much more than just language) and I have responded.

It may be just me, but I do not respond well to “woulda coulda shoulda” questions. But in response to your question, it is clear from the reaction to the changes to the Mass, that having the Mass in the vernacular has been exceedingly popular to those who attend.

And that is my response.

In India, you are referring to the Dalats.

 

[Maximian]

making it clear that the previous form had not actually been abrogated

A nice way to put it, but the reality is that it had been ruthlessly stamped out. And even now I don’t think non-traditionalists realise the uphill struggle that Catholics face if they ask forcwhat is their right - a Traditional Latin Mass.

 

[Maximian]

think you well know that “Extraordinary” does not in any way imply “inferior”. I

Ok let’s try that out in a different context. Imagine if the terms “caucasian” and “black” were replaced with “ordinary colour” and “extraordinary colour”. How would you view that?

 

[3335]

. . . . In India the Bishops are the garbage bin because they were told that they have to translate the Catechism and other book in vernacular so that Catholic in India and defend and promote there faith and nothing is done with it.
And many Catholic were convinced by Protestants and they left the Church .
Even the missal of Novus Ordo missal for lay Catholics was difficult for them to translate in vernacular because not everyone understands English . There are 19,500 languages in India .
In Catholics are given small bible stories in the name of Catechism.
I can’t think how they were doing before the 2nd Vatican Council.

 

[otjm]

This is going off topic.

There is a very small minority of Catholics who want the Mass in Latin; the vast majority appear to far prefer their native language.

And that answers your question. I see no reason to pursue the matter further.

 

[Jen7]

There is a very small minority of Catholics who want the Mass in Latin; the vast majority appear to far prefer their native language.

And that answers your question.

I believe the question was ‘what if vernacular had been introduced into the TLM & theNO hadn’t been created. It sounds like the best of everything to me!

 

[whatistrue]

A nice way to put it, but the reality is that it had been ruthlessly stamped out. And even now I don’t think non-traditionalists realise the uphill struggle that Catholics face if they ask forcwhat is their right - a Traditional Latin Mass.

“Uphill struggle”? Please stop pretending to be an oppressed victim. In may cases, the “uphill struggle” is to find enough people that want the EF to make it feasible to allocate the time and staff (including a priest who can say it) necessary to schedule one. That is not suppression, it is demographics.

Imagine if the terms “caucasian” and “black” were replaced with “ordinary colour” and “extraordinary colour”. How would you view that?

As what it is. A nonsensical analogy. We are talking about the use of Ordinary and Extraordinary within the Church, and to try and claim that the Church attaches any additional meaning to those terms is frankly ridiculous. Again, stop trying to pretend to be a victim here. You are not one, and if your basis of claiming it is assuming a meaning of a Church term totally contrary to what the Church itself and essentially everyone else who hears it uses then you have no case whatsoever.

 

[Maximian]

Please stop pretending to be an oppressed victim. In may cases, the “uphill struggle” is to find enough people that want the EF to make it feasible

Im ONLY talking about cases where there is no shortage of people who want it.

Here’s an example of the story in Detroit. There are worse but it’s probably fairly typical.

Here’s my experience in our diocese, where average parish congregation size for vernacular Mass ranges between 10 and 50, apart from particular national communities which are packed. 85 churches are scheduled for closure, so youd expect the archdiocese would be happy to see at least one kept open.

So:

2010: 45 petitioners request TLM. No reply
2011. Petitioners threaten to complain to Vatican. Answer : yes but there are no priests who know how to do it. Petitioners respond that, actually, they have identified 2 priests who can do it and would like to. After three months the two priests suddenly say they cant do it after all.
2012-14 petitioners repeat pleas and diocese raises a new objection each time. Petitioners offer to train a priest, pay for church upkeep etc.
2015: Fed up, some parishioners invited SSPX in. With 2 weeks all problems disappear and diocese opens a TLM later that year.

 

[whatistrue]

No, you never mentioned localized issues but rather put on the mantle of victimhood and attempted to claim that certain words meant something that they didn’t. If you only meant isolated and localized issues then you should have said so from the beginning. I am done here.

 

[otjm]

It sounds like the best of everything to me!

It would appear that for the vast majority of bishops in the 1960’s, it was not the best of everything; the vernacular was clearly not their [primary focus although it was a significant part.

Have you ever read Sacrosanctum Concillium?