Livable wage/ one working parent

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Kelfa28 said:

“It’s seriously tough reading other posters claim they make 6 figures and still struggle. Based on my experience now I couldn’t imagine pulling in that kind of money and ever struggling financially. I’d be greatful to find a job that pays 40k at this point.”

I know an empty nester couple that usually makes around $250k a year that is about to be in trouble because of drops in income. Their real estate holdings are in the low millions, which is the problem–the mortgages are HUGE and their financial plan was that everything was going to go perfectly…forever. Hopefully they’ll be able to sell something before they miss any payments.

It’s possible to be broke at all income levels, although not poor.

cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/11/17/nicolas.cage.lawsuit/index.html?_s=PM:SHOWBIZ
 
Sunbreak said:
Well, it depends on where you live. A livable wage in one state wouldn’t even come close in another. One way to look at it is to use the standard that landlords use to be able to rent a place - you need 3x the income of whatever the rent is. So, in my area, the average apartment rent for just 1 bedroom is $800 x 3 = $2400 per month needed. If you rent a house, the average rental cost here is $1200 x 3 - $3600 per month.
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That’s a good way to even it out for the cost of living. The OP mentioned wanting 4 children. That means at least a 3 bedroom apartment. In my area a 3BR in a reasonable (not luxury) complex is about $900 a month. That comes out to about $33,000 per year using your metric. There are several subdivisions with new, cute houses for around $150K which translates into a mortgage payment in that same ballpark.

Public school teacher salaries in the same school district start at just under $40K. Assuming the teacher did not already have the 4 kids when beginning his teaching career, a teacher could surely support a family in this part of the country.

OP, since you are just in the planning stages, look at getting a specialized rather than a general education degree. In many school districts, teachers of math and science earn more than general K-6 teachers. Special ed teachers and teachers with second language proficiency also often earn a differential.
 
Kelfa28 said:
It’s seriously tough reading other posters claim they make 6 figures and still struggle. Based on my experience now I couldn’t imagine pulling in that kind of money and ever struggling financially. I’d be greatful to find a job that pays 40k at this point.
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To be fair, the poster didn’t say he “struggled financially”. He said that sometimes the budget was tight. That budget might include school tuition, a mortgage, retirement savings, etc. An unexpected expense can still blow the budget. This doesn’t mean that he can’t make ends meet on a six figure income.
 
bitterhope said:
My husband is the only one working in our family. He brings in quite a bit under $40,000 and we are having our 9th baby soon. We make it work without debt or assistance, but you need to be willing to make lots of sacrifices. We don’t have cable, we run our cars until they die, we repair instead of replace, hand-me-downs for the kids, cook in three times a day instead of buying lunch/dinner out, brew our own coffee, garden to supplement food budget, and generally just make do with what we’ve got. We also never seem to have enough savings to account for anything, but we always make it through hard times somehow. Not everyone is willing to make it work, but it is possible. Occasionally I babysit or sew/crochet for a little extra money, and sometimes I work a “real” job if we just need some more money at the moment, but I haven’t had to do that in several years now.
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You are AWESOME! What an incredible witness you are. God bless you and your family.
 
Xantippe said:
A related issue is that in higher-cost parts of the US people are desperately outbidding each other to keep themselves and their kids out of “bad” neighborhoods and “bad” schools. (Elizabeth Warren talks about this in “The Two Income Trap.”) Having househunted in rough neighborhoods around DC trying to find something under $400k, I understand the problem, but our solution was not to play. (You would not believe how many nearly $475k-495k houses in rough neighborhoods I looked at before we gave up–that was right before the housing bubble blew.)

There’s a tremendous difference between a “good” school and a “bad” school. (I’m putting good and bad in quotation marks because a lot of research suggests that the difference isn’t the school itself, but the predominant population of the school.) My sister, for instance, bailed on our home town school where there are a lot of drugs and neglect and kids had to be taught about stuff like floor and salt and a teacher thought my little nephew couldn’t possibly be reading Harry Potter. Nephew is now going to a school now where the kids are the kids of Boeing and Microsoft people and moms bring kids sushi lunches. A lot of the stuff the “good school” parents indulge in are frills, but it’s hard to say where the frills stop and the good parenting begins.
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My kids went to a fairly good schools. It’s like the United Nations. I like the natural diversity. The number one predictor of success for a child in school is the parents’ socioeconomic status, so when you draw a school’s population from a homogeneous socioeconomic (not ethnic or racial) group, you have a people of all colors and nationalities working toward a common goal. Pretty good.
True enough, although I think I knew a fair number of kids who expected their parents to do their best with college, which is a reasonable expectation (and what FAFSA expects, as a matter of fact).
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Yeah, love that FAFSA. It just laughs at me.
 
mommamaree said:
You are AWESOME! What an incredible witness you are. God bless you and your family.
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Not really, but thank you. We just do what we need to do and God does the rest. Believe me, the internal struggles I have are the same as everyone else’s.

I was starting dinner tonight and this thread popped into my head. I am fixing that great budget stretcher meatloaf, mashed potatoes, black eye peas, and corn, when what my kids, husband and I really are craving is hamburgers, fried potatoes, and salad. Well, I know exactly what would happen if we did have more money—we would be cooking the things we really want instead of what we do most of the time now. I would grill steaks instead of hot dogs, bake salmon instead of chicken, stir fry shrimp instead of fajitas, lasagna instead of spaghetti, that kind of thing. Yeah, I understand where the money goes as income increases. For my family it would most definitely go into the refrigerator and stomachs, for another family it would be cable tv, still another it would be fashions, and another it would be cars. The more money we have the more we spend, and it’s hard to cut back once you grow accustomed to the little things.

Don’t get me wrong, we eat healthy most of the time. We have never been hungry and our fridge and freezer stay full, but it would be nice to eat what your stomach craves 75% of the time instead of eating what the wallet mandates. If our income went up enough to do that, probably the next step would be dinner out once a month, and then probably add cable or satellite tv, etc. I do understand that more money doesn’t mean more breathing room in the budget. Yeah, higher income for me tonight it would mean burgers instead of meatloaf for sure…and fried potatoes! But meatloaf is about half the amount of meat, and I only use 5 lbs of potatoes to make mashed potatoes. Fried potatoes is at least 10 lbs because they are a family favorite. Everyone gets full on tonight’s meal and it’s a healthier choice I’m sure, but I would still love to be fixing the other meal.
 
Kelfa28 said:
It’s seriously tough reading other posters claim they make 6 figures and still struggle. Based on my experience now I couldn’t imagine pulling in that kind of money and ever struggling financially. I’d be grateful to find a job that pays 40k at this point.
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You know, I shared that in the spirit of helping the OP understand some realities about life. I didn’t think it would be seized upon by people.

I am not going to go through the budget with everybody but life is expensive.

I find that in this culture we seize on anyone who makes money as “the enemy” We are conditioned to see that as the case. To rile the masses against our neighbor. We are not poor. We have so much we could cut. And so much more we could spend. We have been poor. We have had more disposable income than we do now. The point is that many people see their bills and go “man, how are we going to swing this?” and the answer always seems to be ok. I have never starved, I have never been put in debtors prison. And neither have my friends who make significantly less or more than we do.

While making a livable wage is something that should be done, this idea that the ones who are middle class should shut up about money problems only shows the real problem and that is that people think, man, if we just made 20k more. Our lives would be amazing! It is not true.

We moved to this horrible place because of 20k more a year. I would give it all back now if I could.

We don’t struggle to get by, and yes, “how am I going to pay for NFL Sunday ticket this year” is not in the same category as how am I going to eat and go to the doctor this year.

The fact of the matter is that every person on here has internet access and a computer. So lets drop the third world poverty cries.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
You know, I shared that in the spirit of helping the OP understand some realities about life. I didn’t think it would be seized upon by people.

I am not going to go through the budget with everybody but life is expensive.

I find that in this culture we seize on anyone who makes money as “the enemy” We are conditioned to see that as the case. To rile the masses against our neighbor. We are not poor. We have so much we could cut. And so much more we could spend. We have been poor. We have had more disposable income than we do now. The point is that many people see their bills and go “man, how are we going to swing this?” and the answer always seems to be ok. I have never starved, I have never been put in debtors prison. And neither have my friends who make significantly less or more than we do.

While making a livable wage is something that should be done, this idea that the ones who are middle class should shut up about money problems only shows the real problem and that is that people think, man, if we just made 20k more. Our lives would be amazing! It is not true.

We moved to this horrible place because of 20k more a year. I would give it all back now if I could.

We don’t struggle to get by, and yes, “how am I going to pay for NFL Sunday ticket this year” is not in the same category as how am I going to eat and go to the doctor this year.

The fact of the matter is that every person on here has internet access and a computer. So lets drop the third world poverty cries.
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You are correct. I apologize for anything I may have said that was inappropriate. As a family we do not view ourselves as poor. We have never known hunger, we have AC and heat in the winter, we have electricity, and have no needs that go unmet. We also have internet–my husband is gone a lot and that helps him stay connected to us. I do get that your budget would be easier to manage in many ways, but I think if I were to be honest it would actually cause more difficulties in my own family than it would help. Right now we don’t need to fight about where our money goes–there is no money left to fight about once our bills are paid. That is a good thing in our house because I have a feeling my husband and I would not always agree with each other on the extras. It is hard on a marriage to not see finances in the same light as your spouse. You should not need to defend your family for making a good living. I’m sure your wife worked hard to get to where she is professionally in order to have that income, and you work hard to run the home so she doesn’t need to worry about the way things are while she’s working. For a person to make that good if a income it usually means they spent quite a bit of money to get into that position. There is usually lots of years of school involved, which costs money to achieve. On paper to those if us with smaller income it looks amazing, but I realize that there were probably years–maybe even currently–that much of her salary went to pay for tuition or loans, books, those types of things. I’m sorry you feel the need to defend yourself. I understand the point that you were making. No matter how much money we have, there is going to be something we “need” to spend it on. That isn’t wrong, bad, evil. That is life. Thank you for taking care of your kids. More dads really should do more at home. Take care.
 
I haven’t read every other post, but here in Southern California (coastal) a small family needs around 100k+ to have an okay lifestyle. Teachers make about 45-70k depending on education and experience. The average home price in my town is around 400-450k.

We make a bit more than 100k (maybe 120k) and while we are not poor, the budget is tight. No vacations, older cars, second hand furniture, clothes from Target. Our kids ARE in Catholic school, and the usual music/sports, and we have a private PPO health insurance plan - so we do choose to spend that money on those things instead of eating out or new cars and Pottery Barn furniture. We are squarely middle-class.

If a family here were living on one teacher’s salary, let’s say at 50k, they would probably rent and live a VERY meager existence. It could be done, but wouldn’t be fun.

My in-laws live in Kansas and make around 60k and have “more” stuff than we do. They have more discretionary income and have a bigger, newer home. Newer cars, more vacations. But, they have to live in Kansas. They are from here, so it’s hard for them (the weather mostly.) Still, money goes further in less desirable areas of the country.

So it totally depends on where you live and the income vs. cost of living ratio. If you want to be a teacher, find an area with decent teacher incomes and lower cost of living. Here in California, teaching is more the second income that the wife does while the husband has a higher-paying occupation.
 
HoosierDaddy said:

“While making a livable wage is something that should be done, this idea that the ones who are middle class should shut up about money problems only shows the real problem and that is that people think, man, if we just made 20k more. Our lives would be amazing! It is not true.”

Yeah, as a public service, it is really important to try to get people not to think that thought. Resources are always finite–desires are infinite. There’s always something MORE that one wants that one can’t have. Some of those desires are more defensible or basic than others, but they are always there.

There’s an interesting idea called the “hedonic treadmill.” From the Wikipedia entry, “According to this theory, as a person makes more money, expectations and desires rise in tandem, which results in no permanent gain in happiness.” Fun!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

“We moved to this horrible place because of 20k more a year. I would give it all back now if I could.”

Now you know what the 20k was paying for.
 
To the OP,

You can find calculators online that will compare cost of living in different cities which you might find helpful. It really does make a big difference where you live how much income you need because housing and food costs vary. This is true even within some states.
 
Hunbleandlost16 said:
I was wondering if you call could give me some ideas of what you consider to be a livable wage (salary) What are some of yours? Especially those of you who have one parent staying at home? Also how many kids to you support with your salary? I would like to get a rough idea of my salary requirements for my future. I am really thinking about going into teaching but the salary worries me.
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Just my opinion based on my experiences… while it’s good to consider finances, listen to your heart and pray for guidance - if you’re being called to teaching, by all means go into teaching and then figure the rest out.

Most miserable years of my life were spent working in the field I got my degree in because it was a “safe” field economically. :o

Both my adult daughters have chosen college majors that were from “unsafe” fields - and both have not only found employment, but are loving what they do and exceeding my income as well. Thus my belief in following what one discerns as their professional calling rather than solely playing the economic game.

On the subject of income - we raised/are raising six kids on my spouse’s mid-five figure income.

There are definitely trade-offs, but it can be done. And I think that’s what other posters have basically pointed out. It’s not so much your income - it’s your choices and priorities. We live in what’s considered a “slum” for our area - though to anyone who’s actually seen one, it’s not even close to that. 🙂 Mortgage is around $650 a month. But it’s rather small - one bathroom, kids share rooms, etc. To us, these inconveniences are not a big deal - we grew up in one bathroom / shared room houses. 🤷 To others they might be intolerable.

On the other hand, our kids participate/have participated in some rather pricey activities such as show choir and travel soccer. To us, the expense was worth it (the kids also worked to help pay for it) - even though that meant other things got set aside (such as I’m looking right now at the drapes - originals that came with the house and are almost 2 decades old). It’s all about the trade-offs. From choices about eating out to choices about transportation - each family needs to make their own decisions about what they’ll pick.

There is so many choices to be made regarding money, it’s always possible to find a cheaper (or pricier) way of living - the key is to know your priorities and be in agreement with them with your spouse.
 
It all depends on where you live and what kind of standard of living that you aspire to. There are large families in rural America who live on low incomes but have good education and moral standards. There are huge income variations in large cities and the different priced neighborhoods can have serious safety implications.
 
Xantippe said:
I suggest reading the following books:

The Millionaire Next Door (it’s about how moderate income people like teachers are quite capable of zealously saving and actually outpacing higher earners)
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I really like this one, but it is kind of old now, and NOT advice. It is a summary of statistical findings and a lot of questions. What are the decisions different people make, and what are the results. You definitely can do this as a teacher (or whatever).

More, I like that it gets into the pitfalls of various professions. If you are a “high wage earner” (and that isn’t business owner), there are a lot of expenses that go along with the image in terms of expectations of clothing, food, housing, cars, etc.

It really is an interesting read. I know my wife and I definitely have some of the good characteristics, and definitely have some of the pitfalls.
 
JSSD said:

“I really like this one, but it is kind of old now, and NOT advice. It is a summary of statistical findings and a lot of questions. What are the decisions different people make, and what are the results. You definitely can do this as a teacher (or whatever). More, I like that it gets into the pitfalls of various professions. If you are a “high wage earner” (and that isn’t business owner), there are a lot of expenses that go along with the image in terms of expectations of clothing, food, housing, cars, etc.”

Yes. If one were updating that book today, I think one would probably talk about student loans, as a number of the classic high earning professions come with steep student loans these days. Combine those loans (which can be equivalent to a good-size mortgage) with the traditional expectations about lifestyle described in “The Millionaire Next Door” and you have a recipe for disaster.
 
Come to think of it, one piece of advice I would suggest for the aspiring father of a growing family is to think seriously about ways to develop a second or third income stream. There’s a line from an old Russian comedy that I often quote in this context. It’s a half-serious curse, “May you live on just your salary!”

Aside from creating extra income, there is some security in knowing that if you lose one stream of income, the other one or two are probably OK.

For instance, I believe some teachers are starting to sell sample lesson plans online.

In any case, being debt-free and building savings will make your income (whatever it turns out to be) go farther.
 
Xantippe said:
JSSD said:

“I really like this one, but it is kind of old now, and NOT advice. It is a summary of statistical findings and a lot of questions. What are the decisions different people make, and what are the results. You definitely can do this as a teacher (or whatever). More, I like that it gets into the pitfalls of various professions. If you are a “high wage earner” (and that isn’t business owner), there are a lot of expenses that go along with the image in terms of expectations of clothing, food, housing, cars, etc.”

Yes. If one were updating that book today, I think one would probably talk about student loans, as a number of the classic high earning professions come with steep student loans these days. Combine those loans (which can be equivalent to a good-size mortgage) with the traditional expectations about lifestyle described in “The Millionaire Next Door” and you have a recipe for disaster.
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If I remember the book correctly, we should aspire to become high net-worth individuals as opposed to high-earning individuals. One path to that is owning a small business. Another is spending frugally. Our last two cars were used cars with less than 30,000 miles on them. They have worked out great for us.

Don’t get me started on student loans. The government opened up a ready source of cash to the universities, and they ran with it, saddling an entire generation with humongous debt. My plan, if I was emperor, would be to roll tuition back to the year 2000 rate, and tie increases to the CPI (maybe plus one or two points). Any tuition increase higher than that would make the university ineligible for federally-guaranteed student loans. That would keep tuition in check and stop the madness of these liberal universities creating useless departments.

I would also require every university to send each student a brochure on career earnings prospects for their major when they are accepted into an upper-level college.
 
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