Live As Brother and Sister

[rick43235]

In another thread where the OP was having problems with his application for an annulment, another poster offered this :

My only advice to you is that you two live as brother and sister until this matter can be cleared up.

I see this particular bit of advice offered somewhat frequently on CAF, so I assume it must be an accepted concept among Catholics. However, CAF is the ONLY place I’ve ever heard the term, “live as brother and sister.” Although I have been going to mass every Sunday for several years with my Catholic wife, and I even attended RCIA for a few months, I have never heard this idea expressed anywhere other than here. I guess my question is, is this idea really commonly accepted among rank-and-file Catholics, or is it a concept that is accepted only among CAF-ers (who seem to a bit more, uhhh…conservative…that your typical Catholic)?

 

[Lancer]

I can’t answer your broader question…but re: “conservative” (a political term which is unfit for religious definitions) at CAF…I understand you use this with no ill intent…but the correct terminology should be orthodox.…versus heterodox…:

Orthodoxy (orthodoxeia) signifies right belief or purity of faith. Right belief is not merely subjective, as resting on personal knowledge and convictions, but is in accordance with the teaching and direction of an absolute extrinsic authority. This authority is the Church founded by Christ, and guided by the Holy Ghost. .** He, therefore, is orthodox, whose faith** coincides with the teachings of the Catholic Church. As divine revelation forms the deposit of faith entrusted to the Church for man’s salvation, it also, with the truths clearly deduced from it, forms the object and content of orthodoxy.

newadvent.org/cathen/11330a.htm

Heterodoxy

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This article is about the religious use of the term heterodoxy. For the conservative newsmagazine published in the United States, please see Heterodoxy (magazine).
Heterodoxy includes “any opinions or doctrines at variance with an official or orthodox position”.[1] As an adjective, heterodox is used to describe a subject as “characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards” (status quo). The noun heterodoxy is synonymous with unorthodoxy, while the adjective heterodox is synonymous with dissident.

Besides orthodoxy vice heterodoxy…there is one other important principle…orthopraxis

The meaning of , i.e. right acting, is determined with great precision: It is a code of rituals…following the Church’s guidelines…not just in fidelity of faith (beliefs of the Church)… but also in right actions.

So…the term…conservative is a misleading and inappropriate identification for religious belief…but it does make it easier to be outside of the teachings of the Church…by simply being able to label oneself or a group as liberal or progressive versus conservative…it sounds so much better…even gives those who refuse to accept the Magisterium, (the Pope and all he bishops in communion with him)…i.e., the Catechism and official teachings of the Catholic Church…a “sense” of righteousness…but in “sense” only…becasue in theological fact…they who are with heterodox beliefs and practices…are not in full communion with the Catholic Church…they have become an "authority unto themselves!

Luke 10:16 (NIV)

Jesus Sends Out his Seventy-two Disciples

16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

For your consideration…
Pax Christi

 

[rick43235]

^^
Thanks, I guess.

 

[I_A]

I think I’ve heard it expressed in that euphemism on a call in Catholic radio show before.

 

[Just_Lurking]

I see this particular bit of advice offered somewhat frequently on CAF, so I assume it must be an accepted concept among Catholics.

Not really - CAF isn’t the greatest place to get accurate advice about one’s living situations. Try a priest or a canon lawyer if you have a situation that really affects you personally.

Think about it: According to the CAF common wisdom, it is completely unacceptable for a divorced person without an annulment to even think about dating someone else, because they are still married in God’s eyes. So how can it be acceptable for such a person to enter into a civil marriage with someone else, but it’s okay because they are “living as brother and sister”. By that logic, dating would be okay as long as they “dated as brother and sister”, i.e., without sex, which is the only way people are supposed to date anyway.

 

[Just_Lurking]

I can’t answer your broader question…but re: “conservative” (a political term which is unfit for religious definitions) at CAF…I understand you use this with no ill intent…but the correct terminology should be orthodox.…versus heterodox…

An orthodox Catholic can believe that it is possible for the Catholic Church to change canon law to allow women to be ordained as deacons. However, I would hardly call such a Catholic “conservative”, nor are there many such folk here at CAF.

 

[PaulinVA]

rick, what have you heard?

If you happen to find yourself in an irregular marriage, for whatever reason ( and could be married in the Church’s eyes to someone else), the advice I’ve heard most often is that you want to avoid acts of adultery, the solution to which would be “living like brother and sister”.

People on CAF tend to be people seeking advice, people wanting to give advice, people who want to know more about the Catholic faith, people who want to argue about the Catholic faith.

I wouldn’t call people here only conservative in the religious sense, but more properly I would call them informed about the faith.

 

[kage_ar]

I hear it in Mass when the teaching is on marriage, I hear it in RCIA often (have been on the team for years)…

The idea is that people have already MADE the mistake of getting married outside the Church. The BEST thing is for them to separate until marriage issues are made clear. That is not always possible (children, expenses,) so the alternative to putting the children and a non-working parent in a homeless shelter is to live as brother and sister.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

An orthodox Catholic can believe that it is possible for the Catholic Church to change canon law to allow women to be ordained as deacons. However, I would hardly call such a Catholic “conservative”, nor are there many such folk here at CAF.

Actually, I would call that heterodox for sure. An orthodox Catholic believes that ordination to diaconate is also reserved for men. It’s a matter of sacramental theology, not canon law.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Actually, I would call that heterodox for sure. An orthodox Catholic believes that ordination to diaconate is also reserved for men. It’s a matter of sacramental theology, not canon law.

I think you’ve just proved my point about CAF.

P.S. So as not to derail this thread any more, please move further discussion on ordaining women to the diaconate to this thread, and see my posts #16 and #18.

 

[x1980x]

I believe that this is mentioned early on in the Shepherd of Hermas.

 

[evidence]

Living as brother and sister is not only morally obligatory in certain situations, but can even be a virtuous decision made between spouses
For grave reasons. It is called a Josephite marraige(Mary and Joseph lived as brother and sister) and many saints have lived their lives that way.(St Isidore for example)

 

[StrawberryJam]

In another thread where the OP was having problems with his application for an annulment, another poster offered this :

I see this particular bit of advice offered somewhat frequently on CAF, so I assume it must be an accepted concept among Catholics. However, CAF is the ONLY place I’ve ever heard the term, “live as brother and sister.” Although I have been going to mass every Sunday for several years with my Catholic wife, and I even attended RCIA for a few months, I have never heard this idea expressed anywhere other than here. I guess my question is, is this idea really commonly accepted among rank-and-file Catholics, or is it a concept that is accepted only among CAF-ers (who seem to a bit more, uhhh…conservative…that your typical Catholic)?

It’s probably as accepted as teaching on birth control. IOW, it’s ignored by the majority.

 

[cecilia97]

It’s probably as accepted as teaching on birth control. IOW, it’s ignored by the majority.

Good thing faith and the Church are not a democracy.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Good thing faith and the Church are not a democracy.

The rules on birth control are very clear. Yet, this is not stopping many from ignoring her on the matter.

 

[cecilia97]

The rules on birth control are very clear. Yet, this is not stopping many from ignoring her on the matter.

And that’s very sad…I even used to be one of them. I blame poor catechesis, lukewarm preaching, and lax consciences bred by our modern society. And ESPECIALLY the pride for which we humans are famous…that we always think we know better than authority.

But, even if zero Catholics followed the teaching on ABC, the Church would still be correct in her teaching.

 

[puzzleannie]

In another thread where the OP was having problems with his application for an annulment, another poster offered this :

I see this particular bit of advice offered somewhat frequently on CAF, so I assume it must be an accepted concept among Catholics. However, CAF is the ONLY place I’ve ever heard the term, “live as brother and sister.” Although I have been going to mass every Sunday for several years with my Catholic wife, and I even attended RCIA for a few months, I have never heard this idea expressed anywhere other than here. I guess my question is, is this idea really commonly accepted among rank-and-file Catholics, or is it a concept that is accepted only among CAF-ers (who seem to a bit more, uhhh…conservative…that your typical Catholic)?

general answer: it is a solution for a couple in an invalid marriage who are unable to separate (permanently or short-term) because of good reasons, usually raising minor children, while they work on convalidating their marriage, which might include waiting for an annulment. It is also a solution for those who have already contracted a 2nd marriage, and now have found no annulment will be granted.

Specific answer: each couple should visit their pastor together to reveal ALL facts about current and previous marriages and follow his advice, and visit him separately in the confessional for personal counsel on any thing related to marriage that may present a situation of continuing sin. No deacon, sister, lay person, catechist, RCIA director or anyone else should be giving this pastoral advice to specific individuals on matters that belong in the confessional. Those persons just listed do have a solemn duty to present the full Catholic teaching on marriage and sexuality to those entrusted to them in an RCIA or Confirmation class, or who come for marriage prep and the like. But it is most prudent in a class setting to present the teaching, ascertain specifics about an indivual’s situation in the private interview, and refer those who need it to the priest for pastoral care.

 

[evidence]

Its not quite birth control…for example a couple in the process of getting an annulment(if a marraige is annulled, it would mean they were never married to begin with) would possibly be in mortal sin for having sex.

Also, I believe I heard that Priests from the earliest Centuries were asked to live josephite marraiges(if they were married). I dont have a reference for that…maybe someone can help me there?

Heres a quote from this review of a book about married Saints and Blesseds…it helps clarify josephite marraiges a little.

The author begins his account with the most holy marriage of all, that of
Our Lady and St Joseph, rightly defending it as a real marriage, though
lived virginally by mutual consent. The term ‘Josephite’ is then used to
describe later saintly unions that followed this rare form of married
love. To a post-Freudian mindset, such a decision at the outset of
matrimony, must seem at least unnatural, at worst perverse. It can only be
understood in a Christian context. A recent example of such a Josephite
marriage is that of Blessed Bartolo Longo, who died in 1926, and his wife,
Marianna de Fusco. United in good works for the Church, they chose to
sacrifice the conjugal expression of their love ‘for the sake of the
kingdom of heaven’. Others, like the saintly parents of St Therese, Louis
and Zelie Martin, practised conjugal continence until directed by their
confessor to raise children for the glory of God.

  Among this long list (the author has found over 200 individuals who were 
  sanctified through their marriage) there are inevitably many who were 
  widowed and who then embraced religious life, often founding new Orders: 
  St Jane de Chantal, St Elizabeth Seton and St Brigid of Sweden are among 
  their number.

In Scripture, 1 Cor 7:4-5 - For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time, to devote yourselves to prayer, and then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Notice, the reason they come together again is not for fun, or just because they can, but so that they do not sin through lack of self-control.