Living in Mortal Sin

[teachccd]

I’m looking for a reasonable explanation of how billions can alter their lives to follow an intangible.

I’m not a “Sheeple”… I won’t follow the herd up the ramp.

I don’t question the fact there is a God - anyone who’s seen the night sky, or walked, camped, and lived in the wilderness can’t deny this… something incredible had to build this!

I’m being confrontational because the replies I get from here & my “Spiritual Leader” are the standard cr*p I lived through as a child… Because I said so… Because the “Book” says so… You’re not worthy to question…just follow…

My wife has handled our obligation to the Church to educate our children in the Faith. My participation has been taxi-driver… not much more.
My oldest is soon to be confirmed… Her desire was that all attending this event be absolved and have gone to confession. I cannot be “cleansed” - I’ve willingly broken the “rules” and have no desire to rectify this…
But my child wants me attend her ceremony in purity. I’d take a (another) bullet for my daughter, or throw myself on a grenade - but I cannot attend her confirmation with an absolved soul… because of the choice I made, and the rules within the Church that say that what I’ve done is wrong.

This is my “rub”…the reason I’ve been attending classes, asking questions.

This does not sound like a statement from the same person who wrote your previous posts. You are VERY confused. I’m not saying that that in and of itself is a bad thing. You would NOT be here or in classes if you were not seeking where God is calling you.

Some said that you are not Catholic. At first, I agreed. however I do believe that you are a very confused Christian. You would not even mention ANYWHERE that you can’t reconcile your having a vasectomy unless your conscience poseeses some adverse thoughts. You are adamant that this is not the case but your posts indicate otherwise.

You acknowledge God. Start there. No rush. Take your time to investigate this Man many, even atheists, know as Jesus. Is He who He said He is??

In your marriage you can see that you love your wife. When you know this love then “rules” apply. Not because they are forced but because they result from that love. You would not commit adultery *because *you love your wife. You would not do anything to forfeit your relationship with her because you love her.

The Catholic Church sees Jesus in that love. We see the revelation of God and what He expects of us in order that we may repect Him and love Him. Just like your wife expects that you won’t cheat on her. God , the God you know in fact exists, gave you life and for that alone you should be thankful.

Where does your having a vasectomy fall into all of this?? I can’t answer that. No one here can. I know that when I had mine I was in a different state of mind. When I realized how that offended God, Whom I love above all things, I repented and confessed. I did not know this to be wrong because some institution pounded it into me. I knew it to be wrong because after I truly understood who Jesus is and filtered through many resources , I came to terms that He did indeed leave a Church to carry on His teachings. Yes, this Church is made up of weak humans who did ( and does) some pretty crazy things. But the doctines ,in regards to faith and morals, of Christ have always remained in tact. that is where my faith rests.

So what should you do?? Continue what you are doing. Tell your daughter that people are on journeys but that not all are at the same place at the same time. You need not go into details but tell her that at this time you are moving forward. I sure hope that you don’t feel that I’ve given you a line of “c**p” as I speak from my heart.

I will pray for you and your family. May God continue to bless you…teachccd

 

[bilop]

I cannot comprehend eternity… what is eternity? I have no reference to it. You are alive, you are dead. What matters to me is what you’ve left behind… be it children, things you’ve done, objects you’ve invented, people you’ve helped.

I don’t understand this.

If there is no God, no eternity, why does anything you leave behind matter?

You’re gone, it over for you. Everything else is just an accident of nature.

Why should you care about your children? That emotion is just a bioc-chemical trick to get you to support them, so they can breed.

If there is nothing beyond this life, then only complete hedonism makes any sense. Maximize your pleasure, and screw everyone else.

But we don’t want to act that way, and IMHO that is the natural law that God has written on our souls.

 

[teachccd]

If there is no eternity then this is the biggest waste of time imaginable. One day the world explodes or the sun does and it’s all over. Wow!! I’m ready for work on monday. We continue to make a better life for future generations for what?? An 80 year lifespan and poof??

Maximize pleasure…ummm let’s see. Well I could have sex with anyone I might be attracted to. Hurt my wife?? Who cares. I could drink myself into oblivion. Job?? Who cares. Someone upsets me?? Kill 'em. No accountability. Police?? OH OH!! WAIT!!

I can’t kill?? I can’t rape?? No drinking in public?? I can’t steal the things that I want?? WHAT!! I can’t maximize pleasure. What to do??? These laws sound like the ten commandments. Oh my… Who started this law stuff? Why would humans make up laws to snuff out our maximum pleasure?? We are so confused…:whacky:

I’m sticking with God and eternity. If you don’t, then you have way more faith than I do. God is a straight forward answer. For starters, not believing in God presents the question of how something came from nothing. My easy faith says that God created. Your more difficult faith has yet to find that answer. Eternal matter or something from nothing?? You have to pick one.

Oh well. I’m off to the Stations of the Cross. Jesus died because of us and our denials. Just imagine…

 

[opticks]

The winner is… Vasectomy.

Just confess about it and you’re forgiven. You’re way ahead of most of us. You never have to worry about committing mortal sin every time you have relations with your wife! Many Catholic men, including myself, live in a constant state of mortal sin due to this very issue.

The vasectomy issue is my #2 issue with the Church. One confession clears up the mortal sin. But the poor guy who avoids the big-V and uses even the simplest form of birth control lives in mortal sin week after week after week.

Since you are probably wondering what #1 is I’ll tell you. It’s the fact that ignorance of a sin as mortal gets one off the hook, but the guy who takes the time to study the theology is now guilty because “he’s in the know.”

 

[dulcissima]

Since you are probably wondering what #1 is I’ll tell you. It’s the fact that ignorance of a sin as mortal gets one off the hook, but the guy who takes the time to study the theology is now guilty because “he’s in the know.”

Sorry, but that doesn’t wash. Our pope, who as Cardinal Ratzinger, spoke in 1991 and said it better than I ever could:

By the way, a look into Sacred Scripture should have precluded such diagnoses and such a theory of justification by the errant conscience. In Psalm 19:12-13, we find the ever worth pondering passage: “But who can discern his errors? Clear thou me from my unknown faults.” That is not Old Testament objectivism, but profoundest human wisdom. No longer seeing one’s guilt, the falling silent of conscience in so many areas, is an even more dangerous sickness of the soul than the guilt which one still recognizes as such. He who no longer notices that killing is a sin has fallen farther than the one who still recognizes the shamefulness of his actions, because the former is further removed form the truth and conversion. Not without reason does the self-righteous man in the encounter with Jesus appear as the one who is really lost. If the tax collector with all his undisputed sins stands more justified before God than the Pharisee with all his undeniably good works (Lk 18:9-14), this is not because the sins of the tax collector were not sins or the good deeds of the Pharisee not good deeds. Nor does it mean that the good that man does is not good before God, or the evil not evil or at least not particularly important. The reason for this paradoxical judgment of God is shown precisely from our question. The Pharisee no longer knows that he too has guilt. He has a completely clear conscience. But this silence of conscience makes him impenetrable to God and men, while the cry of conscience which plagues the tax collector makes him capable of truth and love. Jesus can move sinners. Not hiding behind the screen of their erroneous consciences, they have not become unreachable for the change which God expects of them, and of us. He is ineffective with the “righteous,” because they are not aware of any need for forgiveness and conversion. Their consciences no longer accuse them but justify them.

We find something similar in Saint Paul who tells us, that the pagans, even without the law, knew quite well what God expected of them (Rom 2:1- 16). The whole theory of salvation through ignorance breaks apart with this verse. There is present in man the truth that is not to be repulsed, that one truth of the creator which in the revelation of salvation history has also been put in writing. Man can see the truth of God from the fact of his creaturehood. Not to see it is guilt. It is not seen because man does not want to see it. The “no” of the will which hinders recognition is guilt. The fact that the signal lamp does not shine is the consequence of a deliberate looking away from that which we do not wish to see.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/RATZCONS.HTM

 

[opticks]

Sorry, but that doesn’t wash.

**1857 **For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

**1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

I’m strictly talking about stuff like contraception, masturbation, IVF, etc. If you don’t know something is officially a “grave matter” you cannot be guilty of grave sin. If you do know it’s a grave matter and do it anyway it’s even worse. That’s what I have an issue with.

Am I missing something?

 

[dulcissima]

**1857 **For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

**1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

I’m strictly talking about stuff like contraception, masturbation, IVF, etc. If you don’t know something is officially a “grave matter” you cannot be guilty of grave sin. If you do know it’s a grave matter and do it anyway it’s even worse. That’s what I have an issue with.

Am I missing something?

The key in what the CCC states is that feigned ignorance and hardness of heart actually increase the voluntary character of sin. To think that actually studying theology increases your chance of going to hell is to think that God is not just and acts without reason. The truth is that he is perfectly just and perfectly merciful. He knows when someone can’t be bothered to seek out the truth because they are too attached to sin. He can’t be fooled, and his justice will prevail. At the same time, we can be confident in his mercy. If we have in all honesty sought to do the right thing, but came up short because we truthfully were ignorant or some other reason outside of our control, then he is not going to hold us accountable when we had no chance to make an informed choice.

Your statement that ignorance gets us off the hook but knowledge damns us gives a false impression that our faith can’t stand up to reason. That just isn’t the case.

 

[opticks]

To think that actually studying theology increases your chance of going to hell is to think that God is not just and acts without reason.

Well, I don’t know what God really thinks, but the CCC says if you know an act is grave and do it, you are guilty. However if you are not aware that an act is a grave sin and perform the act (in this post the example is a vasectomy) you are not guilty of grave sin.

This is contradictory to civil/criminal law where your knowledge of the law has nothing to do with the fact you committed a crime.

Therefore, by studying the CCC you have just increased your potential for eternal damnation, according to the CCC itself!

 

[dulcissima]

Well, I don’t know what God really thinks, but the CCC says if you know an act is grave and do it, you are guilty. However if you are not aware that an act is a grave sin and perform the act (in this post the example is a vasectomy) you are not guilty of grave sin.

This is contradictory to civil/criminal law where your knowledge of the law has nothing to do with the fact you committed a crime.

Therefore, by studying the CCC you have just increased your potential for eternal damnation, according to the CCC itself!

You apparently don’t understand the CCC.

 

[opticks]

You apparently don’t understand the CCC.

Then please explain where I have committed a logical foul in my understanding of the theology of grave sin according to para. #1857 and #1859.

 

[angiegirl67]

Yup, there’s always a need for “ditch diggers” and “unskilled worker-bees”… Long live the royalty.
No…this was “Culling of the herd”. Reduction of the draw on the system - Circle of Life - supply & demand.
Humans have altered the system of natural selection. Due to medical and physical influence we are outliving the system designed to support us… Socially and Physically.

Women who cannot conceive via normal intercourse are opting for artificial means… and having litters. Not 1, twins, but SIX+ babies
Rather than accepting the fact they can’t conceive, they turn to artificial means to satisfy their perceived “God given right to be a mother”…“I HAVE TO HAVE A BABY…” the Church seems to wholeheartedly support this act…pump out those babies… keep those Uterus’s filled!

On the flip-side of this I’m condemned because I took conscience means to prevent a pregnancy…I did not kill or abort an existing life, I just took means to prevent one from occurring… within an already established spousal situation. And I’m the bad guy.
.

First of all let me respond to your statement about people using artificial means to conceive. It is also wrong and a mortal sin. The Church does not want you to keep ones uterus filled by any means.

As far as preventing pregnancy that is possible with NFP which requires you to abstain from intercourse during your wifes fertile time. So there were alternatives.

When you married your wife and I’m assuming it was in the Catholic Church. You made a promise to be open to life. By getting a vasectomy you have closed the door on that.

Just so you know there are many many Catholic men in your situation except when they really understand the Churches position on the situation they are often sorry for closing the door to children that God may have intended for them and for offending God. You are different in the fact that you don’t care if you offended God, because you are living in the moment no matter what.

I have to say that it sounds like your daughter is an awesome girl. She really sounds like she has her religious stuff together. For a young girl to have it all together when the world is so filled with bad images, peers pressure, and a largely Godless society you are really really lucky.

If I were you I would do everything I could to understand the Churches teaching, and as far as some sort of proof that you are looking for it is called FAITH. Somethings don’t have a means of proof you just believe because after all you have learned with your intellect it makes sense. Take some time and read about the early church. Go to the www.chnetwork.org read about the early church fathers. It is a staring point.

I really hope you find your way to the confessional for the sake of you soul.

 

[dulcissima]

Just confess about it and you’re forgiven. You’re way ahead of most of us. You never have to worry about committing mortal sin every time you have relations with your wife! Many Catholic men, including myself, live in a constant state of mortal sin due to this very issue.

The vasectomy issue is my #2 issue with the Church. One confession clears up the mortal sin. But the poor guy who avoids the big-V and uses even the simplest form of birth control lives in mortal sin week after week after week.

Since you are probably wondering what #1 is I’ll tell you. It’s the fact that ignorance of a sin as mortal gets one off the hook, but the guy who takes the time to study the theology is now guilty because “he’s in the know.”

I should probably point out that your advice that he is way ahead of “most of us” because he only has to confess once is very dangerous, and I really hope that no one reading it would think it is advisable to run out and get a vasectomy so that they can just confess it and be done with it. You would be compounding your sin by adding to it the sin of presumption, which St. Thomas Aquinas tells us is a sin against the Holy Spirit to inordinately rely on the Divine power to obtain that which is unbecoming to God, to hope to obtain pardon without repenting.

Someone who has been sterilized is not ahead of someone who is contracepting. They have just commited a grave offense against God and will likely never be able to make ammends for that. It also will have an effect on the relationship between spouses, because it removes more permanently their ability to share in a deep and mysterious intimacy not only with eachother, but also with God. I think if someone went from contraception to sterilization, they might not even know what they are missing out on, but they are missing out nonetheless. No longer do they have the oportunity to be co-creators in love, but instead will come to view each other really as a means to pleasure. Love is about so much more than that.

 

[dulcissima]

Then please explain where I have committed a logical foul in my understanding of the theology of grave sin according to para. #1857 and #1859.

" Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin."

How does this support the idea that "ignorance of a sin as mortal gets one off the hook, but the guy who takes the time to study the theology is now guilty because ‘he’s in the know.’ "

I think that because God cared so much for us that he actually became man and lived among us and during his earthly life bothered to establish a living and teaching Church that would guide us on the surest and safest path to sanctity, that we sort of owe it to him to actually put some effort in to studying what it is that the Church teaches and trying to make our way down that narrow road. To suggest that ignorance is the surest way to heaven is to not appreciate all that God has done for us and all that he has given to us.

 

[opticks]

You would be compounding your sin by adding to it the sin of presumption, which St. Thomas Aquinas tells us is a sin against the Holy Spirit to inordinately rely on the Divine power to obtain that which is unbecoming to God, to hope to obtain pardon without repenting.

Why are you dragging St. Aquinas into this? While his writings are undoubtedly influential on the doctrine of the Church, he is one of many Church Fathers and not the deciding factor on what is or is not a sin.

They have just commited a grave offense against God and will likely never be able to make ammends for that.

What?! Any sin is forgivable according to the RCC and every Protestant denomination I know of. Surely you did not mean this…

 

[dulcissima]

What?! Any sin is forgivable according to the RCC and every Protestant denomination I know of. Surely you did not mean this…

Grrrr. I’ve just looked through your other posts and you seem like a very decent person, so I am not sure why I am spending so much time arguing with you…

I was not saying that the sin would could not be forgiven. I would be completely devastated if that were the case since I have commited the same sin myself. It is just this particular sin is one that is not see easy to undo. If you are contracepting, you can stop, but successfully reversing sterilization, that is something else altogether. I am a convert and unfortunately came to really understand Church teaching too late. I think what they Catholic Church teaches about love and intimacy in a marriage is really beautiful and too many people are too willing to cheat themselves out of it without a clue as to what they are giving up.

Sorry for being so picky and argumentative with you. Please don’t take it personally. It’s just that this issue is something that is a little too familiar.

 

[opticks]

" Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin."

How does this support the idea that "ignorance of a sin as mortal gets one off the hook, but the guy who takes the time to study the theology is now guilty because ‘he’s in the know.’ "

It does not and I am not using that statement to support my argument. Forget about that statement. Besides, you cannot feign ignorance if you do not know something is a grave sin in the first place.

Someone who just goes to church but never reads the CCC or something like Humane Vitae will be ignorant of many grave matters. And by the definitions I provided from the CCC the Church would find them not liable for grave sin if they committed these sins!

I think that because God cared so much for us that he actually became man and lived among us and during his earthly life bothered to establish a living and teaching Church that would guide us on the surest and safest path to sanctity, that we sort of owe it to him to actually put some effort in to studying what it is that the Church teaches and trying to make our way down that narrow road. To suggest that ignorance is the surest way to heaven is to not appreciate all that God has done for us and all that he has given to us.

First off, your opinion doesn’t really matter here. We are talking about logical arguments and Church documents. I’m not suggesting that ignorance is a way to heaven, but that somebody who investigates the CCC and HV is now “on the hook” whereas your average parishioner is not because they are in no way required to read such documents and my be blissfully ignorant of something like masturbation or IVF is a grave sin.

The OP’s vasectomy occurred before his knowledge that it was a grave sin. Therefore, according to the CCC he did not commit a grave sin. If he had read the CCC or talked to a priest, he would have known (and thus committed a grave sin), but none of that is required. Therefore he doesn’t even have to confess it!

 

[opticks]

I can’t believe I missed this one:

CCC 1860 “Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense.

What say you about this?

**But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.

This seems completely subjective…what are the “principles of the moral law”? Ask your average parishioner and you will get a blank stare.
**
The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders.

This actually makes sense

**Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.”

**You must know something is grave to fall into this category.

 

[dulcissima]

The OP’s vasectomy occurred before his knowledge that it was a grave sin. Therefore, according to the CCC he did not commit a grave sin. If he had read the CCC or talked to a priest, he would have known (and thus committed a grave sin), but none of that is required. Therefore he doesn’t even have to confess it!

Hi there. It’s me here, still arguing with you. I just went back and read every one of Jay2’s posts in this thread. No where in it does he indicate that he did not know that sterilization is against church teaching. To the contrary.

“If it pisses off the Supreme Being so be it - I’m going to have fun while I’m here.”

“How people can blindly follow something… alter their existance to comply, spend their 80 turns in compliance… with NO physical evidence or guarantee of a payoff! (“Heaven”)”

“And no, I don’t trust the Pope - he’s a man same as you & me. Frankly I don’t trust any man who can willingly give up women and tailor his life around stories in a book.”

“Because the Bible/God/Jesus said so” doesn’t cut it."

“I’m being confrontational because the replies I get from here & my “Spiritual Leader” are the standard cr*p I lived through as a child… Because I said so… Because the “Book” says so… You’re not worthy to question…just follow…”

Sounds to me like he knew the Church taught that it was a sin, he just decided he would trust himself more than he would the Church, the Bible, or God.

Yet you don’t think he even needs to go to confession.

When it comes right down to it, God does not ask for our understanding, he asks for our obedience. To the OP, you are a father of two teenagers, don’t you think you could relate to God just a little bit?

 

[Viki59]

I’m looking for a reasonable explanation of how billions can alter their lives to follow an intangible.

The resurrection of Jesus is clearly a historical fact, since his disciples were sensible men who would not have died by torture and martyrdom unless they were convinced of its truth. That is enough to convince me, after years of struggling with that very question. (Also God has intervened in my life in a clear way, but that won’t convince anyone but me.)

If Jesus rose from the dead, He is doubtless who he said he is, and worthy of being followed. Calling the history and tradition of Christianity “stories in a book” sounds like a high school kid. There is more proof for Jesus’ existence than for George Washington’s.
I suggest that you ask Christ to reveal Himself to you, while sitting in Eucharistic Adoration if possible.
God bless.

 

[jmcrae]

Someone who just goes to church but never reads the CCC or something like Humane Vitae will be ignorant of many grave matters. And by the definitions I provided from the CCC the Church would find them not liable for grave sin if they committed these sins!

For myself, I’m thinking it would be difficult to attend Mass every Sunday, attend Catholic school for 12-13 years, and live among Catholics for a period of, say, 15-20 years, and not encounter these teachings at some point along the way - either because of a friend going through a situation related to one of these teachings, or because of something said at Mass, or something written in the Diocescan magazine, etc.

I have even seen letters to the editor in my local secular newspapers outlining the Church’s teachings on these issues, when they become relevant to something in the news.

Certainly, at least in the better marriage preparation programs (which are becoming more and more common, thanks be to God), these topics are certainly mentioned, and quite often, they are discussed in a fair amount of detail.

I’m not suggesting that ignorance is a way to heaven, but that somebody who investigates the CCC and HV is now “on the hook” whereas your average parishioner is not because they are in no way required to read such documents and my be blissfully ignorant of something like masturbation or IVF is a grave sin.

If someone is blissfully ignorant, then you are right - they would not be in a state of mortal sin. They would still suffer the natural consequences of the sin, however - and even though they wouldn’t be required to confess it, once they find out that it is a sin, the Confessional is really the best place for them to get the advice they need to overcome the natural consequences of the sin, if that is possible - and in the case of habitual sexual sin, the only thing I’ve ever seen work is weekly Confession for a period of time - say, six months to a year - “whether you need it, or not.”