Living in Mortal Sin

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t understand this.

If there is no God, no eternity, why does anything you leave behind matter?

You’re gone, it over for you. Everything else is just an accident of nature.

Why should you care about your children? That emotion is just a bioc-chemical trick to get you to support them, so they can breed.

If there is nothing beyond this life, then only complete hedonism makes any sense. Maximize your pleasure, and screw everyone else.

But we don’t want to act that way, and IMHO that is the natural law that God has written on our souls.

The problem here (I think) is that you’ve given a good justification for what William James criticises as “medical materialism”; for if we are aggregates of bio-chemical phenomena, what we might otherwise think to be a grace (or other heavenly or Divine thing) coming from “beyond” us, can easily be interpreted as our bio-chemistry playing up.​

There is no way - given the OP’s starting point - that one can plausibly identify anything as “of God”: St. Faustina thought she saw Christ; but it was only her body chemistry reacting to her (far from comfortable) way of life. Alphonse Ratisbonne thought he saw the BVM in a church in Rome - it was his nervous system reacting on his subconscious. St.Paul thought he saw Christ on the road to Damascus - it was his body chemistry acting on his suppressed feelings of guilt. If we feel a lightening o the spirit after Confession, that too is a function of our brains & bodies; one that, in the circumstances, could have been predicted.

At the very least, it does seem just too co-incidental that mystical phenomena & “the religious life” (in the technical sense) have often gone together. If St. Margaret Mary Alacocque had lived “in the world”, rather than been a professed religious, would she have had visions of the Sacred Heart ? Inadequate diet would go a long way to account for such things as visions.

IOW, this “medical materialism” accounts for the phenomena; God becomes a needless hypothesis, who cannot be discerned by any of us, because (even if He does exist), there is no way of telling God from our own biochemistry. What I call an act of charity, is merely my cerebral cortex playing up - there is nothing there; one is merely conditioned by hundreds of thousands of years of inherited habit, to think that there is. If God did not exist in 200,000 BC, He’s not going to exist now - & our wanting Him to, or believing He does, isn’t going to alter that.

There’s a story in DC Comics about the origins of Superman; not the usual one in which he comes from Krypton, but a version in which Superman comes into existence because Jerry Siegel & Joe Schuster bring him into existence by sheer force of believing in his existence. I suspect that this is how a lot of people think of God - that He can be made real, by being believed into existence. But if God does not exist, or cannot be known, then most religions are a waste of time

It’s true that C.S. Lewis deals with something like the medical materialist kind of thinking in a chapter in “The Silver Chair”, & also in “The Last Battle” (there is more good theology in the seven “Narnian Chronicles” than in the works of most “professional” theologians, IMNSHO): but he doesn’t refute this kind of thinking; I don’t think it can be refuted.

 

[mark_a]

Years ago I did something of my own free will, and for my own reasons that are against the Church.

I have no intention of correcting this, and am not the least bit sorry or remorseful for it… given the exact same circumstances I would do it again. This isn’t something like dinging a door in a parking lot - I will carry this until the day I die.

(Nobody died, nothing was stolen, my parent’s honor is intact, and there was no adultery involved. I hold no secrets from my wife, and she is fully aware of this act. She has confessed her knowledge/involvement, and received absolution.)

I haven’t been to confession in a very long time because of this … very long meaning years.

I don’t want “partial absolution” - clean the slate except for that one big one at the top of the list - it’s all or nothing.

Thoughts?

Something has changed within you to even post the question. Maybe you don’t realize it yet. Maybe your wife’s prayers are having an affect on your own self reliance. Maybe you do need God.

Not to mention the sperm antibodies your body is producing that can slowly choke the life out of your brain.

 

[teachccd]

Someone who has been sterilized is not ahead of someone who is contracepting. They have just commited a grave offense against God and will likely never be able to make ammends for that. It also will have an effect on the relationship between spouses, because it removes more permanently their ability to share in a deep and mysterious intimacy not only with eachother, but also with God. I think if someone went from contraception to sterilization, they might not even know what they are missing out on, but they are missing out nonetheless. No longer do they have the oportunity to be co-creators in love, but instead will come to view each other really as a means to pleasure. Love is about so much more than that.

Thank you, Mr. God. After your wife reaches menopause your relations had better stop. It’s then meaningless. I’ll tell my confessor that you know more than he does.

Yes what the Church teaches is right with God. But before you cast stones… well you know the rest, maybe… God bless you and give you enlightenment…teachccd

 

[dulcissima]

Thank you, Mr. God. After your wife reaches menopause your relations had better stop. It’s then meaningless. I’ll tell my confessor that you know more than he does.

Yes what the Church teaches is right with God. But before you cast stones… well you know the rest, maybe… God bless you and give you enlightenment…teachccd

I think you are really not understanding what I was saying, and I am not casting stones. I am sharing MY PAIN of having gone through a tubal ligation, after being coerced by my husband, and knowing that there is really NO WAY to take it back. I am refuting someone who thinks sterilization is much better than contraception because you can just confess it and be done. I am saying that is not the case because you have just permanently altered your body and will have to live with the consequences of sin for the rest of your life. I don’t want anyone to be left with the impression that you just go through sterilization, go to confession, are forgiven and life is grand. I’m sorry I seem to lack the ability of effectively communicating that.

 

[teachccd]

I think you are really not understanding what I was saying, and I am not casting stones. I am sharing MY PAIN of having gone through a tubal ligation, after being coerced by my husband, and knowing that there is really NO WAY to take it back. I am refuting someone who thinks sterilization is much better than contraception because you can just confess it and be done. I am saying that is not the case because you have just permanently altered your body and will have to live with the consequences of sin for the rest of your life. I don’t want anyone to be left with the impression that you just go through sterilization, go to confession, are forgiven and life is grand. I’m sorry I seem to lack the ability of effectively communicating that.

No, I lacked the ability to understand. I stand corrected and apologize. Sometimes I have to learn to follow a thread and not jump in haphazardly.

Your post is correct and I totally agree as one who also lives with those consequences. God Bless you this Holy Week…teachccd

 

[opticks]

I am saying that is not the case because you have just permanently altered your body and will have to live with the consequences of sin for the rest of your life. I don’t want anyone to be left with the impression that you just go through sterilization, go to confession, are forgiven and life is grand.

Hmmm…perhaps you were not paying attention in Mass today. Please tell me what Jesus said to the thief hanging on the Cross next to him? He did not ask if he was living in sin or even what he had done.

Catholic theology does not condemn one who confesses their sin no matter what!

If it does, please show me where. All I hear is personal opinion about what God thinks, which is meaningless–you do not know the will of God. Period.

 

[dulcissima]

Hmmm…perhaps you were not paying attention in Mass today. Please tell me what Jesus said to the thief hanging on the Cross next to him? He did not ask if he was living in sin or even what he had done.

Catholic theology does not condemn one who confesses their sin no matter what!

If it does, please show me where. All I hear is personal opinion about what God thinks, which is meaningless–you do not know the will of God. Period.

I was paying attention in Mass today, and my first post on this thread was urging the OP to go to confession. I took exception to you saying:

"Just confess about it and you’re forgiven. You’re way ahead of most of us. You never have to worry about committing mortal sin every time you have relations with your wife! Many Catholic men, including myself, live in a constant state of mortal sin due to this very issue.

The vasectomy issue is my #2 issue with the Church. One confession clears up the mortal sin. But the poor guy who avoids the big-V and uses even the simplest form of birth control lives in mortal sin week after week after week."

Your post could serve as encouragement to someone who is using birth control to get a vasectomy because they just need to confess once and they’re done with it. We should be encouraging people who are using birth control to give it up, and not suggest that they would be “way ahead” if they had a vasectomy. One should never commit a mortal sin just because they know that they can go to confession.

What on earth are you thinking?

 

[LilyM]

Hmmm…perhaps you were not paying attention in Mass today. Please tell me what Jesus said to the thief hanging on the Cross next to him? He did not ask if he was living in sin or even what he had done.

Catholic theology does not condemn one who confesses their sin no matter what!

If it does, please show me where. All I hear is personal opinion about what God thinks, which is meaningless–you do not know the will of God. Period.

Christ is God incarnate, omniscient, remember - he didn’t NEED to ask whether the woman caught in adultery or the Good Thief was genuinely sorry, he knew they were. Didn’t need to ask what the thief had done, he knew. Priests are surprisingly good but not that good

And to plan on sinning and then going to confesion is called presuming on God’s mercy, which is a grave sin in itself.

Confession is not a vending machine process where you can just go through the motions and plug in the appropriate words and obtain forgiveness. There has to be a genuine level of awareness that you’ve done wrong and genuine sorrow for and detestation of your sin.

And no sense of ‘well, I committed this sin to avoid a bigger one’. That shows a lack of faith in God who desires you never to commit any sin and will help you to avoid all sin if you but ask and trust in his ability, and exercise a modicum of good sense and self-discipline.

All of these factors are doubtful to say the least in one who calculatedly plans on committing sin and going to confession afterwards.

 

[opticks]

Your post could serve as encouragement to someone who is using birth control to get a vasectomy because they just need to confess once and they’re done with it. We should be encouraging people who are using birth control to give it up, and not suggest that they would be “way ahead” if they had a vasectomy. One should never commit a mortal sin just because they know that they can go to confession.

What on earth are you thinking?

I agree we should encourage people to give up BC. No problems there.

But I’m thinking there is a logical loophole in Catholic theology which allows people to get a vasectomy, confess about it, and go on their merry way, not having to worry about committing grave sin multiple times a week.

I have friends who are in this situation. Catholic converts who are all to happy to embrace the BC teachings–after the big V of course…the rest of us just keep sinning.

I said the OP was “way ahead” because he is! He never has to admit week after week that he’s using BC of some sort. He’s a model Catholic…barf.

I get the feeling you are beating yourself up for a tubal. But if you are truly sorry and have confessed, what’s the deal? You are forgiven, end of statement. What is all this “sins are forever” nonsense? I’m not the only poster to call you out on this…

 

[opticks]

And to plan on sinning and then going to confesion is called presuming on God’s mercy, which is a grave sin in itself.

Where is this sin spelled out in Catholic theology? Can you cite a CCC paragraph or an encyclical? I’ve never heard of that, but it seems contrary to the mission of the Church and makes the Sacrament of Reconciliation irrelevent. If what the Church does on Earth is bound in Heaven (i.e. forgive your sin) than how can God not also forgive you?

Thank you for advancing the post!

 

[dulcissima]

I agree we should encourage people to give up BC. No problems there.

But I’m thinking there is a logical loophole in Catholic theology which allows people to get a vasectomy, confess about it, and go on their merry way, not having to worry about committing grave sin multiple times a week.

I have friends who are in this situation. Catholic converts who are all to happy to embrace the BC teachings–after the big V of course…the rest of us just keep sinning.

I said the OP was “way ahead” because he is! He never has to admit week after week that he’s using BC of some sort. He’s a model Catholic…barf.

I get the feeling you are beating yourself up for a tubal. But if you are truly sorry and have confessed, what’s the deal? You are forgiven, end of statement. What is all this “sins are forever” nonsense? I’m not the only poster to call you out on this…

The big deal is the consequence of the sin. Birth control destroys intimacy. It ruins marriages. Permanent birth control is no loophole.

To the outside observer my husband looked like a model Catholic with our four children. He certainly liked to brag that he was. However the truth was that all four of them were conceived while using birth control. When I was pregnant the first time, he actually tried to convince me to have an abortion since we weren’t “ready” to have children. Thankfully that was one of the few times I didn’t let him have his way.

Since we were contracepting, there was no moderation to his demands, and I thought I was being a good wife. I really had no idea the degree to which I was being used and the complete lack of regard he had for me as a person. With each pregnancy, he would get upset and say that he would get a vasectomy and each time I was able to persuade him not to. Finally with our fourth child, when we found out I would need a c-section due to my son being transverse and with the cord wrapped around his neck, I was told to have a tubal. I signed the consent.

The three plus years that we were together after that became progressively worse. He demanded sex not just once a day but multiple times. I came to finally understand a lot of the thought that went into the Catholic teachings on sexuality within a marriage. I tried talking to him about how a woman’s enjoyment has a lot to do with emotion, and he said he knew all about it. There was nothing so good as “I hate that bi*#ch sex.” I soon found out that he had a secret pornography addiction. I felt like complete trash. I finally started saying no to him, only to find out that no wasn’t an option.

So, sure he looked like a great Catholic, and people who can’t conceive or who have suffered miscarriages look like they are contracepting. They are the real saints though.

Like I said, contraception destroys marriages and I have the divorce (and restraining order) to prove it. I know that my case is extreme, but I think little by little those who contracept let lust creep in and replace sacrificial love. I would only hope that they learned the truth about contraception before they go and choose it as a permanent option. Sure someone who has a vasectomy can be forgiven, but they still have to live with the consequence of their sin. They would be so much better off if they learned the concept of sacrifice and self-mastery.

 

[LilyM]

opticks:

Where is this sin spelled out in Catholic theology? Can you cite a CCC paragraph or an encyclical? I’ve never heard of that, but it seems contrary to the mission of the Church and makes the Sacrament of Reconciliation irrelevent. If what the Church does on Earth is bound in Heaven (i.e. forgive your sin) than how can God not also forgive you?

Thank you for advancing the post!

Pleasure :tiphat:

For starters read the section of the Catechism on the Sacrament of Reconciliation (paragraphs 1422 and following) - there are many references to the requirement of genuine sorrow for sin and genuine intention to sin no more. These are an essential part of the sacrament. One example:

*[1491] The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest’s absolution. The penitent’s acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation. *

So we can see that penitent and priest both need to act together to effect the sacrament. Both have obligations and requirements.

Much as a husband and wife together confect the sacrament of Matrimony, or the Minister who confects the Eucharist and the recepient both need to work together for it to be effective for that recepient.

Then again in the section on the Ten Commandments, under the heading of the first commandment, we come across a definition of presumption:

***[2092] **There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (***hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion ***and glory without merit). *(my bolding)

 

[opticks]

***[2092] ***There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (***hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion ***and glory without merit). (my bolding)

That paragraph does not get you out of the hole…it just says if someone has not “converted” (which I assume here to mean “truly sorry”) he is not forgiven…and where does it say this is a grave sin?

Again, if somebody does something grave, is truly sorry for it (to satisfy #2092), then they are forgiven. Right?

So if somebody has a vasectomy and repents a few years later, they are forgiven. But if their buddy is using the withdrawal method, he is going to Hell. Right?

 

[Pug]

Where is this sin spelled out in Catholic theology?

I think sometimes folks commonly describe presumption as planning on sinning and then going to confession, but that is not what they mean (I hope). I assume they mean planing on sinning and then going to confession without actually repenting or some similar condition or addition to the bare facts. It is classic presumption to think you are going to get a pass without repentance or doing anything, and just figuring God is nice so he will forgive you anyway, even though you are obdurate in sin.

Some sinners are drawn to sin, and they plan on doing it, but they know they usually regret it later and so they truly hope they will repent afterwards, if they don’t get hit by a bus first, which they realize is a possibility. This isn’t presumption on God’s mercy in the most obvious sense. Perhaps the Catholic Encyclopedia’s short article could be helpful.

 

[opticks]

It is classic presumption to think you are going to get a pass without repentance or doing anything, and just figuring God is nice so he will forgive you anyway, even though you are obdurate in sin.

So wait a second. All this:

“God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; **through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

**means nothing?

You are either forgiven at Reconciliation or you are not. Which is it?

If you attach other requirements, then the sacrament means nothing because then only God can truly forgive, and you have just denied the words, “what is bound on Earth is also bound in Heaven” and made the Church no more powerful than the preacher down the street!

 

[nomolos]

Well the poster said
The winner is… Vasectomy.
12 years ago.

Ashamed? No
Sorry? No
Feel bad? No
Gonna have it reversed? Not until after menopause.

Why go to confession if he knows it can be reversed, but won’t. He would then be bringing judgement upon himself. Just as Paul say’s in 1Corinthians5:5. It sounds kinda harsh but it will save him. Maybe? I don’t know.

 

[dulcissima]

I don’t think it is reasonable to require someone to undergo an expensive and invasive surgery that likely won’t work. I know I have seen on the AAA forum that it is not required. I think what is more important is sincere sorrow for the sin, and to make a real effort to practice moderation in relations and to not treat one’s spouses as an object for their own pleasure. The way that God designed the cycle of fertility would naturally take care of this, but once you no longer need to give fertility any consideration, the onus is on you.

 

[nomolos]

He had this Vasectomy so that he could have sex without having a child. Yet he wants to be part of the Catholic community, I understand that there are others that are doing things under the cover darkness, but he plainly feels no remorse and not willing to convert. Look at his answer on reversal “not until menopause”. Meaning he will wait till she can no longer conceive child to reverse this. That is like an assasin saying " I will stop killing only when I run out of bullets ", oh course he is going to stop he ran out of ammo.
Do you think it is reasonable to sacrafice your first child because you sinned???

 

[dulcissima]

He had this Vasectomy so that he could have sex without having a child. Yet he wants to be part of the Catholic community, I understand that there are others that are doing things under the cover darkness, but he plainly feels no remorse and not willing to convert. Look at his answer on reversal “not until menopause”. Meaning he will wait till she can no longer conceive child to reverse this. That is like an assasin saying " I will stop killing only when I run out of bullets ", oh course he is going to stop he ran out of ammo.
Do you think it is reasonable to sacrafice your first child because you sinned???

I’m pretty sure that the “not until menopause” was a joke, and that he does not intend to have it reversed at any time. Also, at his age and his wife’s age, even if he was to have it reversed now there is little chance that she would get pregnant, so I doubt it would do much to convert his heart.

Really, all that is required of him is that he feel sorry for having the vasectomy because God could punish him with hell. Imperfect contrition at confession is still acceptable.

He is still going to have to live with the consequence of his sin, but then again with his “those 80 turns are MINE” attitude he might not pick up on those nuances. Oh well, there’s always purgatory.

 

[dulcissima]

(Sorry to be busting on you, Jay2. Truthfully I am praying for your conversion of heart.)