Living together before marriage

[setter]

It has EVERYTHING to do with the issue at hand because as some people have said, it’s possible to live together as roommates BEFORE marriage and not have sexual relations. The scandal is in the eye of the beholder, hence Luke 6: 41-42 rings true. I’d examine my OWN life before poking my nose into what others are doing.

It is obvious that you will continue to ignore the obvious fact and essential point of reality that any pre-marriage Catholic couple living together can only give the impression of impropriety to others, and hence a counter-witness to the gospel.

Your repeated exclusive focus on the personal periphery of this unmarried cohabitating couple, to the exclusion of the wider Church and societal community in which they are subsumed, and the counter-gospel witness that their public appearance of impropriety, all but belies the me-first mentality of many American Catholics. A me-centered/us-first consideration and focus on living out one’s faith is simply counter-gospel. It lacks an awareness, responsibility and balance to the reality of the greater community at hand. St. Paul would have a belly laugh if this “what one/couple does in the privacy of their house is between themselves and God” mentality if person’s/couple’s personal behavior had a public witness component as such (if only in the potential).

Before accusing others of poking their nose where in other’s personal but NOT private business, this Catholic couple ought to first consider the potential or actual, known or unknown, impact of their living arrangement on others. But, then this may necessitate a wider sense of consider and that they are indeed an extension of the Body of Christ giving credible (or scandalous) witness in the fallen world in which we walk in discipleship to Christ.

**2472 **The duty of Christians to take part in the life of the Church impels them to act as *witnesses of the Gospel *and of the obligations that flow from it. This witness is a transmission of the faith in words and deeds. Witness is an act of justice that establishes the truth or makes it known.

All Christians by the example of their lives and the witness of their word, wherever they live, have an obligation to manifest the new man which they have put on in Baptism and to reveal the power of the Holy Spirit by whom they were strengthened at Confirmation. (CCC)

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church:

Lay believers are in the front line of Church life; for them the Church is the animating principle of human society. Therefore, they in particular ought to have an ever-clearer consciousness not only of belonging to the Church, but of being the Church, that is to say, the community of the faithful on earth under the leadership of the Pope, the common Head, and of the bishops in communion with him. They are the Church. (CCC)

 

[mrs_abbott]

Before accusing others of poking their nose where in other’s personal but NOT private business, this Catholic couple ought to first consider the potential or actual, known or unknown, impact of their living arrangement on others.

I think the Catholic couple living together before marriage has an obligation to God and the Church to examine their OWN spiritual well-being and not be concerned about what others think. It’s nobody’s business, plain and simple!
Luke 6: 41-42
41
Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own?
42
How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’ when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye.

Honestly, I feel sorry for you that you’re so preoccupied with how others’ situations look rather than worrying about your own spiritual well-being.

 

[Aleii]

Setter, now I’m going to tell you to tone it down. Not everything is 100% black and white all the time, and your use of absolute phrases seems to convey you won’t even consider listening to what other people have to say before you start trying to tear them down personally. If you want to debate something, do it in a more loving, not hostile manner.

 

[setter]

I think the Catholic couple living together before marriage has an obligation to God and the Church to examine their OWN spiritual well-being and not be concerned about what others think. It’s nobody’s business, plain and simple!
***Luke 6: 41-42

Honestly, I feel sorry for you that you’re so preoccupied with how others’ situations look rather than worrying about your own spiritual well-being.***
Your reponse again typifies my entire point that American catholics often lack a proper (biblical) focus and balance of being part of the community of believers, the Body of Christ. Another residual symptom of the “me generation”.

St. Paul exhorts believers to the principle of pursuing “mutual upbuilding” and the task to “decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way” of one not yet firmly established in Christ, through our choice of behavior. This requires an other-/Christ-centered focus and maturity and putting off personal preference for the conversion sake of others.

“So each of us shall give account of himself to God. Then let us no more pass judgment on one another, but rather **decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way **of a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean. If your brother is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died. So do not let your good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit; he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for any one to make others fall by what he eats; it is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble." **Romans 14: 12-21 **

 

[estesbob]

Setter, now I’m going to tell you to tone it down. Not everything is 100% black and white all the time, and your use of absolute phrases seems to convey you won’t even consider listening to what other people have to say before you start trying to tear them down personally. If you want to debate something, do it in a more loving, not hostile manner.

I let it pass the first time but now you have taken it upon yourself to moderate some more. These forums are well moderated. if you think a post is out of line click on the red triangle in the upper right hand corner of the post and tell the moderator so. it is agaisnt forum rules for members to moderate.

 

[LittleDeb]

Okay. I’m going out on this limb on this one. I think there might be a misunderstanding of some of the Scripture being quoted here.

“Not judging” from Scripture refers to not judging the state of another’s soul. We must, absolutely must, judge if an action is objectively right or wrong. Right or wrong is a 100% judgement. I think there is some confusion on culpability vs. objective wrong action.

The phrase I finally learned in my 20’s that helped me goes like this:
“There are wrong actions and there is a state of sin. One we must judge the other we cannot.”

Wrong actions are wrong actions regardless of how I feel about them. We may wish that circumstances were different. Our culpability may be lessened due to our circumstances but it doesn’t make the actions any less wrong. There is an objective Truth otherwise the lines drawn are all arbitrary.

I think the OP’s point in this is very telling. Living together but only marrying to have kids is becoming a new relative truth. It is influenced by those individuals (and groups with an agenda) who try to convince us that their living arrangements are a “private” thing. Our living arrangements are a very public thing. From the homeless family living in their car to the wealthy cohabitating couple, all are public. For the same reason neither group need suffer alone.

We must fix the very thought processes, circumstances, and lapses of judgement that lead to these tragic living arrangements.

 

[jmcrae]

St. Francis is often quoted as saying, “Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words.”

What he took for granted was that our actions and our deportment are already preaching the Gospel - that there is a readily observable difference between a Christian and an unbeliever.

What we need to ask ourselves is, Does living together before marriage “preach the Gospel” to our landlord, our family members, our friends, our neighbors, or the kids who go to the school or playground across the street?

Most people are aware that Christianity teaches that living together before marriage is sinful. When they see a couple living together outside of marriage, the Gospel witness of that couple is compromised, because there is no external evidence that they are Christians.

If it is later discovered that they profess to be Christians, the first conclusion the unbeliever will come to is that Christian standards are just too difficult even for Christians to achieve - and that the Christian God is completely out of touch with reality.

 

[Aleii]

I let it pass the first time but now you have taken it upon yourself to moderate some more. These forums are well moderated. if you think a post is out of line click on the red triangle in the upper right hand corner of the post and tell the moderator so. it is agaisnt forum rules for members to moderate.

Point taken, I’ll use the red triangle. I just can’t sit by when I see a person being attacked instead of an idea being debated, especially on a Catholic forum. I come here with an expectation of a lot more civility here than on a normal public forum.

 

[setter]

St. Francis is often quoted as saying, “Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words.”

What he took for granted was that our actions and our deportment are already preaching the Gospel - that there is a readily observable difference between a Christian and an unbeliever.

What we need to ask ourselves is, Does living together before marriage “preach the Gospel” to our landlord, our family members, our friends, our neighbors, or the kids who go to the school or playground across the street?

Most people are aware that Christianity teaches that living together before marriage is sinful. When they see a couple living together outside of marriage, the Gospel witness of that couple is compromised, because there is no external evidence that they are Christians.

If it is later discovered that they profess to be Christians, the first conclusion the unbeliever will come to is that Christian standards are just too difficult even for Christians to achieve - and that the Christian God is completely out of touch with reality.

The common sense approach to “preaching” the gospel with credibility.

 

[a_cermak]

I let it pass the first time but now you have taken it upon yourself to moderate some more. These forums are well moderated. if you think a post is out of line click on the red triangle in the upper right hand corner of the post and tell the moderator so. it is agaisnt forum rules for members to moderate.

I didn’t see it as her being a moderator, but telling the person to moderate their tone. He is just as free to ignore her as she is to admonish him.

Back to the topic, maybe this trend of couples marrying once they want to have children or get pregnant is a good thing! Maybe it means that all the information that’s out there about how children fare better with married parents is sinking in and people are reacting accordingly!

 

[setter]

Back to the topic, maybe this trend of couples marrying once they want to have children or get pregnant is a good thing! Maybe it means that all the information that’s out there about how children fare better with married parents is sinking in and people are reacting accordingly!

Or, maybe it simply dries the cement shoes of it being normal and culturally acceptable to live in grave sin before the “formality” of tying the knot in marriage. More of an ominous sign of the times, such as has already been established in most European countries which has gone the way of paganism.

 

[estesbob]

I didn’t see it as her being a moderator, but telling the person to moderate their tone. He is just as free to ignore her as she is to admonish him.

!

Much beter to let the moderatpors do both…

 

[estesbob]

Or, maybe it simply dries the cement shoes of it being normal and culturally acceptable to live in grave sin before the “formality” of tying the knot in marriage. More of an ominous sign of the times, such as has ben already established in most European countries which has gone the way of paganism.

Agreed.

We seem to be slipping into another area. originally we were talking about a couple living together but not bing sexually involved. To get back on topic IMO they are two problems with this. one is the old “occassions of sin” problem and the other is the impression they are giving to all who are aware of the living arangements. They are in short giving tactic approval to pre-marital sex. I know they vehemently deny it BUT just look at the way this thread has chaged from people living togehter and not having sex to how its ok for people to live together and have sex. In our culture the idea that a man and a woman would live together and NOT have sex is unbeleivable to most people.

 

[mrs_abbott]

“So each of us shall give account of himself to God. Then let us no more pass judgment on one another, but rather **decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way **of a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean. If your brother is being injured by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Do not let what you eat cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died. So do not let your good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit; he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for any one to make others fall by what he eats; it is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble." **Romans 14: 12-21 **

I agree with what you say to an extent but not when you’re just looking at a situation from the outside without knowing what’s inside. A couple living together before marriage as roommates may have circumstances that made the situation inevitable or mandatory. You never know what goes on in people’s lives to make the assumption that it’s ALWAYS wrong. The key word here is ALWAYS. People need to quit associating “scandal” to what honestly could be extremely innocent behavior and a forced situation that no one knows the reasons or circumstances for. Granted, that’s not always the case and sometimes folks ARE living in sin together sexually before marriage.
Apples are usually portrayed as red, right (like in picture books, etc.)? But you and I both know that there are green apples. Red is associated with the color of an apple, generally, but the green ones DO exist.
See my point???

 

[setter]

I agree with what you say to an extent but not when you’re just looking at a situation from the outside without knowing what’s inside. A couple living together before marriage as roommates may have circumstances that made the situation inevitable or mandatory. You never know what goes on in people’s lives to make the assumption that it’s ALWAYS wrong. The key word here is ALWAYS. People need to quit associating “scandal” to what honestly could be extremely innocent behavior and **a forced situation **that no one knows the reasons or circumstances for. Granted, that’s not always the case and sometimes folks ARE living in sin together sexually before marriage.
Apples are usually portrayed as red, right (like in picture books, etc.)? But you and I both know that there are green apples. Red is associated with the color of an apple, generally, but the green ones DO exist.
See my point???

I agree that there are ALWAYS exceptions. The key is that there is nothing normal or desireable about an unmarried Catholic couple living together before marriage.I offer this pertinent reality check for this discussion and the sin of scandal: Too often perception is reality in the mind of folks.

 

[Apryl]

Joking…nope I wasn’t joking.
If I had to do it over again I would do the same thing…no regrets here!

You say that you have no regrets: would you encourage others to do the same? Do you think it’s something you would encourage your children to do?

There are a lot of things that I’ve done that I would say ‘no regrets’, but if I had to really look at what I was doing, and the implications of those actions, I think that I would not want any one that I cared for to take the chances that I did.

Sure, I had a smile on my face, or a good laugh, at the time, but in hindsight… WOW!

 

[Karin]

You say that you have no regrets: would you encourage others to do the same? Do you think it’s something you would encourage your children to do?

There are a lot of things that I’ve done that I would say ‘no regrets’, but if I had to really look at what I was doing, and the implications of those actions, I think that I would not want any one that I cared for to take the chances that I did.

Sure, I had a smile on my face, or a good laugh, at the time, but in hindsight… WOW!

Eah persons situation is different. I can only speak for my own and yeah I would do it again under the same circumstances.

 

[rasmussen]

I would never encourage anyone to live together before marriage. The tempation to try it out and practice being married is just to great and the hurt is as painful as divorce if you seperate. I wouldn’t support a child that planned on living with their girlfriend or fiance and promised they had no plans on having sex. If you want to live together and share finances, get married IMHO.

Is it a sin to do so, no. I just wouldn’t recommend it.

 

[tracydaisy]

Fornication

defined by the CCC:

Sexual intercourse between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. Fornication is a serious violation of the 6th commandment.

CCC 2353

Fornication is… gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

It doesn’t matter if all the world said a couple living together is good, normal or okay, because God says it’s not good, normal or okay.

For all those who say we are not having sex, so it’s okay, should remember those young family members don’t know that. All they know is uncle Harry, (who is a good person and a Catholic) and his girlfriend lived together, it must be okay. When they grow up they just assume that uncle Harry and his girlfriend had sex. And they could conclude that following in Uncle Harry’s footsteps wouldn’t be wrong.

We should be careful of such behavior and we should be sorry for anything that misleads the little ones.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Well, I’d like (name removed by moderator)ut on my upcoming situation vis a vis the thread topic. I am 41 single male who met a 31 single female over the internet from Ghana. We fell in love chatting innocently over the internet. She speaks broken english (types a little better) is extraordinarily poor and orphaned with only a few friends and is now when she gets healthy going to get papers to come to America to be (thank God) my wife. I am Catholic; she is excited about becoming a good Catholic wife and is living with an elderly lady now in Ghana. I am well aware of the hurdles we face to a happy marriage, but I believe that a strong desire we both have to have a marriage that brings us to Jesus first and foremost gives me great hope that we will bear good fruit if we are married.

Now, I have been helping her with expenses and will pay for airplane, but when she gets here she will not be my wife, but where shall I put her? I live alone in a two story Condo and she could have her own room and bathroom until the Church allows us to get married. I am a regular workin’ joe, not a rich fellow.

I am going to talk to my Priest tomorrow (and boy am I nervous. I have not talked to him outside of Confession before and in my whole life I have never even approached Matrimony) I foresee no impediments to marriage, but it would be cruel to bring her here and then strand her alone in some rental until we can marry. I still have to work.

But maybe we can marry right away? (Again, I have never gotten close to Matrimony before) I would like to put her on my insurance so I can make sure her physical needs are taken care of asap if she has any serious needs.

Jesus, I trust in you!