Lk.16:19-31

  • Thread starter Thread starter DCD
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

DCD

Guest
Does anyone know of any direct explanations of this text from the magisterium? The catechism seems to indicate hell. I also have read St. Alphonsus sermons and he seems to say this as well. I have read other Catholic writers and they make the case for purgatory.

Peace,
David
 
CCC #1859,and #2831
I have always understood that the CCC is a product of the Magisterium and not that of a single Pope or Bishop.

Thje Church’s teachings under the “College of Bishops = Magisterium”, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit cannot teach incorrect doctrines of the faith.

In the early Church (resulting from both political and personal differences) even Greek Father a bishop of Constantinople St John Chrystotom went into exile as a “heretic” nearing the end of his life.

“Catholic writers” cannot be better than them.

There are good modern Theologians today who are advocating that since God is so MERCIFUL, all-in-all, there is no hell!

Follow the teachings in the CCC and you cannot go wrong.
God Bless
 
I’ve heard it interpreted both ways.
Purgatory because the rich man shows concern for others which indicates he wasn’t all bad. (Although we’ve never been taught that we have to be ALL bad in order to end in hell; only that we have to be guilty of one serious offense for which we do not repent.)
Hell because the story speaks of a great chasm which has been fixed and which no one can cross.

Most of the commentaries I’ve read see it as referring to hell. Scott Hahn is one who interprets it as purgatory. To my knowledge it is not one of the passages (which are very few) which the Church has definitively given an interpretation to.

Nita
 
D3ar Nite

I shall appreciate it if you will advise me as to which of Dr Scott Hahn’s work does he refer this passage to "Purgatory"

My Ignatius Sudy Bible with notes by Scott Hahn & Curtis Mitch says about this pericope
Hades
The neither world or realm of the dead.It refers to the waiting place where the deceased souls of the wicked are detained till the Last Judgement (Rev 20:13) Here he stands opposite Abraham’s presence and it is a place where sinners languish in the grip of torment ( 16:24 Mt 11:23) It is separated from the abode of the righteous by a permanent, unbridgeable gulf that permits traffic to pass between them.

(I interprete the above to refer to “Hell”). I have great admiration of Dr Scott Hahn as a Biblical Scholar although I also know that he is NOT infallible!​

From what I know and from the various threads, Definitive teachings of Scripture verses are very few.

Infallible teaching - Scipture verses
cathinsight.com/apologetics/verses.htm

Catholic Dogma and Teaching on Creationand the 1909 on Genesis 1-3
bringyou.to/apologetics/p100

rgds and God Bless
 
richardeekw said:
D3ar Nite

I shall appreciate it if you will advise me as to which of Dr Scott Hahn’s work does he refer this passage to "Purgatory"

(I interprete the above to refer to “Hell”). I have great admiration of Dr Scott Hahn as a Biblical Scholar although I also know that he is NOT infallible!​

rgds and God Bless
Click to expand...
Hi Richard,

You would have to ask that!! :hmmm:
It was Scott Hahn. And I am a big fan of his also, and that’s why it sticks in my head. (Also, because it was an interpretation I’d never heard before.) The only thing is, I don’t remember if I heard him say it, or if I read it in one of his books. I have almost all of his writings, including the Ignatius Bible Study you mentioned. Will check the books, but have to be honest and say I don’t intend to reread them all. Regarding hearing him say it -I have quite a few of his tapes but if I heard it, it probably would have been on one of his EWTN programs.

Nita
 
Hi again Richard,
Forgot to say, thanks for the “cathinsight” link. Have known there were only a few passages definitively defined but never had a record of which ones they were. Very glad to get the listing.

Thanks again,
Nita
 
You’re welcome Nite… But Ha! Keep on reading Scott Han’s works 'cos you have troubled my mind.- that’s “Penance”

God is MERCIFUL AND He is also JUST
I have re-read the passage again. The rich man may have thoughts for his living siblings; but … as replied they have Moses and the Prophets…
lThus, I conclude that for him and for all of us the Mercies of God is always available to us when we are alive in bodily form; but once dead then Judgement.

If we subscribe to God’s mercy after death; then as some modern theologians subscribe to - there is no hell 'cos anyone in pain after death and in hell can still get to heaven… Let’s live and be merry now because after we die, the mercies of God can still raise us from hell to heaven??? - I think this is FALSE theology as I once heard

Satan knows that we know that there is a hell, so he advocated his evil demons to torment humans by telling us that there is NO HURRY… ( I think it is in C.S.Lewis Screwtape letters)

regd and be Blessed
 
DCD said:
Does anyone know of any direct explanations of this text from the magisterium? The catechism seems to indicate hell. I also have read St. Alphonsus sermons and he seems to say this as well. I have read other Catholic writers and they make the case for purgatory.

Peace,
David
Click to expand...
Dear David

Shall appreciate the name of the Catholic writers and their works which make the case for Purgatory and why, to satisfy my curiousity.

Thanks
 
Richard,

I have been busy searching for the article I pulled it of of this fourm but now it escapes me. I soon as I find it I will give you the link. I do have the article in front of me but when I printed it out I used a paste job and did not copy the link. It is 6 pages long.

Peace,
David
 
DCD said:
Does anyone know of any direct explanations of this text from the magisterium? The catechism seems to indicate hell. I also have read St. Alphonsus sermons and he seems to say this as well. I have read other Catholic writers and they make the case for purgatory.

Peace,
David
Click to expand...
Jesus always taught the Pharisees by parables. Just before Luke’s 19-31, Jesus (v14): “You are those who justify yourselves befroe man, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.”

I notice that Luke never states that the rich man or the poor man was in a state of mortal sin or sin; one was rich, one was poor. The rich man never requested that he be released from Hades, just a drop of water on his tongue to relieve the anguish from the flame.

Is this parable a teaching that the damned sinners are made to know that the sentence they are under is just, and they cannot alleviate their own misery by making any objection against it. Is his teaching, not to the Pharisees, but to all, that Gos’s justice is eternal.

IMHO, he is teaching that the new Kingdom of God is in fact, at hand and the old law (“the law and the prophets were until John”) is over, but the law of God is unchanged. We must earn our eternal life in all the teachings of Christ. The day will arrive that all will be judged, the virtuous to Heaven, the unjust to Hell and this judgement is final. Do we seek our reward on earth or do we, by charity and following God’s laws, await our reward in our final judgement. Merry CHRISTmas to All.
 
Dear CRW

Thanks for the information.
I emailed to John Salza, author who offered the WEB page.
I quoted Ignatius Bible notes by Scott Hanh & Mitch Curtis, the CCC and my view.

Here is his reply

Richard, the traditional view is that the rich man is in hell.
I offered the verse to demonstrate the possibility that he is in purgatory because he is having compassion on his brothers, and those in hell don’t have compassion for anyone.

Either view is acceptable because the Church has not told us
which one is correct. In my book, when I cite this verse in my
chapter on purgatory, I say that purgatory is one plausible explanation, and hell is the other.

Also, it is not true that God doesn’t have mercy after death.
The state of purgatory is the very mercy of God, after death!
If God didn’t have mercy after death, then anyone who died with mere venial sin or punishments still owed to God would never go to heaven. They would go to hell. Yes, when we die, we are immediately subject to Christ’s judgment. This judgment determines whether we go to heaven or hell. If heaven, we may need to go to purgatory for final expiation before entering heavenly bliss.

(I Underlined the sentences above)
 
richardeekw said:
Dear CRW

Thanks for the information.
I emailed to John Salza, author who offered the WEB page.
I quoted Ignatius Bible notes by Scott Hanh & Mitch Curtis, the CCC and my view.

Here is his reply

Richard, the traditional view is that the rich man is in hell.
I offered the verse to demonstrate the possibility that he is in purgatory because he is having compassion on his brothers, and those in hell don’t have compassion for anyone.

Either view is acceptable because the Church has not told us
which one is correct. In my book, when I cite this verse in my
chapter on purgatory, I say that purgatory is one plausible explanation, and hell is the other.

Also, it is not true that God doesn’t have mercy after death.
The state of purgatory is the very mercy of God, after death!
If God didn’t have mercy after death, then anyone who died with mere venial sin or punishments still owed to God would never go to heaven. They would go to hell. Yes, when we die, we are immediately subject to Christ’s judgment. This judgment determines whether we go to heaven or hell. If heaven, we may need to go to purgatory for final expiation before entering heavenly bliss.

(I Underlined the sentences above)
Click to expand...
If this is just a parable, a way for Christ to instruct the Pharisees, then I would relate his teachings to the Jews as hell and purgatory (because the gates of heaven had not been open until Christ resurrection). Yes God’s mercy is great but end at the day of the final judgment; heaven or hell.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top