Lliteralism

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Both theists and atheists have a habit of interpreting the mythology of the bible and other religions as literal. God is seen as a physical being who lives in an actual place called heaven while the angels are seen as human-like beings with wings, etc. Although these can be helpful metaphors for visualizing the spiritual forces treated in theological philosophy, have people taken these mythological descriptions so literally as to obscure the ideas and ethics they are meant to describe? If so, why do you think literalism has become so difficult to overcome in theological discourse? Does it have to do with the rise and dominance of materialism in culture maybe?
 
The first thing I think of with literalism and the Bible is the approach people often take of Genesis 1:1-2:4a. In my experience, I find atheists tend to view the first creation story as “primitive” and “untrue” because they take a literal view (not to be confused with the literal sense of Scripture). Many will laugh at the notion that light was said to be created before the stars, therefore the story (or even the entire Bible) is just a work of fiction. On the flip side of that, I find many Christians are embarressed by the first creation story (mainly the ones who have not done much reading or thinking about such things). They are unsure how to reconcile their faith in the Word of God with what science tells us. These are just general views I’ve seen, not saying they apply to everyone.

I don’t think the problem here has anything to do with materialism but instead it’s that our culture greatly values and expects exact historical accounts of things. Most people don’t seem to appreciate or even understand the meaning and importance of poetry anymore. They don’t recognize the deep and sophisticated theological poetry behind such writings as the first creation story. I would argue in an instant that the author of Genesis 1:1-2:4a didn’t intend to give an literal or historical account of creation as we understand the meaning of those words today.
 
I think it’s in how we socialize and train our children.

From a very young age, we train them in right and wrong using behavior modification that is psychologically sound and tested to work on mice and dogs, in addition to people. We use threats of punishment and bribes of rewards as the fundamental motivators for the children to do what is right.

In school, we ask the children questions, but if they give us an honest answer, we laugh at them, scold them, or put a negative mark on their Permanent Record. When we ask them a question, it is understood – and they will learn usually sooner than later – that the question really isn’t what they believe, but what we expect them to say. Not only that, but they had better look like they agree with what they are saying. If we ask them, “is this statement true or false,” and they honestly believe it is true, but know we want them to say “false,” and they say, “false” and quickly glance to heaven for affirmation or in apology, then OH BOY! Rolling your eyes at us? Now we have a major problem with a little wiseacre.

When we were learning subtraction in grade school from a nun who knew very little about math, I put down -1 as the answer on a test question, 2 - 3 = ? I knew the answer because my dad had told me how to do negative numbers while I was in kindergarten. I got it marked wrong and asked why. Yes, I was that socially innocent, or clueless if you prefer. Sister said, “you can’t take a bigger number from a smaller one. The correct answer is you cannot do it. It makes no sense.”

I sensed the teacher actually knew there was a way, but didn’t want to confuse the class with it at this time, so I asked, “can we agree that there is a way to do it, but we just haven’t learned us yet?” Then she got very angry and demanded, “IF I ONLY HAVE TWO APPLES, HOW CAN I GIVE YOU THREE?” I was scared and confused. I thought, could it be that she honestly doesn’t know about negative numbers? It was telling the honest truth as I saw it, against lying to save my skin. Lying didn’t even occur to me at that age, so I stammered, “well, I suppose you could owe me one.” BAM! Straight to the principal’s office – again.

So not only do we require kids to learn to say what is literally the “right” answer, but the “right” answer is objectively whatever the Dominant Thinking in the classroom would think … the challenge is for me to know what kind of lameness goes for truth around here and how to smile and recite what I’m supposed to say.

I think this is one of the reasons I have such a hard time getting even my friends to speak from their own mind and heart. I’ll ask a friend, “what do you think about this situation, personally?” He says, “well St. so-and-so wrote this, and Father so-and-so wrote that, so I think it’s probably a Good Thing, what it is you’re saying, that is.” I ask, “I think what the saints say are very enlightening, but still, what is your honest opinion.” My friend can’t answer because it’s been so long since he felt safe giving his personal opinion, that he forgot how.

Also, when we argue in academic settings, we might use body language to try to set the tone of the discussion, but the record of that disagreement will only show who prevailed in a literal sense, not whether the person who won was the bigger jack*ss. That part of it goes unrecorded.

That, to me, is one place where we fail to get value from the Bible. To me, the literal sense of the Bible is the least important one, in terms of how God’s Word can heal and transform us. It was not until I learned to access the deeper meanings, as first introduced to me by my spiritual director, that I started getting benefit from the Bible other than spouting off what I think we were supposed to say is literally right.

This has been going on since the dawn of civilization, from the way I imagine it. It was a problem that Jesus had to work through – he often did it by using shock value or confusion momentarily disturb their value systems so they couldn’t even give a straight answer to a simple question like, “Tell me, was John’s baptism of heavenly or of human origin?” They didn’t even consider which choice was actually true. They considered what would happen to them if they answered this way or that.

Alan
 
I just ran across this while answering a post on a different topic:
1 Cor 1:17-19:
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”
Alan
 
I think it’s in how we socialize and train our children.

From a very young age, we train them in right and wrong using behavior modification that is psychologically sound and tested to work on mice and dogs, in addition to people. We use threats of punishment and bribes of rewards as the fundamental motivators for the children to do what is right.

In school, we ask the children questions, but if they give us an honest answer, we laugh at them, scold them, or put a negative mark on their Permanent Record. When we ask them a question, it is understood – and they will learn usually sooner than later – that the question really isn’t what they believe, but what we expect them to say. Not only that, but they had better look like they agree with what they are saying. If we ask them, “is this statement true or false,” and they honestly believe it is true, but know we want them to say “false,” and they say, “false” and quickly glance to heaven for affirmation or in apology, then OH BOY! Rolling your eyes at us? Now we have a major problem with a little wiseacre.

When we were learning subtraction in grade school from a nun who knew very little about math, I put down -1 as the answer on a test question, 2 - 3 = ? I knew the answer because my dad had told me how to do negative numbers while I was in kindergarten. I got it marked wrong and asked why. Yes, I was that socially innocent, or clueless if you prefer. Sister said, “you can’t take a bigger number from a smaller one. The correct answer is you cannot do it. It makes no sense.”

I sensed the teacher actually knew there was a way, but didn’t want to confuse the class with it at this time, so I asked, “can we agree that there is a way to do it, but we just haven’t learned us yet?” Then she got very angry and demanded, “IF I ONLY HAVE TWO APPLES, HOW CAN I GIVE YOU THREE?” I was scared and confused. I thought, could it be that she honestly doesn’t know about negative numbers? It was telling the honest truth as I saw it, against lying to save my skin. Lying didn’t even occur to me at that age, so I stammered, “well, I suppose you could owe me one.” BAM! Straight to the principal’s office – again.

So not only do we require kids to learn to say what is literally the “right” answer, but the “right” answer is objectively whatever the Dominant Thinking in the classroom would think … the challenge is for me to know what kind of lameness goes for truth around here and how to smile and recite what I’m supposed to say.

I think this is one of the reasons I have such a hard time getting even my friends to speak from their own mind and heart. I’ll ask a friend, “what do you think about this situation, personally?” He says, “well St. so-and-so wrote this, and Father so-and-so wrote that, so I think it’s probably a Good Thing, what it is you’re saying, that is.” I ask, “I think what the saints say are very enlightening, but still, how do you feel about it? What is your honest opinion?” He said, “I don’t really have one; I was always told that the only thing that matters is what the Church teaches.”

Also, when we argue in academic settings, we might use body language to try to set the tone of the discussion, but the record of that disagreement will only show who prevailed in a literal sense, not whether the person who won was the bigger jack*ss. That part of it goes unrecorded.

That, to me, is one place where we fail to get value from the Bible. To me, the literal sense of the Bible is the least important one, in terms of how God’s Word can heal and transform us. It was not until I learned to access the deeper meanings, as first introduced to me by my spiritual director, that I started getting benefit from the Bible other than spouting off what I think we were supposed to say is literally right.

This has been going on since the dawn of civilization, from the way I imagine it. It was a problem that Jesus had to work through – he often did it by using shock value or confusion momentarily disturb their value systems so they couldn’t even give a straight answer to a simple question like, “Tell me, was John’s baptism of heavenly or of human origin?” They didn’t even consider which choice was actually true. They considered what would happen to them if they answered this way or that.

Alan
 
Alan, your post was an absolute delight. It shows the misuse of the tool of mathematics. This is the same with literalism. It is a useful tool, but as all tools limited. Science can tell us how to raise roses, but not why we want to.
 
In researching for another thread I was about to start regarding honesty across all senses of scripture, and absolutist thinking against lying, I came across another little gem, from right here at Catholic Answers: 😃

Dr Mary Healy talks about the senses of scripture, and the new document from Papa B16 about interpretation of the scripture that she is very excited about. Within the first few minutes, Healy pretty much puts literalistic interpretation in its place of relative importance. :knight2:

Here are links to the Catholic Answers show she was on.

I don’t think there is even a question, if Dr. Healy knows anything at all about this subject matter. It boggles my mind how people consider the literal meaning as the most important thing, and they know infallibly that I’m wrong about something because they know infallibly what the Church infallibly teaches, and they know (in their limited little minds) that what I said contradicts it. If I raise any doubt that they are right or try to defend or explain my position, then out come the emotional weapons and I am asked in all seriousness and with feigned brotherly love, whether I realize that I’m risking my eternal soul by refusing to accept the teaching authority of the Church as ordained by God Himself!! :banghead:

Anyway, there is no real question that it is not just risky, but just plain wrong, to consider literal definition of God’s Word as THE most important one that we have a NO TOLERANCE way to interpret – infallibly more authoritative and important than anything my heart and soul tells me when I read that scripture. ❤️

I say we claim victory. If literalists don’t like it, let them call the ref over for a conference and we can watch the replay.
http://bestsmileys.com/sports2/8.gif

Alan

P.S. One thing funny about many literalist arguments I’ve noticed, is that in order to make their point that one sentence is literal, they often rely on non-literal interpretations of other passages. If you comment on it, you will be asked to go with them through a logical obstacle course that makes the geocentrists look like relativists. Oh wait, geocentrists are literalists, except for those passages where the literal meaning directly contradicts the literal meaning of other passages. (Such as two conflicting stories of the order of creation, and two conflicting stories about what God commanded Noah to do.) Then it is still to be interpreted literally, but can only be truly understood if we explain it from the reference frame of some contrived context beyond Einstein’s imagination. :whacky:
 
Both theists and atheists have a habit of interpreting the mythology of the bible and other religions as literal. God is seen as a physical being who lives in an actual place called heaven while the angels are seen as human-like beings with wings, etc. Although these can be helpful metaphors for visualizing the spiritual forces treated in theological philosophy, have people taken these mythological descriptions so literally as to obscure the ideas and ethics they are meant to describe? If so, why do you think literalism has become so difficult to overcome in theological discourse? Does it have to do with the rise and dominance of materialism in culture maybe?
I think the focus on the literal sense of the text is a result of ideas still reverberating from the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. After 1,000 years + of scriptural interpretation focusing on the allegorical meaning (Philo and Christian commentators) or midrashic techniques (Rabbinic Judaism and Kabbalah), beginning with Rashi and Luther, greater emphasis was placed on plain meaning of scripture. Because of Luther’s particular approach to biblical theology (not all parts of the Bible being equally relevant or important), the radical reformers responded in kind by taking a super-literalist approach to scripture. Combined with Enlightenment ideas that with enough study, the one final definitive interpretation of the Bible can ultimately be discovered, literalism has carried the day in the West ever since–even in large chunks of Catholicism, which has traditionally not emphasized the literal sense to the detriment of the other senses of scripture.
 
Everyone needs to remember a basic thing: the Bible is not intended to be a book on science or history. It was written to teach uneducated people about God. Stories, poetry. Ancient people did not have universities or advanced science, but they did have their stories. There may be some parts that are true, but we are not expected to take everything literally.

Now, the New Testament is different. The gospel IS intended to be an historical account and describe Jesus’s life in the best way possible, recording the most important of His works and teachings. Some details we might want to know today are not recorded because they were not considered important enough to record, or maybe the things we’re interested in today are not the same as the interests of the people 2,000 years ago.
 
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