Logic in Islam

[hawk]

It is my desire here to discuss the logic and truth of some of the assertions of Islam.

It is important to note that Mohammed used the authority of the Bible to preach islam.

The revelations are given over a period of 23 years.

You will find the early surahs do not refer to biblical stories much.
But as Mohammed converted jews and christians, he learnt their stories, and began to incrporate them into his alleged revelation.

However the stories do not always match with Biblical stories, and are often embellished with midrash and talmudic legends, there are also some christian heresies thrown in.

Let us put some simple questions to our muslim bretheren in the hope that it will cause them to think.

In the beginning…

God created Adam, and blew His “ruh” into Adam.
The “ruh” animates the body, the “nafs”

What does this mean to a muslim?

Muslims do not believe that we are created in the image and likeness of God.

They do not understand that Allah is Al-wadud, All loving, and by this he gave us His “ruach” which has the capacity to love perfectly.

It is this that we are called to do, even Jesus says.

All the words of the prophets rests on 2 commandments
Love thy Lord thy God.
Love thy neighbour.

We are created to love, and the “ruach” compels us to love perfectly.

This is the Catholic understanding.

What does islam say?

 

[Jermin_Savory]

hawk:

It is important to note that Mohammed used the authority of the Bible to preach islam.

The revelations are given over a period of 23 years.

In the name of Allah

AA

Hello hawk

The Prophet Muhammad (P) was a fluent speaking Arab, he didn’t know greek, Hebrew and his mothers tounge was Only Arabic not even Aramaic. And an Arabic Bible was not available at the time of the Prophet (P), how then could the Prophet Muhammad (P) use the Authority of the Bible to preach islam or use the Bible even? Please answer this question first, then we’ll tend to the rest of your Questions.

 

[hawk]

Jermin Savory:

In the name of Allah

AA

Hello hawk

The Prophet Muhammad (P) was a fluent speaking Arab, he didn’t know greek, Hebrew and his mothers tounge was Only Arabic not even Aramaic. And an Arabic Bible was not available at the time of the Prophet (P), how then could the Prophet Muhammad (P) use the Authority of the Bible to preach islam or use the Bible even? Please answer this question first, then we’ll tend to the rest of your Questions.

You do not have to be able to read to listen to stories.
If you are a trader to syria, and there are long and arduous journeys through the desert.
At camp fires stories are told, christians and jews argue their theology, Mohammed just picked up these stories.
That is why they are mixed up with apocrypha.

He uses the athautrity of the Bible, because he says he is the last of a long line of Prophets.

Since his manufactured theology doesnt make sense, He must then discredit that very same Bible, and the claim that the previous prophets actually said the same thing that he did.

To me that smacks of opportunism

 

[Jermin_Savory]

hawk:

You do not have to be able to read to listen to stories.
If you are a trader to syria, and there are long and arduous journeys through the desert.
At camp fires stories are told, christians and jews argue their theology, Mohammed just picked up these stories.

In the name of Allah

AA

Yes, thats true, “You do not have to be able to read to listen to stories.” And when the Prophet (P) were among these “Traders” who was with him? answer please…

The Prophet’s (P) life was an open book for all to see, when could he have recorded, listened and written down or where is the influence of the Bible (Torah) in the Qur’an?

You said, the jews and Christians were argueing their theology, and “Mohammed just picked up these stories.” Do you have documented proof of when and where he was influnenced and picked up these stories. By the way, the time and place that the Prophet (P) used to record these bond fire stories between the Jews and the Christians, can you varify them?

Please account the fact that the Prophet (P) always had a companion with him, as stated above, his life was an open book for all to see, meaning those who were present with him every where he went.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

hawk:

He uses the athautrity of the Bible, because he says he is the last of a long line of Prophets.

Since his manufactured theology doesnt make sense, He must then discredit that very same Bible, and the claim that the previous prophets actually said the same thing that he did.

In the name of Allah

AA

The Prophet (P) never discredited the Bible. In islam, we believe in the Torah that was given to moses (P), the Psalms given to David, the Gospel that Jesus (P) preached and thats basically it. We don’t believe in the Other Scriptures that were developed by others. So if the Bible for You is considered to be that of Paul and all of the other books that make up the new testament, then we don’t give credit to it in islam.

The Prophet (P) never discredited the Previous scriptures, actually the Qur’an orders him to ask, reason and discuss with the people of the Book. (Jews and Christians) Because they were given the Same message, Which was the order and command to worship the One and only true God whom All of the Prophets of the Pass worshiped.

 

[hawk]

Jermin Savory:

In the name of Allah

AA

The Prophet (P) never discredited the Bible. In islam, we believe in the Torah that was given to moses (P), the Psalms given to David, the Gospel that Jesus (P) preached and thats basically it. We don’t believe in the Other Scriptures that were developed by others. So if the Bible for You is considered to be that of Paul and all of the other books that make up the new testament, then we don’t give credit to it in islam.

The Prophet (P) never discredited the Previous scriptures, actually the Qur’an orders him to ask, reason and discuss with the people of the Book. (Jews and Christians) Because they were given the Same message, Which was the order and command to worship the One and only true God whom All of the Prophets of the Pass worshiped.

Well the Bible that we have, is the only Bible.

Paul and all the others?

Are these the very same helpers, that Allah appointed to help Jesus?

Mohammed did discredit the scriptures, he says in the quran, -they change the words of God for a cheap price.

And we completely reject the same message idea, we believe that all the previous messages point to Jesus alone.
The fulfillment of the messages happens in Jesus alone.

 

[Faith101]

hawk:

Well the Bible that we have, is the only Bible.

Paul and all the others?

Are these the very same helpers, that Allah appointed to help Jesus?

Mohammed did discredit the scriptures, he says in the quran, -they change the words of God for a cheap price.

And we completely reject the same message idea, we believe that all the previous messages point to Jesus alone.
The fulfillment of the messages happens in Jesus alone.

All previous messengers, including Jesus Christ peace be upon him, pointed to the oneness of God alone. Dont worry, if you dont believe it now, he’ll let you know when he comes back on this earth.

i recall a verse in the Bible that talks about the “lying pens of the scribes” maybe you guys know of this verse. i’ll try to find it later inshAllah. what do you make of that?

 

[iamrefreshed]

Faith101:

All previous messengers, including Jesus Christ peace be upon him, pointed to the oneness of God alone. Dont worry, if you dont believe it now, he’ll let you know when he comes back on this earth.

i recall a verse in the Bible that talks about the “lying pens of the scribes” maybe you guys know of this verse. i’ll try to find it later inshAllah. what do you make of that?

Faith, are you really trying to use a verse from the Bible to discredit the Bible?

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

All previous messengers, including Jesus Christ peace be upon him, pointed to the oneness of God alone. Dont worry, if you dont believe it now, he’ll let you know when he comes back on this earth.

what else?

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

AA

I remember having this discussion with someone on this forum before, here is the script.

Selvaraj: Bible was before Quran. Quran is copied from the Bible, and whatever Mohammed needed he taken from that and whatever he didnot need he omitted.

**
Jermin Savory ** : My freind, the argument that because the Qur’an came after the Bible it Must be copied from the bible is not logical, especially when you analyze the Qur’an. Allow me to educate you Brother. 1. The thought that Muhummad (P) authored the Qur’an or copied from other sources can be disproved by the single historical fact that he was illiterate. 2. The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet. 3.

Similarities between the Qur’an and the Bible does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter. 4. there are some similar parallels between the Qur’an and the Bible but this is not sufficient to accuse Muhummad (P) of compiling or copying from the Bible. The same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.

A further Correction is that According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1:16 says, “And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night”.

“Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (P) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible.” So as you can see, to say that the Qur’an was copied from the bible is not possible because the Prophet (P) would have had many mistakes to correct before he copied them into the Qur’an. Please think about your arguments before you put them forth.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

AA

Believeing that Muhammad (P) copied, learned or borrowed the Literature from the Bible isn’t sensable if you know the Qur’an. These are old myths, sayings and beliefs that historians do even utter from their tounges anymore.

For example: A further Correction is that According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1:16 says, “And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night”.

“Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (P) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible.” So as you can see, to say that the Qur’an was copied from the bible is not possible because the Prophet (P) would have had many mistakes to correct before he copied them into the Qur’an. Please think about your arguments before you put them forth.

 

[Genesis315]

I don’t think he copied the Bible. I think he heard stories and went from there. This is why he seems to think the Trinity referes to God the Father, Jesus, and Mary (instead of the Holy Spirit).

 

[chb03c]

Jermin Savory:

In the name of Allah

AA

Believeing that Muhammad (P) copied, learned or borrowed the Literature from the Bible isn’t sensable if you know the Qur’an. These are old myths, sayings and beliefs that historians do even utter from their tounges anymore.

For example: A further Correction is that According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1:16 says, “And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night”.

I am not sure if the point of this passage was to say that the moon has its own source of light. I think it was just making a point that; hey God made both the moon and the sun.

“Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (P) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible.” So as you can see, to say that the Qur’an was copied from the bible is not possible because the Prophet (P) would have had many mistakes to correct before he copied them into the Qur’an. Please think about your arguments before you put them forth.

This is interesting to say because the Greeks had already made very credible studies of the Moon and the earth 1000’s of years before Muhummad. I am willing to bet they knew where the light on the Moon was coming from even with there geocentric model.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Genesis315:

I don’t think he copied the Bible. I think he heard stories and went from there. This is why he seems to think the Trinity referes to God the Father, Jesus, and Mary (instead of the Holy Spirit).

In the name of Allah

AA Christians

Muhammad (P) didn’t copy the Bible, neither did he hear stories and copied. However he did speak with Christians and Jews (His companions were always with him) but this was only to bring them to islam like i’m doing now with you. He spoke with these people to correct their misconcept of God and tell them that God is one. Also a point that I would like to note is, the Qur’an is not from Muhammad, (P) the source of the Qur’an is divine. The Author isn’t man, for man didn’t posess such knowledge 14 to 1500 hundred years ago.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

AA Genesis!

Do you know that Some Pagans accused the Prophet of learning the Qur’an from a Roman Blacksmith, who was a Christian staying at the outskirts of Makkah. The Prophet very often used to go and watch him do his work. There is a verse in the Qur’an that was revealed especially for those people who accused the Prophet. (P) This verse dismisses this charge…

Qur’an 16:103

“We know indeed that they say, ‘It is a man that teaches him,’ The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.”

 

[Jermin_Savory]

chb03c:

I am not sure if the point of this passage was to say that the moon has its own source of light. I think it was just making a point that; hey God made both the moon and the sun.

In the name of Allah

AA Christian friends…

The point of my passage was basically to show and prove to you that the Qur’an wasn’t copied from the Bible when you take into account and consider or factor in the fact that the Qur’an carries a more accurate and scientific approach with consistency than the Bible. Please re-read the passage below.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

chb03c:

This is interesting to say because the Greeks had already made very credible studies of the Moon and the earth 1000’s of years before Muhummad. I am willing to bet they knew where the light on the Moon was coming from even with there geocentric model.

In the name of Allah

AA

This may be true, but was this the case of Pre islamic Arabia?

 

[The_Eurasian]

The moon has no light of its own to light the earth at night. BUT IT WAS ONLY AFTER GOD CREATED THE MOON THAT THE SUN’S LIGHT WAS REFLECTED BACK FROM SPACE TO LIGHT THE PORTION OF THE EARTH THAT IS AT NIGHT.

As a result of this, THE EARTH HAD A GREATER LIGHT TO LIGHT IT BY DAY AND A LESSER LIGHT TO LIGHT IT BY NIGHT.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Jermin Savory,

I don’t know where this argument is leading to, but I don’t agree with some of your reasonings.
Jermin Savory:

My freind, the argument that because the Qur’an came after the Bible it Must be copied from the bible is not logical, especially when you analyze the Qur’an. Allow me to educate you Brother. 1. The thought that Muhummad (P) authored the Qur’an or copied from other sources can be disproved by the single historical fact that he was illiterate.

Being illiterate doesn’t pove anything. What he heard he can pass it down to be written.
Jermin Savory:

1. The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet.

The Arabic translation doesn’t have to be in existence for Muhammad to have heard the content of the Bible. Many illiterate today know the content of the Bible through word of mouth. Only that the content they know can be errorneous. If that’s the case, it ties very well with Muhammad errorneous knowledge of the Bible then.
Jermin Savory:

1. Similarities between the Qur’an and the Bible does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter. 4. there are some similar parallels between the Qur’an and the Bible but this is not sufficient to accuse Muhummad (P) of compiling or copying from the Bible. The same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.

What do you mean by this? Jesus accepted the OT as genuine scripture.
Jermin Savory:

A further Correction is that According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1:16 says, “And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night”.

“Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (P) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible.” So as you can see, to say that the Qur’an was copied from the bible is not possible because the Prophet (P) would have had many mistakes to correct before he copied them into the Qur’an. Please think about your arguments before you put them forth.

Regadless of the above, there are some mistakes that the Quran makes with regards to the information in the Bible. Your reasoning doesn’t seem to prove anything, unless perhaps if you care to elaborate.

Peace.

Reuben.

 

[Ghosty]

The same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.

Aren’t you aware that Christians believe everything from the Old Testament? Jesus was a Jew, of course He taught from the Old Testament. He even directly quoted it, as did the Apostles. Christians believe that everything in the New Testament is built from the Old Testament. Jesus not just “copied” the Old Testament (though He never actually wrote anything), he taught directly, from it, and I mean with the scrolls physically in His hand.

In the beginning, even Jews viewed Christianity as a form of Judaism. The Catholic Church views itself as a continuation of Judaism post-Messiah, not a new religion. The Catholic Church even refers to itself as the People of Israel, as Jews believe that after the Messiah comes, all will be Jews, and all will be members of the Kingdom of Israel. The major difference is that Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, at which point something vaguely similar to the Church will be established, and Catholics believe the Messiah has already come and that the Church is the institution that the Messiah is prophesied to establish.