Logic in Islam

[gilliam]

Jermin Savory:

In the name of Allah

AA

This may be true, but was this the case of Pre islamic Arabia?

Mecca was a trading center, that some Greek science was known to Arabs there before Islam would be understandable.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

hawk:

It is my desire here to discuss the logic and truth of some of the assertions of Islam.

It is important to note that Mohammed used the authority of the Bible to preach islam.

The revelations are given over a period of 23 years.

You will find the early surahs do not refer to biblical stories much.
But as Mohammed converted jews and christians, he learnt their stories, and began to incrporate them into his alleged revelation.

However the stories do not always match with Biblical stories, and are often embellished with midrash and talmudic legends, there are also some christian heresies thrown in.

Let us put some simple questions to our muslim bretheren in the hope that it will cause them to think.

In the beginning…

God created Adam, and blew His “ruh” into Adam.
The “ruh” animates the body, the “nafs”

What does this mean to a muslim?

Muslims do not believe that we are created in the image and likeness of God.

They do not understand that Allah is Al-wadud, All loving, and by this he gave us His “ruach” which has the capacity to love perfectly.

It is this that we are called to do, even Jesus says.

All the words of the prophets rests on 2 commandments
Love thy Lord thy God.
Love thy neighbour.

We are created to love, and the “ruach” compels us to love perfectly.

This is the Catholic understanding.

What does islam say?

Salaam Friend hawk;
I would like to participate in the discussions in this thread, but before doing so I would like to ask you a question if you don’t mind answering it: what do you think Muslims worship as far as God is concerned? By this question, I just want to establish some common grounds for a fruitful discussion Incha’Allah. Thank you.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[hawk]

Joseph_Alison:

Salaam Friend hawk;
I would like to participate in the discussions in this thread, but before doing so I would like to ask you a question if you don’t mind answering it: what do you think Muslims worship as far as God is concerned? By this question, I just want to establish some common grounds for a fruitful discussion Incha’Allah. Thank you.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Yusuf,
Having been muslim I am in a position to comment on this.

Muslims direct their prayers to the One God.
However I beleive that the Truth is reavealed in Isa ibnu Allah
Having said that, God works miracles, Islam was invented to serve Gods purpose. I cannot imagine what it is, yet I know that what must come to pass, must come to pass.

So yes I believe that muslims worship the One God, no matter the origin of their faith.

And a good muslim will somehow reconcile islam with his nature.

Wa’salaam

 

[Jermin_Savory]

In the name of Allah

AA

The Arabic translation doesn’t have to be in existence for Muhammad to have heard the content of the Bible. Many illiterate today know the content of the Bible through word of mouth. Only that the content they know can be errorneous. If that’s the case, it ties very well with Muhammad errorneous knowledge of the Bible then.

Heard it from who, and he must have had to write it, and if he did, when did he have time to write it. “The day-to-day life of the Prophet was an open book for all to see. In fact a revelation came asking people to give the Prophet (pbuh) privacy in his own home. If the Prophet had been meeting people who told him what to say as a revelation from God, this would not have been hidden for very long.”

Regadless of the above, there are some mistakes that the Quran makes with regards to the information in the Bible. Your reasoning doesn’t seem to prove anything, unless perhaps if you care to elaborate.

Mistakes? I’m not going to even entertain this idea…

 

[Jermin_Savory]

gilliam:

Mecca was a trading center, that some Greek science was known to Arabs there before Islam would be understandable.

In the name of Allah

AA

Yes, but do you care to tell me when and where or possibly who the Prophet (P) could have copied from? The extremely prominent Quraish nobles who followed the Prophet (P) and accepted Islam were wise and intelligent men who would have easily noticed anything suspicious about the way in which the Prophet brought the revelations to them - more so since the Prophetic mission lasted 23 years.

 

[Reuben_J]

Jermin Savory:

Jermin Savory:

1. The thought that Muhummad (P) authored the Qur’an or copied from other sources can be disproved by the single historical fact that he was illiterate. 2. The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet. 3. Similarities between the Qur’an and the Bible does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter…

Reuben:
The Arabic translation doesn’t have to be in existence for Muhammad to have heard the content of the Bible. Many illiterate today know the content of the Bible through word of mouth. Only that the content they know can be errorneous. If that’s the case, it ties very well with Muhammad errorneous knowledge of the Bible then.

Jermin Savory:
Heard it from who, and he must have had to write it, and if he did, when did he have time to write it. “The day-to-day life of the Prophet was an open book for all to see. In fact a revelation came asking people to give the Prophet (pbuh) privacy in his own home. If the Prophet had been meeting people who told him what to say as a revelation from God, this would not have been hidden for very long.”

Your reasonings that Muhammad could not have copied from the the Bible because (1) he was illiterate and (2) the Arab Bible was not in existence during his time.

I said this still could happen. If Muhammad heard some of the Bible’s content through conversation or fellowship with other people, maybe Christians or Christian herectics, he would remember it in his mind, and sometime later could use this information as revelation. The accuracy of the information would of course depended on its source. He did not have to write anything as you mentioned he was illiterate.

I disagreed with your reasonings, that’s all.

Peace.

Reuben .

 

[The_Eurasian]

Was Muhummad a GENIUS?

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Reuben J:

Your reasonings that Muhammad could not have copied from the the Bible because (1) he was illiterate and (2) the Arab Bible was not in existence during his time.

In the name of Allah

AA Christians…

I’ve given this answer below, It seems like we are going around in circles…I’ll quote myself “The extremely prominent Quraish nobles who followed the Prophet (P) and accepted Islam were wise and intelligent men who would have easily noticed anything suspicious about the way in which the Prophet brought the revelations to them - more so since the Prophetic mission lasted 23 years.”

 

[Jermin_Savory]

The Eurasian:

Was Muhummad a GENIUS?

In the name of Allah

AA Christians friends…

The Prophet (P) couldn’t even write his own name…The Qur’an tells those who think the Prophet (P) could have put the Qur’an together himself…

Qur’an 29 verse 48

"And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted. "

 

[hawk]

Jermin Savory:

In the name of Allah

AA Christians…

I’ve given this answer below, It seems like we are going around in circles…I’ll quote myself “The extremely prominent Quraish nobles who followed the Prophet (P) and accepted Islam were wise and intelligent men who would have easily noticed anything suspicious about the way in which the Prophet brought the revelations to them - more so since the Prophetic mission lasted 23 years.”

Who were these Quraish nobles?

Maybe we can get some names, and whether this would be after the conquest of mecca or before.

 

[Jermin_Savory]

Reuben J:

If Muhammad heard some of the Bible’s content through conversation or fellowship with other people, maybe Christians or Christian herectics, he would remember it in his mind, and sometime later could use this information as revelation.

In the name of Allah

AA

Having said that, are you now ready to tell me where and when could he have written down or sneek these ideas in the Qur’an. Please read the answer I give two posts down…

To besides…The enemies of the Prophet kept a close watch on him in order to find proof for their claim that he was a liar - “they could not point out even a single instance when the Prophet may have had a secret rendezvous with particular Jews and Christians.”

 

[Jermin_Savory]

hawk:

Who were these Quraish nobles?

Maybe we can get some names, and whether this would be after the conquest of mecca or before.

In the name of Allah

AA

How about you prove everything you said below…

"You do not have to be able to read to listen to stories.
If you are a trader to syria, and there are long and arduous journeys through the desert.
At camp fires stories are told, christians and jews argue their theology, Mohammed just picked up these stories.
That is why they are mixed up with apocrypha.

He uses the athautrity of the Bible, because he says he is the last of a long line of Prophets.

Since his manufactured theology doesnt make sense, He must then discredit that very same Bible, and the claim that the previous prophets actually said the same thing that he did."

 

[Jermin_Savory]

hawk:

Who were these Quraish nobles?

Maybe we can get some names, and whether this would be after the conquest of mecca or before.

In the name of Allah

AA

Being a former muslim, shouldn’t you know who the Quraish nobels were? Anyway…a few are Asi bin Mughirah, who was one of the very respected ones amongst them. Abas, who was an uncle of the Prophet (P), Aqil, Abul Aas and Walid bin al-Walid.

 

[hawk]

Jermin Savory:

In the name of Allah

AA

Being a former muslim, shouldn’t you know who the Quraish nobels were? Anyway…a few are Asi bin Mughirah, who was one of the very respected ones amongst them. Abas, who was an uncle of the Prophet (P), Aqil, Abul Aas and Walid bin al-Walid.

Actually I have to claim that I was not familiar with them, perhaps the reason for this is that having grown up in the faith one is not aware of many things of the deen, much the same as cradle catholics do not know their own faith.

However I did some serious research before I chose to leave islam.

I did not however research the Quraish noblemen


With regards to Asi bin Mughira, this is what I found.

witness-pioneer.org

This domain may be for sale!

www.witness-pioneer.org

Among the Quraish who fought against the Muslims was Asi bin Hisham bin Mughirah a respectable Quraish noble. He was a brother of the mother of Umar and his maternal uncle. Umar maintained that all ties of relationship had ceased to exist between the Muslims and the polytheists. He singled out his maternal uncle and killed him in the battle.

The first person to be martyred in the battle was Mahja, a slave of Umar Umar thus came to claim the honour that the first Muslim to be martyred in the cause of Islam was a slave who belonged to him.

With regards to Mohammeds Christian and Jewish sources.

I cannot be certain, and it is surmising.
However from a christian point of view, it seems to be the most reasonable explanation for the knowledge of the Bible, exhibited by Mohammed.
Indeed I would say that it far more plausible sounding than the divine revelation theory.

One suspects that had the Christians and Jews a motive to change scripture they would.

However many of the stories that are changed in the Quran, eg:
The story about cain being showed how to bury his brother abel by a bird.

Gives absolutely no motive to the christian and jews to change.

In addition the story of Solomon speaking to ants, makes one wonder, why would people, like the jews change the scripture?

They did not: It was never part of the scripture, but the oral tradition.

This is why, I am convinced, for my part, that Mohammed encountered oral stories on his trade missions.

After all what does one do around a campfire, or at a marketplace?

Wa’salaam

 

[The_Eurasian]

Jermin, Hawk, all

I do not know if the following might apply to the prophet of the Muslims Muhammad. and explain the source of the koran.

Just because a person is illiterate DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PERSON IS NOT A GENIUS.

There is an organization called MENSA. To be a member of MENSA, your IQ has to be 150 or above. You would think that MENSA would only have PhDs, scientists, etc. Actually, many PhDs and scientists cannot be members of MENSA because their IQs are less that 150. But in MENSA are barbers, waitresses, laborers, blue collar workers etc, who had little schooling BUT IQs OF OVER 150.

People in the past usualy did not know how to read or write BUT THEY HAD FANTASTIC MEMORIES. I think, even today there are illiterate people WITH FANTASTIC MEMORIES IN INDIA AND THE MUSLIMS. I know that Asiatic Indians memorized their holy books, THE VEDAS which were passed from generation to generation VERBALLY. In this sub-forum, Muslim posters have said that even if all the Koran in the world are destroyed, MUSLIMS CAN REPRODUCE THE KORAN BECAUSE THEY MEMORIZED THE ENTIRE KORAN.

WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE, whose dramas are read and taught in english classes all over the world WAS ACTUALLY JUST A PARKING ATTENDANT FOR THE HORSES AND CARRIAGES OF PEOPLE WHO WERE GOING TO THOSE PLAYS. Constant exposure to such plays however RESULTED IN SHAKESPEARE BECOMING THE GREATEST PLAY WRITER OF THEM ALL. Being just a horse attendant, I don’t THINK HE EVER WENT TO COLLEGE. While I was a student, Our textbook on Shakespeare had about 600 pages of his play/drama writings!!! Can you imagine that? A mere parking lot attendant producing better plays and poetry than the PHDs of those days and later???

About 6 months or a year ago, I saw on CSPAN a law enforcement karate teacher who WENT TO TEACH PRISONERS HOW TO WRITE POETRY. To his amazement, ignorant, illiterate prisoners, members of gangs WERE SO VERBALLY EXPRESSIVE IN THEIR POETRY BECAUSE IN THE STREETS, THAT’S HOW THEY TALK!!! WITH EXPRESSION!!! He said, he could not write poetry with expression the way these illiterate prisoners could!!! AND HE READ ON THE CSPAN PROGRAM A FEW OF THOSE POEMS THAT WERE WRITTEN BY THE PRISONERS.

Try listening to FORMER US SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE REPRESENTATIVE JIM WRIGHT. When he speaks, it is like poetry. YET, if I am not mistaken, I DON"T THINK HE WENT TO COLLEGE.

The newspaper columnist Charlie Reese whose writings appear in so many newspapers in the US and perhaps also abroad. HE DID NOT EVEN GO TO COLLEGE!!!

And there are kids maybe just 10, 12 years old who have 2, 3 college degrees in Medicine, etc from the most prestigious universities in the United States like UCLA, etc.

About 30 years ago, THERE WAS AN ASIATIC INDIAN WOMAN WHO COULD MENTALLY ADD, SUBTRACT 50 DIGIT NUMBERS FASTER THAN 2 CALCULATORS PUT TOGETHER BECAUSE THE 50 DIGIT NUMBERS WERE LONGER THAN THE NUMBER OF DIGITS THAN EACH CALCULATOR COULD PROCESS. AND AS THE AUDITORIUM FULL OF AUDIENCE WATCHED WITH AMAZEMENT, SOMETIMES, HER ANSWER WAS DIFFERENT THAN THAT OF THE CALCULATORS. WHEN RECHECKED, THE CALCULATORS WERE ALWAYS WRONG AND SHE WAS ALWAYS RIGHT. You could ask her for square roots, cube roots of very long 50 digit numbers and instantly she would start to recite her answer because she could process the mathematical operations MENTALLY as fast as she could recite the digits of the very long answers. She could divide, multiply long numbers mentally.and instantly give you the answers. Yet she always said to the audience, please, no physics questions!!! WHY??? BECAUSE SHE WAS ILLITERATE!!! COMPLETELY AMAZING!!! BUT IT IS TRUE!!!

 

[Reuben_J]

The Eurasian:

Jermin, Hawk, all

I do not know if the following might apply to the prophet of the Muslims Muhammad. and explain the source of the koran.

Just because a person is illiterate DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PERSON IS NOT A GENIUS.

There is an organization called MENSA. To be a member of MENSA, your IQ has to be 150 or above. You would think that MENSA would only have PhDs, scientists, etc. Actually, many PhDs and scientists cannot be members of MENSA because their IQs are less that 150. But in MENSA are barbers, waitresses, laborers, blue collar workers etc, who had little schooling BUT IQs OF OVER 150.

People in the past usualy did not know how to read or write BUT THEY HAD FANTASTIC MEMORIES. I think, even today there are illiterate people WITH FANTASTIC MEMORIES IN INDIA AND THE MUSLIMS. I know that Asiatic Indians memorized their holy books, THE VEDAS which were passed from generation to generation VERBALLY. In this sub-forum, Muslim posters have said that even if all the Koran in the world are destroyed, MUSLIMS CAN REPRODUCE THE KORAN BECAUSE THEY MEMORIZED THE ENTIRE KORAN.

WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE, whose dramas are read and taught in english classes all over the world WAS ACTUALLY JUST A PARKING ATTENDANT FOR THE HORSES AND CARRIAGES OF PEOPLE WHO WERE GOING TO THOSE PLAYS. Constant exposure to such plays however RESULTED IN SHAKESPEARE BECOMING THE GREATEST PLAY WRITER OF THEM ALL. Being just a horse attendant, I don’t THINK HE EVER WENT TO COLLEGE. While I was a student, Our textbook on Shakespeare had about 600 pages of his play/drama writings!!! Can you imagine that? A mere parking lot attendant producing better plays and poetry than the PHDs of those days and later???

About 30 years ago, THERE WAS AN ASIATIC INDIAN WOMAN WHO COULD MENTALLY ADD, SUBTRACT 50 DIGIT NUMBERS FASTER THAN 2 CALCULATORS PUT TOGETHER BECAUSE THE 50 DIGIT NUMBERS WERE LONGER THAN THE NUMBER OF DIGITS THAN EACH CALCULATOR COULD PROCESS. AND AS THE AUDITORIUM FULL OF AUDIENCE WATCHED WITH AMAZEMENT, SOMETIMES, HER ANSWER WAS DIFFERENT THAN THAT OF THE CALCULATORS. WHEN RECHECKED, THE CALCULATORS WERE ALWAYS WRONG AND SHE WAS ALWAYS RIGHT. You could ask her for square roots, cube roots of very long 50 digit numbers and instantly she would start to recite her answer because she could process the mathematical operations MENTALLY as fast as she could recite the digits of the very long answers. She could divide, multiply long numbers mentally.and instantly give you the answers. Yet she always said to the audience, please, no physics questions!!! WHY??? BECAUSE SHE WAS ILLITERATE!!! COMPLETELY AMAZING!!! BUT IT IS TRUE!!!

If they are true, can they be considered miracles?

 

[Reuben_J]

Jermin Savory:

In the name of Allah

AA Christians…

I’ve given this answer below, It seems like we are going around in circles…I’ll quote myself “The extremely prominent Quraish nobles who followed the Prophet (P) and accepted Islam were wise and intelligent men who would have easily noticed anything suspicious about the way in which the Prophet brought the revelations to them - more so since the Prophetic mission lasted 23 years.”

I do not understand. What is there to be suspicous about if you believed the man. If I’m impressed by a person because of his eloquence and reasons, I would go along with him fine.
Jermin Savory:

Having said that, are you now ready to tell me where and when could he have written down or sneek these ideas in the Qur’an. Please read the answer I give two posts down…

To besides…The enemies of the Prophet kept a close watch on him in order to find proof for their claim that he was a liar - “they could not point out even a single instance when the Prophet may have had a secret rendezvous with particular Jews and Christians.”

Leave out the part that he could have written them down …

Leave out too the secret rendevous. Other than these did Muhammad has no contact whatsoever with people?