Logic of marriage

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Tyrion:

Not in and of itself. And if you would consider how many religious marriages lack lifelong commitment, then you should get off your high horse. Marriage has nothing to do with commitment. Religion has nothing to do with commitment. How hard is that to understand?

This argument is a non sequitur.

You don’t judge an institution’s merits on its worst adherents but it’s best.

You don’t dismantle the medical profession just because doctors make mistakes.

 

[Tyrion]

I may not be able to prove to you beyond any doubt as to the logic of marriage.

If you cannot, then what are we talking about?

And I can definitely poke holes in every single argument that you present against it.

Then why don’t you? My stance is really simple. The “piece of paper” does not add anything to, nor does it take away anything from the commitment of two people who wish to make a contract with each other to live their life together. The arrangement - of course - has legal and financial advantages. And that is all there is to it.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

If you cannot, then what are we talking about?

What I said has nothing to do specifically with my arguments but with your apparent ability or inability to follow them reasonably and logically.

Reason is flawless, reasoners are not.

Tyrion:

Then why don’t you? My stance is really simple. The “piece of paper” does not add anything to, nor does it take away anything from the commitment of two people who wish to make a contract with each other to live their life together. The arrangement - of course - has legal and financial advantages. And that is all there is to it.

You’re stance is a circular argument. It begs the question.

 

[Ion]

Among other things. The personal choice of a marriage partner is a very young “invention”. Marriages used to be arranged to preserve property, to increase power, and for all sorts of other reasons. Love was not even mentioned. Many people first met their future spouse in front of the priest who performed the ceremony. The couple was not expected to stay faithful. There were morganatic marriages, (nobility to common people) where the groom extended his left hand signifying the lack mutual commitment. And these marriages were performed in catholic churches, in front of catholic clergy, with the “blessing” of the catholic church. So you’d better study history before you start to argue about the superiority of “church weddings”.

Just try to come up with something that is present in a “marriage”, but it is absent in a mutual commitment, without papers. Something that logically cannot happen in a non-marriage contract, but it always happens when the couple is married (love and commitment are already ruled out). As the link provided by ThinkingSapien shows, in that prior thread no one could point out any extra, special advantages to have a “marriage” - apart, of course the legal and financial advantages, which could be easily “decoupled” from the wedding ceremony.
…

Yep, the marriage that was set by the parents, the best one. Love comes later by the practice of good deeds toward a common purpose. Most of the parents wished and tried the best for their kids. Tristan and Isolda, Romeo and Juliet were seen at that time as stories that depict the disaster comming if you do not control your feelings. I do not say that anybody married by his parents had a fulfilling marriage but anyway compared with the one caused by the “love at first sight” much much better in results.

That piece of paper express the responsibility of the couple, a reference for the ones that might want to change their opinions and leave empty all the promisses they’v made and cause waste of time and money. Of course, hated by the one that have in his mind such option.
And Tyrion, don’t fool yourself, your marriage lasted because of the practice of good deeds toward a common purpose…

 

[Ion]

I am looking for premises and conclusions that prove that marriage should occur as the church teaches it. I know young people that just want to live together and have kids but don’t want to get married. Can anyone help?

I think that history is enough proof. Kids need both parents and are doing much better in a family with stability, at least while they grow up which is anyway a long period of time.

 

[billcu1]

I think that history is enough proof. Kids need both parents and are doing much better in a family with stability, at least while they grow up which is anyway a long period of time.

But can that be done by two people who love each other and stick together atleast for the kids? I’m not disagreeing with you at all but offering an alternative. That’s what they do with me.

 

[Ion]

But can that be done by two people who love each other and stick together atleast for the kids? I’m not disagreeing with you at all but offering an alternative. That’s what they do with me.

I am not sure I understand it. It is their choice. Marriage is a sacrament and the graces do not have equivalent. As with all the christians rules, the practice of good deeds brings benefits even if they are not made in faith in Jesus. How they value those benefits and how they judge greatly depends on circumstances, so from the very start they have a handicap. From sticking together to sharing all the traits together, happines and hardship is a distance and you can’t fake it neither you can do the same if you are not psychologically engaged. So even if it is better than a divorce, is not going to be like in a real marriage.
And the main problem is the fact that they live their life without Jesus. An atheist can’t have this experience and will never know/understand how is to live your life with Jesus because of the lack of graces.

 

[billcu1]

I am not sure I understand it. It is their choice. Marriage is a sacrament and the graces do not have equivalent. As with all the christians rules, the practice of good deeds brings benefits even if they are not made in faith in Jesus. How they value those benefits and how they judge greatly depends on circumstances, so from the very start they have a handicap. From sticking together to sharing all the traits together, happines and hardship is a distance and you can’t fake it neither you can do the same if you are not psychologically engaged. So even if it is better than a divorce, is not going to be like in a real marriage.
And the main problem is the fact that they live their life without Jesus. An atheist can’t have this experience and will never know/understand how is to live your life with Jesus because of the lack of graces.

If the graces are passed on in a catholic wedding what if a catholic is wedded in another church and has received a dispensation for this from the bishop?

 

[Ion]

If the graces are passed on in a catholic wedding what if a catholic is wedded in another church and has received a dispensation for this from the bishop?

Better to ask an apologist…