Logical argument for Catholicism?

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In the effort to convince the skeptical, I find the logical arguments for God’s existence to be irrefutable by an intellectually honest man but I have not been able to find such proofs for Catholicism as a religion.

Certainly we can prove the Jesus existed and we can conclude that the reports about him from eye witnesses were most likely true, but that’s not what I’m after.

I’m looking for something akin to the cosmological argument for God, where logically or observably correct premises necessitate the conclusion. What is the purely logical argument for Catholicism?
 
In the effort to convince the skeptical, I find the logical arguments for God’s existence to be irrefutable by an intellectually honest man but I have not been able to find such proofs for Catholicism as a religion.

Certainly we can prove the Jesus existed and we can conclude that the reports about him from eye witnesses were most likely true, but that’s not what I’m after.

I’m looking for something akin to the cosmological argument for God, where logically or observably correct premises necessitate the conclusion. What is the purely logical argument for Catholicism?
I like to believe that I am intellectually honest. However, I find the arguments for the existence of a personal god to be extremely questionable. While I certainly agree that the universe is rational (i.e. can be understood) and while I also agree that the universe must have some origin which corresponds to a rational “originating principle”, I fail to see how either of these propositions translates to a personal dieity. That is much too much like anthromorphism to suit me. We may as well say that “mathematics” is also a person or has personal attritubes like wisdom or goodness. Altogether it seems to be a throwback to paganism.

Secondly, while I think the preponderence of the evidence is that there was a historical Jesus,However, I can also see similarities to the development of a legendary figure. Much like the story of King Authur, for example. While most historians believe that there was a historical figure corresponding to the famous Authur, the story of the round table and the
Camalot-esque themes developed along lines of legend rather than fact.

I would argue that catholicism is best understood as a historical movement within a context. It has made valuable contributions to our species particularly to western culture, but, to be --as you put it–intellectually honest, you will also have to recognize it had its ugly moments.
 
Your response is precisely the heart of my question. The cosmological argument can prove an uncreated creator but it cannot prove what you are likely referring to when you say a “personal god.” It cannot prove the truth of a revealed religion. It is for people like you that I ask the question.
 
Your response is precisely the heart of my question. The cosmological argument can prove an uncreated creator but it cannot prove what you are likely referring to when you say a “personal god.” It cannot prove the truth of a revealed religion. It is for people like you that I ask the question.
I also find it implausable that this orinating primal principle would require worship, could be placated by prayer, or “reveal” himself or itself in oblique and arcane literature (the bible) and then choose to actually select one class of the species (the hebrews) as its “chosen people” to be far fetched and fanciful thinking. Additionally, since what is written in this seminal text is presumably at the inspiration of the diety, then that it would require interpretation by another favored class (the clergy), then altogether, this is simply too imaginative to be reasonably entertained by rational persons. I am afraid that you must count me out on revealed religion.
 
The Cosmological argument’s sole purpose is to prove the existence of God, it says nothing of Christ or Catholicism.

One you accept the existence of God, the question then moves on to which Religion is teaching Christ’s Truth and which isn’t. This is a whole other series of logical debates one must have through various means; namely, proof through the Bible, logical proofs through spiritual phenomena (not a large jump once you accept the existence of God), spiritual proof through experienced phenomena; personal experiences with Christ and God; as well as the works of each religion and the validity of their claim to supremacy.

Each of these is a separate subject that must be tackled to come to the conclusion of which of the Chruch’s is correct.

I am assuming that you have already accepted the existence of God, and of Christ as his son. From there, you are now looking for logical proof as to why Catholicism is the one True religion out of all the various denominations of Christianity. For this, I would direct you to read the Church fathers (Note, in this instance, Church doesn’t specifically allude to Catholicism, but rather the overarching belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God). Their writings are before the time when “Catholicism” was a defined term, and are reflections of the beliefs of the earliest Christians. Once you have read what the earliest Christians believed, those who lived in or directly after the time of Christ, the task will then become to determine which of the world’s Church’s best reflect those beliefs.

God Bless.
 
I also find it implausable that this orinating primal principle would require worship, could be placated by prayer, or “reveal” himself or itself in oblique and arcane literature (the bible) and then choose to actually select one class of the species (the hebrews) as its “chosen people” to be far fetched and fanciful thinking. Additionally, since what is written in this seminal text is presumably at the inspiration of the diety, then that it would require interpretation by another favored class (the clergy), then altogether, this is simply too imaginative to be reasonably entertained by rational persons. I am afraid that you must count me out on revealed religion.
There are a few troubling tings about your post.

#1: By accepting the existence of a primal force of creation, i.e. God, you must then accept that he has a reason behind his creation. By accepting that he has a reason, you must accept that he wants that reason known, otherwise the reason would have no way of coming to fruition. As such, revelation of that reason is the only plausible outcome, otherwise there’d be no guarantee of our capacity to determine or fulfill it.

#2: Why would you find it odd that he would select a specific group of people to guide? If you are trying to relate something to a class, which is the more effective method (for the child, not easier for the teacher), to teach then entire class as one and assume that everybody understands, or to teach it to each student individually, making sure to make accommodations for their specific method of learning? The latter method would ensure that the message reaches the student in a much clearer, much more defined manner than simply teaching to the entire class. The same is true of God’s revelations. He chose a specific people to teach, and then, after a time, set about spreading that message to the entirety of the world.
Arcane:
: known or knowable only to the initiate : secret ; broadly : mysterious, obscure
#3: Why do you call the Bible arcane? It is true that a full understanding of the Bible is pretty much impossible for a single individual to manage on their own; but this is not because the Bible is “secretive,” it’s because to understand it you have to have a deep, extensive knowledge of ancient writing styles, histories, cultures, methods of information gathering / relaying, and a myriad of other factors that all go into understanding its meaning. It’s not that it’s a secret, it’s simply that there are too many factors going into it for one person to fully comprehend on their own. In actuality, the Bible is, on it’s face, very straight forward. “Here is what I have done for you (creation), and this is how you repaid me (sin and vice). Here’s how you should live your life (10 commandments) and here’s what happens when you reject the good I have created for you(eternal death).”

#4: What about the Bible requires “interpretation” as you’re defining it? Again, it requires an in depth understanding of the factors that went into its creation, but this is knowledge that anyone, through judicious study and dedication, can obtain. The reason it generally falls to the clergy to do so is because they are pretty much the only ones who have put in the time and effort to understand it. They are also, generally, the only ones humble enough to approach it as the word of God, rather than as a simple text.

I don’t see why you find it so difficult to accept that a deity who loves us enough to create the universe for us doesn’t love use enough to do something as simple (in comparison) as telling us he loves us. That he would not do so seems far more unlikely to me than that he would.
 
I find the logical arguments for God’s existence to be irrefutable by an intellectually honest man
Then i am a dishonest man, since in my eyes the cosmological argument falls flat by concluding from our experience in this universe that everything has a cause, causual loops cannot exist and that causual chains cannot be of infinite length.
 
I also find it implausable that this orinating primal principle would require worship, could be placated by prayer, or “reveal” himself or itself in oblique and arcane literature (the bible) and then choose to actually select one class of the species (the hebrews) as its “chosen people” to be far fetched and fanciful thinking. Additionally, since what is written in this seminal text is presumably at the inspiration of the diety, then that it would require interpretation by another favored class (the clergy), then altogether, this is simply too imaginative to be reasonably entertained by rational persons. I am afraid that you must count me out on revealed religion.
While it’s off the topic of my original question, for the sake of enjoyable discourse, assume you were a creator God and there was a specific way you had intended for your creatures to act, but also wanted to give them the free will to disobey those commands. How would you choose to reveal your code of morality?
 
This is a whole other series of logical debates one must have through various means; namely, proof through the Bible, logical proofs through spiritual phenomena (not a large jump once you accept the existence of God), spiritual proof through experienced phenomena; personal experiences with Christ and God; as well as the works of each religion and the validity of their claim to supremacy.
This is exactly the kind of debate I don’t want. The deist has none of these beliefs or experiences and they cannot provide rational proof.
Each of these is a separate subject that must be tackled to come to the conclusion of which of the Chruch’s is correct.
The question at this point in the argument is not which church is correct but is religion even necessary.
 
While it’s off the topic of my original question, for the sake of enjoyable discourse, assume you were a creator God and there was a specific way you had intended for your creatures to act, but also wanted to give them the free will to disobey those commands. How would you choose to reveal your code of morality?
Me, personally? I’d probably pop in in person and tell you directly. I’d also leave a series of binding rules, because otherwise people won’t listen to me (it’s human nature. We barely listen to the rules we have >_>) I would not stick around permanently, because, in a way, that would impede people’s capacity to chose for themselves. However, I am human, so I cannot comprehend God’s ways.

That said, he did give us the Ten Commandments (definitive set of rules), and he did come down to tell us directly (Jesus)…
 
Then i am a dishonest man, since in my eyes the cosmological argument falls flat by concluding from our experience in this universe that everything has a cause, causual loops cannot exist and that causual chains cannot be of infinite length.
When most people look at the cosmological argument, they look to the material world. What you have proposed is a lot closer to how I interpret it. I pose to you, what caused the rule that causal loops can exist, or cannot?
 
This is exactly the kind of debate I don’t want. The deist has none of these beliefs or experiences and they cannot provide rational proof.
Whether you want them or not is immaterial. To arrive at truth, they are debates which must be undertaken. How can you arrive at deism (the rejection of a revealed Truth) without first rejecting the revealed truth which exists? If you reject it without having studied it, then you are a fool who is not seeking truth, but rather is seeking whatever makes his life easiest; or whatever allows him to reach a conclusion that sounds good to him, without actually considering the truth of the alternatives.

If you reject the debate because you are unwilling to enter into it, then at the end of the day you cannot claim to have any definite answer, because you did not consider all the evidence and potentials.
The question at this point in the argument is not which church is correct but is religion even necessary.
As a result of free will, without the binding force of religion people will interpret “the truth” for themselves however they see fit. This effect has lead to beliefs which kill non-believers simply for having an alternate view, beliefs which reject any good in the world, beliefs which reject God entirely, beliefs that give up seeking truth because they don’t think they’ll ever find it, and any number of other beliefs, based on person interpretation and the selfish mentality that rejects the concept that what they want may not be what’s right.

Religion, a guided religion, lead by the creator, is absolutely necessary for the comprehension of the real Truth.
 
When most people look at the cosmological argument, they look to the material world. What you have proposed is a lot closer to how I interpret it. I pose to you, what caused the rule that causal loops can exist, or cannot?
Causal loops can exist, just not infinite ones. It is absolutely necessary, due to physics, among other things, that something set a causal loop in motion. Without an initial action, there can be no reaction; and without that initial reaction, there would be nothing to set a causal loop in motion. People who reject the concept of an initial action are not only rejecting physics, they are rejection rationality and logic.

Note: This is only referencing causal loops within the sphere of “Physical Existence,” that is, this universe, or any other universe, which exists “physically.”
 
I also find it implausable that this orinating primal principle would require worship, could be placated by prayer, or “reveal” himself or itself in oblique and arcane literature (the bible) and then choose to actually select one class of the species (the hebrews) as its “chosen people” to be far fetched and fanciful thinking. Additionally, since what is written in this seminal text is presumably at the inspiration of the diety, then that it would require interpretation by another favored class (the clergy), then altogether, this is simply too imaginative to be reasonably entertained by rational persons. I am afraid that you must count me out on revealed religion.
Easy to see that you have so far removed yourself from God, and wrapped yourself in layers of disbelief and disapproval of religion, that nothing said here could reach you. What is so obvious and comforting to most, is far beyond touching you. If you find comfort in your aloneness, so be it. Most of us find the personal, loving concern of God for us to be vital. I can’t conceive of living, even a moment, without knowing for certain that God cares, and even has assigned us each his/her own personal Guardian Angel. You will have to, on your own, unpeel those layers of disbelief, and walk closer to God. Even a few steps will bring some of His warmth your way. It’s sad to know what you are depriving yourself of, but it’s your choice. Good luck and God bless.
 
Me, personally? I’d probably pop in in person and tell you directly. I’d also leave a series of binding rules, because otherwise people won’t listen to me (it’s human nature. We barely listen to the rules we have >_>) I would not stick around permanently, because, in a way, that would impede people’s capacity to chose for themselves. However, I am human, so I cannot comprehend God’s ways.

That said, he did give us the Ten Commandments (definitive set of rules), and he did come down to tell us directly (Jesus)…
Thank you for making my point for me at the end there. =)

None of this is proof of any kind and the rational thinker is still free to believe otherwise but since you questioned Catholicism’s claimed method of moral code delivery, it was a necessary deviation.

I personally might have chosen to appear to each individual person in an undeniable way but I, like you, can’t really question His methods.
 
Whether you want them or not is immaterial.
Sorry, by “don’t want” I mean “not the type of proof I’m looking for.” I am trying to approach “the Truth” from a purely rational standpoint rather than one that relies on revelation or religious experience.
 
Thank you for making my point for me at the end there. =)
That last line was thrown in as a bit of a joke, because I knew how you’d react to it 😛 Sorry for not making that clear, my bad.
None of this is proof of any kind and the rational thinker is still free to believe otherwise but since you questioned Catholicism’s claimed method of moral code delivery, it was a necessary deviation.
Agreed, I didn’t offer it as proof. In my opinion, proof can only come from God once a person is genuinely seeking him. Science is 100% unable to provide proof either for or against God, that is why it is a matter of faith.
I personally might have chosen to appear to each individual person in an undeniable way but I, like you, can’t really question His methods.
At first, this is how I thought I would do it to, but that was a long time ago, and a great deal more thought has gone into my approach since then. The reason I ultimately rejected this was:

God gave us free will. This means he wants everyone to be able to decide for themselves whether they will except him or reject him. Ultimately, this is because a forced love is not true love; love can only be given freely, by choice. He wants us to chose him, but allows us not to, because he wants our love freely, not through binding. To reveal himself to us (us, in this instance referring to non-believers) in an undeniable manner would negate their free will. To “know” as, say, science wants to “know” things, would make any rational dissension impossible. To reject God, with full knowledge that you will suffer for eternity, period, would be illogical and irrational, and no sane person would make that choice. At that point, the love we give him would cease to be a love freely given, there would no longer be any real choice. It is for that reason I believe he does not chose the method you suggest.

Following from this, I believe the reason that he does chose to reveal himself to believers is because it will not affect their decision in the same way. A person who believes has already made their decision, and they have already choose to give God their love. Hence, revealing himself to them won’t fore the decision, a its already been made.
 
Bort

** What is the purely logical argument for Catholicism?**

That it is the only Christian faith that can trace its historical origins back to Peter and Paul at Rome, and from them back to Jesus at Jerusalem. 👍
 
Sorry, by “don’t want” I mean “not the type of proof I’m looking for.” I am trying to approach “the Truth” from a purely rational standpoint rather than one that relies on revelation or religious experience.
… but… that’s ridiculous… no offense. That’s like saying, I’m going to try to derive the theory of relativity without math. To outright reject the religious experience of everyone who’s had one throughout history is to blind yourself to a major part of religious discussion.

You could, technically, do this, but it would require you to accept natural law, which is a religious precept. That is, there is a set of absolute rules that embodies what is right and what is wrong; these laws are instilled on the heart of man from the moment of their creation. These rules, and what is truly right and good, can be determined through rational thought and reflection on the human condition and nature.

If you reject natural law because it is a religious precept, then it becomes impossible to arrive at truth rationally because there is no baseline for what is true and what isn’t. This is called relativism, and it is a fallacy of thinking.
 
In the effort to convince the skeptical, I find the logical arguments for God’s existence to be irrefutable by an intellectually honest man but I have not been able to find such proofs for Catholicism as a religion.

Certainly we can prove the Jesus existed and we can conclude that the reports about him from eye witnesses were most likely true, but that’s not what I’m after.

I’m looking for something akin to the cosmological argument for God, where logically or observably correct premises necessitate the conclusion. What is the purely logical argument for Catholicism?
What cemented the Catholic Church as “my” Church was archeology. I saw a program on the History Channel (possibly the Learning Channel or National Geographic Channel) that was about the history and architecture of St Peter’s Basilica. Long story short; a 2,000 year old man was buried under the basilica with injuries consistant with upside-down crucifixion (ie: Peter). This re-discovery was made in the mid-20th century. This was not a “religion-based” program, but rather a scientific one.

If the Chief of the Apostles that Jesus ordered to ‘feed and tend His sheep’ were buried under a Lutheren Church somewhere, or in Salt Lake City, or in some other place NOT distinctly Catholic; I may have looked in other directions as far as Christianity is concerned.

Given the archeological evidence, followed by my own Biblical/theological studies, I have arrived at my Christian “home.” That was the ‘logic’ that led me to Catholicism. Hope this helps.
 
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