Logical issue on the Son's merits and grace poured on Mary

[MarcoPG]

Hello,
I have been thinking of this, I hope I made a mistake in my understanding, because if not, it is impossible to understand

So: The Son as divine Person is eternal.

The Son incarnation happened only in a moment in time, so Jesus’ body isn’t eternal, but everlasting: He wasn’t there as a man before he was conceived, but lives forever from the point of his conception, as we do, no matter what we chose, Heaven or Hell.

Then after the Ascension, Jesus the Son is with both Body and Spirit in Heaven as He was as God the Son before the world began.

OK, my mind has some problems here Since Mother Mary was saved before her Conception in the original sin by the merits, vertues of his Son, justified and saved by His sacrifice, it apparently means the Sacrifice “already happened” in Eternity; it would be logical.

But then: Did Jesus as a man already have to be in Heaven in Order for Mary to be made Immaculate? Because the vertues and merits of the son come from His sacrifice, nnot the graces that he may give as He pleases as God.

I think it may be the grace of the Father because of the Son sacrifice yet to happen in time, or the Son’s grace before he came to the world.

What I ask then is: Can someone give me a good causal explanation? I will reread the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. I hope to see that Jesus Body wasn’t there from all Eternity as already slained…
I also hope you can follow my reasoning

Thanks

 

[HarrisonJ]

Hi Marco,

Your question is very deep and I’m afraid I’m a little too drunk to contemplate getting too far into your logic.

However:

1. Are you familiar with St. Augustine’s concept of the ‘Eternal Present’?
2. I take it you are aware that as Catholics we draw a straight line between Adam & Eve and Mary (the New Eve) and Jesus (the Son of Man)?
3. Consider the exact wording of the Angelus Prayer (even better, set alarms for midday & 6pm and pray it daily; it doesn’t take long)
4. Read this: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4270

It is long and, by way of loose understatement, intense. It will not answer your question directly, though it will go a long way - if you have the IQ, comprehension or willpower to decipher it - to explaining Mary’s role and her relationship with the Holy Spirit:
4b. Maybe you’re a little soused like your’s truly (or maybe a neophyte in waiting), though Mary, despite being conceived without the stain of sin, nonetheless relied on Jesus for redemption, like the rest of us. This is classic dogma.

 

[HarrisonJ]

PS: Re Angelus, 2nd verse: Be it done unto me according to Thy WORD.

Jesus & Mary are inexorably linked. This, amongst other things is what Protestants miss. Viz. were there no Mary, there would be no Christ. This is why she is Co-Redeemer. Not ‘co’ as in equal, ‘co’ as in involved.

 

[Razanir]

I’ll let the Doctor explain this one. Youtube

God’s outside of time. So even if the sacrifice didn’t happen for a few decades after the Immaculate Conception, it could still pour grace out on Mary.

 

[MarcoPG]

Hi Marco,

Your question is very deep and I’m afraid I’m a little too drunk to contemplate getting too far into your logic.

However:

1. Are you familiar with St. Augustine’s concept of the ‘Eternal Present’?
2. I take it you are aware that as Catholics we draw a straight line between Adam & Eve and Mary (the New Eve) and Jesus (the Son of Man)?
3. Consider the exact wording of the Angelus Prayer (even better, set alarms for midday & 6pm and pray it daily; it doesn’t take long)
4. Read this: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4270

It is long and, by way of loose understatement, intense. It will not answer your question directly, though it will go a long way - if you have the IQ, comprehension or willpower to decipher it - to explaining Mary’s role and her relationship with the Holy Spirit:
4b. Maybe you’re a little soused like your’s truly (or maybe a neophyte in waiting), though Mary, despite being conceived without the stain of sin, nonetheless relied on Jesus for redemption, like the rest of us. This is classic dogma.

1. Yes, but it seems I may misunderstand it in some way
   2.Sure
2. I will try to.
3. same as 3

 

[Razanir]

I’ll let the Doctor explain this one. Youtube

God’s outside of time. So even if the sacrifice didn’t happen for a few decades after the Immaculate Conception, it could still pour grace out on Mary.

Actually, how had I not noticed that analogy before.

Blink. The Doctor gets a transcript of the conversation from the future, and brings it to the past.

The Immaculate Conception. God uses Jesus’ death on Calvary in the relative future to pour out saving grace on Mary in the past.

 

[MarcoPG]

Yes, i get this. My question was what made the grace of Jesus’ death possible? His actual sacrifice in time, or just the potential event, which would eventually happen? I guess the last one.

 

[Razanir]

Yes, i get this. My question was what made the grace of Jesus’ death possible? His actual sacrifice in time, or just the potential event, which would eventually happen? I guess the last one.

No, the first one. His actual death. Again, wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey. God didn’t have to wait until after Jesus’ death to start using it to pour out graces.

 

[MarcoPG]

No, the first one. His actual death. Again, wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey. God didn’t have to wait until after Jesus’ death to start using it to pour out graces.

I see. So my misunderstanding is on the fact that what happens in time is already known from all eternity, but i shouldn’t forget space. So if the grace of Jesus’ death can act in the future towards the past, or retroactively, it doesn’t mean that also the Ascension is the same, and that Jesus’ body, because his deah made grace possible, had to be with body and soul in Heaven from the beginning. That would be wrong to think that His body is Eternal, but still I want to see it more clearly. I hope I will. It may serve others.

 

[JerryZ]

Yes, i get this. My question was what made the grace of Jesus’ death possible? His actual sacrifice in time, or just the potential event, which would eventually happen? I guess the last one.

Since GOD is outside of the constraints set by time to us mortals, HE can apply the merit of Jesus death and resurrection to ALL the faithful servants who had gone to the dust since Adam and Eve. They, we are told in the Old Testament were waiting paciently in the “Abraham’s bosom” for the Mesiah to come and free them.
We are also told in the New Testamemt that Jesus DID that. Descended to “the abode of the dead” to free the meritous waiting souls there.

Now if GOD, can use Jesus sacrifice retroactively to “save” the souls that were imprisoned in “Hades” whatever hades may be, it seems pretty obvious HE can apply the same principle to Mary’s future mom of Jesus.
Past and future have no meaning to GOD as HE lives in the eternal now.

---

 

[Back2Church]

This kind of hits on a question I’ve had for a while. God is eternal and immutable, and Jesus is God. But Jesus did not have a human nature or body before the incarnation, and now he does. Is this not a change, contradicting the idea that God is immutable? Also, if God is outside of time, how can there be a “before and after” status of Jesus without and with a human nature/body?

 

[MarcoPG]

Right. ANdthat other little problem?

If the grace of Jesus’ death can act in the future towards the past, or retroactively, it doesn’t mean that also the Ascension is the same, and that Jesus’ body, because his deah made grace possible, had to be with body and soul in Heaven from the beginning. That would be wrong to think that His body is Eternal, but still I want to see it more clearly. I hope I will. It may serve others.

 

[MarcoPG]

This kind of hits on a question I’ve had for a while. God is eternal and immutable, and Jesus is God. But Jesus did not have a human nature or body before the incarnation, and now he does. Is this not a change, contradicting the idea that God is immutable? Also, if God is outside of time, how can there be a “before and after” status of Jesus without and with a human nature/body?

Well here I see no problem, because The immutable nature took a finite nature. The nature of God, or God, does not change, it integrates something new. By this the Human is exalted, but the divine remain unchanged in glory; just we are glorified.

Am I right?

 

[JerryZ]

This kind of hits on a question I’ve had for a while. God is eternal and immutable, and Jesus is God. But Jesus did not have a human nature or body before the incarnation, and now he does. Is this not a change, contradicting the idea that God is immutable? Also, if God is outside of time, how can there be a “before and after” status of Jesus without and with a human nature/body?

GOD the Father is Eternal an Inmutable, God the Son is eternal but HE chose to become incarnate an doing it in the most similar way we humans come to existance, the only difference is HE did not have an earthly father.

Therefore while HE was on this earth he behaved and respected the constrains normal humans have.

Since we were not there we cannot say that Jesus had a phisical body from the beginning, Had GOD chosen to give it to HIS SON I believe he could do it.

The before and after only affects us creatures that live inside or affected by time.

---

 

[MarcoPG]

Since we were not there we cannot say that Jesus had a phisical body from the beginning, Had GOD chosen to give it to HIS SON I believe he could do it.

The before and after only affects us creatures that live inside or affected by time.

---

What are the arguements which we use to reject that The Son had a body? For sure it was created at His conception, but how do we explain this when Eternity is involved?

If what happened is already there in eternity, why is it impossible that Jesus’ sacrificed body was in Heaven? I can resolve this only be saying thatJesus took on human flesh at a moment in time, but I can’t demonstrate it philosophically.

 

[JerryZ]

What are the arguements which we use to reject that The Son had a body? For sure it was created at His conception, but how do we explain this when Eternity is involved?

If what happened is already there in eternity, why is it impossible that Jesus’ sacrificed body was in Heaven? I can resolve this only be saying thatJesus took on human flesh at a moment in time, but I can’t demonstrate it philosophically.

So what is the logic? GOD who created the whole Universe out of nothing somehow is unable to create Jesus’s body if HE so wished to do?

I am NOT saying that GOD actually did this but I am no one to preclude that it can be done
.
Either HE IS omnipotent or HE is not.

---

 

[Back2Church]

So what is the logic? GOD who created the whole Universe out of nothing somehow is unable to create Jesus’s body if HE so wished to do?

I am NOT saying that GOD actually did this but I am no one to preclude that it can be done
.
Either HE IS omnipotent or HE is not.

---

It’s not a question about what God can or cannot do. Obviously nothing is impossible to God.

The question is this: it is church teaching that Jesus did not have a human body/nature until he took it on in His incarnation. But Jesus is eternal. So how does that work? How can an eternal being, outside of time, have a human body/nature only after a particular event has taken place in time (and not have that human body/nature prior to that event) if he always has, always is, and always will be? That’s what I’m trying to wrap my head around.

 

[MarcoPG]

So what is the logic? GOD who created the whole Universe out of nothing somehow is unable to create Jesus’s body if HE so wished to do?

I am NOT saying that GOD actually did this but I am no one to preclude that it can be done
.
Either HE IS omnipotent or HE is not.

---

No one says He is not omnipotent. But we know He cannot act illogically. So I am looking for a way to understand Eternity when things change in time. Since the merits of Christ come from his sacrifice, so that Mary also could be saved, I was wondering if someone has a way to demonstrate that Jesus’ body wasn’t there in Heaven from all eternity.

We just know God is omnipotent and does what He wants. But to say God is onmipotent doesn’t show any logical path of understanding some things. We can somehow understand the Trinity, just a bit, so the rest should also make it. So that this is a mystery is not an answer either.

 

[MarcoPG]

It’s not a question about what God can or cannot do. Obviously nothing is impossible to God.

The question is this: it is church teaching that Jesus did not have a human body/nature until he took it on in His incarnation. But Jesus is eternal. So how does that work? How can an eternal being, outside of time, have a human body/nature only after a particular event has taken place in time (and not have that human body/nature prior to that event) if he always has, always is, and always will be? That’s what I’m trying to wrap my head around.

I think we are not talking aboutthe same exact thing: Here I can say. The Son didn’t change, he took on the human nature, and we know the divine one remains the same. Some he didn’t change, he made us change.

My question is because grace comes from Christ’s sacrifice, It would need for that grace to be poured on Mary that Jesus already died in time. and I feel and know I am missing something here, since it is true that God gives grace outside of time. Just that grace coming from an historical event, I am a bit lost.

 

[Viki63]

Rev 13:8: “. . . the Lamb who was slain from the creation (or foundation) of the world.”

I take it to mean that Christ’s sacrifice was always, eternally, part of His nature. Not that He specifically had a human body which was sacrificed before the world was made, but that it’s who He is.
So His sacrifice could be applied to anyone, at any time, by God.