Long (distance) engagement?

[Lourdes16]

Hello everyone!

I could use some sound, prudential Catholic advice.

My boyfriend and I have been dating for a year, and are deeply in love and very committed and serious. We’re both devout Catholics and want to live the Church’s teachings faithfully. We are also both graduate students (he is taking a couple classes a semester online while working full-time and I am in a very intense program taking double the full-time credit load, no job) and both anticipate graduating in the Spring of 2016. He lives 4 hours from my school, and 2 hours from my parents’ home.

The dilemma is this: we want to get married, and both find a long courtship/engagement unsavory because of the accompanying temptations to impurity. We are tentatively planning marrying the summer after we graduate, but several friends of ours have told us we’re crazy because they could never last waiting two years. My parents have discouraged us from getting engaged yet (though he’s bought a ring) because they think it will be a distraction from school and one less mental barrier to being unchaste.

We’ve discussed getting married next summer, but there are several things that seem to exclude that option. 1) Though we’d learn NFP, I’m worried about getting pregnant because I do not take good care of myself at school, I can’t afford to feel miserable or sick, and newlyweds seem to be most likely to fudge the ‘rules’. 2) I will be spending that following fall in Europe for my program, which means we would not see each other much. But on the other hand, it would make arrangements for him to come visit me easier. 3) It’s been very distracting and an emotional strain dating from a distance, and we’re worried that adding the marital dimension and intimacy will make the separation exceedingly more difficult.

On the other hand, the risk of tempting ourselves for so long seems altogether unreasonable and foolish. Though we’ve been pretty good so far, it will only get harder.

I hope this is clear. I look forward to your replies and thank you in advance!

 

[Xantippe]

Hello everyone!

I could use some sound, prudential Catholic advice.

My boyfriend and I have been dating for a year, and are deeply in love and very committed and serious. We’re both devout Catholics and want to live the Church’s teachings faithfully. We are also both graduate students (he is taking a couple classes a semester online while working full-time and I am in a very intense program taking double the full-time credit load, no job) and both anticipate graduating in the Spring of 2016. He lives 4 hours from my school, and 2 hours from my parents’ home.

The dilemma is this: we want to get married, and both find a long courtship/engagement unsavory because of the accompanying temptations to impurity.

**That’s kind of nullified by the distances involved, though. **

We are tentatively planning marrying the summer after we graduate, but several friends of ours have told us we’re crazy because they could never last waiting two years. My parents have discouraged us from getting engaged yet (though he’s bought a ring) because they think it will be a distraction from school and one less mental barrier to being unchaste.

**Eh, I would suggest choosing a time that works for you.

One option is getting engaged, going through wedding prep, setting a tentative early summer 2016 date, but also discussing with a sympathetic priest the possibility of doing an earlier wedding as the situation develops. **

We’ve discussed getting married next summer, but there are several things that seem to exclude that option. 1) Though we’d learn NFP, I’m worried about getting pregnant because I do not take good care of myself at school, I can’t afford to feel miserable or sick, and newlyweds seem to be most likely to fudge the ‘rules’. 2) I will be spending that following fall in Europe for my program, which means we would not see each other much. But on the other hand, it would make arrangements for him to come visit me easier. 3) It’s been very distracting and an emotional strain dating from a distance, and we’re worried that adding the marital dimension and intimacy will make the separation exceedingly more difficult.

On the other hand, the risk of tempting ourselves for so long seems altogether unreasonable and foolish. Though we’ve been pretty good so far, it will only get harder.

I hope this is clear. I look forward to your replies and thank you in advance!

That is tricky.

Ideally, you’d start out your married life living under the same roof, but summer 2016 is a long way away.

Maybe get married next summer, have the whole summer together, and then get through the next school year somehow? You can start learning NFP now and faithfully charting and just plan to be really, really conservative with the NFP. If it’s a choice between no cake (marry summer 2016) and some cake (marry summer 2015 and do conservative NFP), some cake is easier.

My husband and I got married in graduate school, did NFP as newlyweds, and had our first baby about a year after he graduated and got his first job–four years after we got married. It can be done.

Also, how about taking better care of yourself at school? Pregnancy aside, if you aren’t eating or sleeping properly, you will get sick. Also, poor self-care might screw up your cycles, which would be a major inconvenience.

 

[1ke]

several friends of ours have told us we’re crazy because they could never last waiting two years.

But this really isn’t about them, is it? So it doesn’t matter what they could or could not do or what they think

My parents have discouraged us from getting engaged yet (though he’s bought a ring) because they think it will be a distraction from school and one less mental barrier to being unchaste.

If you are in graduate school, and he is too and working full time, then I assume you are well past the age where you parents should be talking to you about chastity.

We’ve discussed getting married next summer, but there are several things that seem to exclude that option. 1) Though we’d learn NFP, I’m worried about getting pregnant because I do not take good care of myself at school, I can’t afford to feel miserable or sick, and newlyweds seem to be most likely to fudge the ‘rules’. 2) I will be spending that following fall in Europe for my program, which means we would not see each other much. But on the other hand, it would make arrangements for him to come visit me easier. 3) It’s been very distracting and an emotional strain dating from a distance, and we’re worried that adding the marital dimension and intimacy will make the separation exceedingly more difficult.

Doesn’t sound like you are fully committed to marriage. Neither of you has suggested changing programs or locations. Sounds like you want to be married and stay separate and on your various school tracks.

I really don’t understand that. You either want to start your life together or you don’t. You both seem to be more committed to your graduate programs than to marriage. And if you get married, then accept that you may have children, and that may delay (or derail) your graduate studies. It happens. I have friends who were on the 20 year degree plan due to marriage and children. Not the end of the world.

If you decide your career and graduate degree plans are more important then that is your decision, and it’s not anyone’s business, but just recognize it for what it is.

I look forward to your replies and thank you in advance!

Find a third way that allows you to be married and together. Or not.

 

[Xantippe]

Doesn’t sound like you are fully committed to marriage. Neither of you has suggested changing programs or locations. Sounds like you want to be married and stay separate and on your various school tracks.

They’re both so close to finishing, though–less than two academic years left is nothing for a graduate program.

I think it’s worthwhile to give it a good hard push and get through, especially if it means that either or both of them will be able to get good jobs afterward.

OP, what are the work prospects for both of you after this?

 

[Winter_Warlock_1]

My view is - you both need to finish your schooling. You are both still young, I would guess int he mid 20s. 1.5 years is not long to wait to spend the rest of your lives together. Get schooling done - get jobs - get married. . . start a family when you are both ready - established in your jobs - and able to live as a family of Faith and love.

I will pray that God grants you both strength and peace.

Winter

 

[Lourdes16]

We’ve been hearing this advice - “get married and love will find a way!” - from other strong, Catholic, married couples. I would assume they’re pretty wise in such matters. Like I said, I think that we can do it but why risk it? If we slip, we’re in mortal sin territory. In fact, the distance factor makes to seem things worse; passions are high when we see and part from each other, and we both feel the urgency to ‘make the most’ of our visit.

We started making plans months ago to get married this upcoming summer, actually. The difficulties involved discouraged us from that idea. But we’re revisiting the plan because he has in fact moved closer than he used to be; he just couldn’t find a job in the city I’m in.

I’ve been very torn about continuing my education when it makes being together now difficult, and the tension of having a career as well as a family. I spent the spring seriously contemplating dropping out. But I’ve already invested a lot in school, I’ve declared for years that this was my dream, and my family has sacrificed a lot to help me out and they’re so proud of me. But we’re much more employable with Master’s degrees. We both have liberal arts backgrounds, but he’s studying statistics now and I’m in architecture.

 

[ClearWater]

My view is - you both need to finish your schooling. You are both still young, I would guess int he mid 20s. 1.5 years is not long to wait to spend the rest of your lives together. Get schooling done - get jobs - **get married. . . start a family when you are both ready **- established in your jobs - and able to live as a family of Faith and love.

I will pray that God grants you both strength and peace.

Winter

 

[Xantippe]

We’ve been hearing this advice - “get married and love will find a way!” - from other strong, Catholic, married couples. I would assume they’re pretty wise in such matters. Like I said, I think that we can do it but why risk it? If we slip, we’re in mortal sin territory. In fact, the distance factor makes to seem things worse; passions are high when we see and part from each other, and we both feel the urgency to ‘make the most’ of our visit.

We started making plans months ago to get married this upcoming summer, actually. The difficulties involved discouraged us from that idea. But we’re revisiting the plan because he has in fact moved closer than he used to be; he just couldn’t find a job in the city I’m in.

You guys aren’t close-close, but you’re close enough that getting married and having a commuter marriage for a single school year isn’t nuts.

I’ve been very torn about continuing my education when it makes being together now difficult, and the tension of having a career as well as a family. I spent the spring seriously contemplating dropping out. But I’ve already invested a lot in school, I’ve declared for years that this was my dream, and my family has sacrificed a lot to help me out and they’re so proud of me. But we’re much more employable with Master’s degrees. We both have liberal arts backgrounds, but he’s studying statistics now and I’m in architecture.

Are you borrowing money for your graduate school? If you are planning on staying home with children, that could create a substantial burden for your future family. (One of our SAHM posters is very regretful of her MA debt.)

At this point, you don’t know that you can or will have children, or how soon that might happen. I would not encourage you to drop out on the chance that you will have a family immediately, because you might never have children. On the other hand, it is also unwise to borrow a lot of money to get a degree you are planning not to use.

If you have a little time, see if you can take a personal finance course together (maybe online). That may clarify things.

Best wishes!

 

[NightFisher]

Hello,
I hope I can offer a different perspective. Currently, my fiancee is in medical school and I am now finishing up graduate school (M.S.). We started dating while we were both undergrads and I spoke to her father and proposed after a little less than 3 years together. Right now, we live 1.5-2 hours apart and see each other once or twice a month on average (more so as the wedding approaches). One issue that many people have with our relationship is that we will most likely not be living together right away. This has solicited questions from her family, our friends, etc. One person even asked us why we would get married if we cannot live together. My thought/response is this: Marriage is not about living together. (Also, it is not solely about sex, though, yes, I agree those temptations are there.) Marriage (briefly) is about joining a man and a woman together as one through the grace of God, and each person fully committing themselves to the other. This can be done even if living together is not feasible initially.
Something else to be said is that we might live even farther apart once I find a job. There’s no getting around the fact that this will be difficult. To those that wonder if a career is worth this separation: I don’t know yet. I do know this: I have applied and interviewed for multiple jobs in the last few months and made it even into the top two candidates. Every time I have been passed over due to my lack of an M.S., even though I will be receiving this degree in December. It is amazing what power a little piece of paper seems to have. I am not saying I cannot get a different job, and I will do what is necessary as our lives continue. As for right now, we have both invested many resources into our education so that we might have jobs that we enjoy and will help society. If we can obtain these jobs, than it is our responsibility to attempt this. Not at the expense of our marriage or faith of course, but instead to strengthen them as we progress in our lives.
So should you get married? I cannot answer that. I am an old-fashioned guy and preferred a relatively] long courtship. But is it possible to have a loving relationship that does not require you to live together? Yes.
Will children create an issue for you? Maybe, but everyone, Catholic or otherwise, if they are engaging in sexual relations, should know that children can result in such actions and be prepared to accept them. In fact, that is one of the major purposes for sex, so unless you are prepared for children, it is my opinion (just opinion) that you should abstain. Living with temptation might be difficult, but the reward is worth any difficulties that you might encounter in this world.
I hope that helps and does not upset too many people. My prayers are with you.

 

[UbiCaritas]

This is something that, while we can offer some perspective, you will probably need to decide for yourselves as a couple.

My DH and I dated and were engaged long-distance. It is possible to do this and stay chaste, though I should also mention that we only had a 6-month-long engagement. Insofar as that goes, we used two common sense rules that we kind of created for ourselves:

–No overnights;

and

–No physical affection except in public. This meant that we could hold hands while out walking, give hello/goodbye hugs and kisses with the door open, that kind of thing, but once we were in either apartment, no physical contact. For us, this provided a pretty good balance between on the one hand learning how to use non-sexual physical affection (something that is really important in any marriage) while staying away from temptation. (We weren’t going to start making out while at dinner. )

We also kept busy while together–no sitting together on a couch for hours in an otherwise-empty apartment unless we were watching a movie, and then we kept space between us.

It was difficult sometimes, but certainly not impossible, and having a firm date set actually really helped: since we knew it was only X number of months/weeks/whatever until we were married, we knew we could wait that long. Being indefinitely engaged would have been much, much harder.

 

[Xantippe]

This is something that, while we can offer some perspective, you will probably need to decide for yourselves as a couple.

My DH and I dated and were engaged long-distance. It is possible to do this and stay chaste, though I should also mention that we only had a 6-month-long engagement. Insofar as that goes, we used two common sense rules that we kind of created for ourselves:

–No overnights;

and

–No physical affection except in public. This meant that we could hold hands while out walking, give hello/goodbye hugs and kisses with the door open, that kind of thing, but once we were in either apartment, no physical contact. For us, this provided a pretty good balance between on the one hand learning how to use non-sexual physical affection (something that is really important in any marriage) while staying away from temptation. (We weren’t going to start making out while at dinner. )

We also kept busy while together–no sitting together on a couch for hours in an otherwise-empty apartment unless we were watching a movie, and then we kept space between us.

It was difficult sometimes, but certainly not impossible, and having a firm date set actually really helped: since we knew it was only X number of months/weeks/whatever until we were married, we knew we could wait that long. Being indefinitely engaged would have been much, much harder.

Yes, having a finish line makes things easier. (Although with NFP, who knows!)

 

[Lourdes16]

Thanks for the feedback!

Just talking recently about getting married this upcoming summer has both he and I quite excited. It’s amazing how different and manageable chastity seems now if we do have a goal in mind! There are so many complications of planning a wedding in the next 6-7 months and then maintaining a marriage outside proximity to each other, but I think that the Lord will take care of us and that the benefits and graces of the sacrament will make it all worthwhile.

I appreciate the different perspectives. We have known several people who are married from a distance. and that always seemed like a threat for setting a good foundation for a marriage. I’m of the opinion now that it might be more detrimental to the relationship staying in this holding position for so long. There seems to be no point to dating anymore because we’ve already discerned marriage.

He’s five years older than I and held a full-time job for a while. I have not and am much more dependent on my parents. They’re helping pay for my education as well as loaned me a car. And I am anxious about their opinion because I’m sure they won’t be in favor of the idea and I don’t know if I can respectfully dismiss their (name removed by moderator)ut

 

[Lourdes16]

Are you borrowing money for your graduate school? If you are planning on staying home with children, that could create a substantial burden for your future family. (One of our SAHM posters is very regretful of her MA debt.)

At this point, you don’t know that you can or will have children, or how soon that might happen. I would not encourage you to drop out on the chance that you will have a family immediately, because you might never have children. On the other hand, it is also unwise to borrow a lot of money to get a degree you are planning not to use.

If you have a little time, see if you can take a personal finance course together (maybe online). That may clarify things.

Best wishes!

I am borrowing money, as it is an expensive program at a prestigious school. But there are very good prospects for getting a good job with a decent salary. I want to be a good mom, and I hope that I will be able to stay home with my children at some point. But I was raised in a Catholic home, homeschooled, with seven children and my mom always seemed haggard and unfulfilled and embittered looking after us and being stuck at home. I think that had a lot to do with insecurities about my dad’s job and her own perfectionist pressures to be a perfect Catholic homeschool family. But she has insisted that I will regret not finishing my degree.

I also really love academic pursuits, and I think that I will want to go back to a fulfilling career when my children are grown (if I have any, God willing!)

A finance course is also a good idea. I will have to look into that!

 

[EasterJoy]

In my experience, such a long wait does not usually work–the couple almost always breaks up at least once or else moves up the date–EXCEPT when the reason for the wait is a deployment or graduate schools too far away to see each other regularly.

This is because the school that accepts Mr. Right for medical school does not automatically extend an invitation to Ms. Right (nor even Mrs. Right) for their law school program, and darn, but these really bright people who extend their education beyond college have this way of falling for each other. My husband and I did a long-distance courtship followed by a long-distance marriage. We found this is very common among graduate students in the sciences and in medicine–meaning medical school and residency–because a) you don’t just get to choose where you go and b) the time demands of the schooling make the separation a bit less onerous. Running down my little mental list, I’d say that the resulting marriages worked out very well. I can’t think of a divorce in the lot, off the top of my head. (Divorce risk does fall with educational attainment, though.) If you don’t have friends in your program attempting the same thing, I would be surprised.

I married part-way through my graduate school program and my husband’s medical training. I would absolutely do it all over again, although I probably would have looked harder for a transfer in order to be in the same city sooner. You think you’re going to “lose ground,” but 25 years later that doesn’t seem like such a big thing. Also, graduate schools, medical schools, and residencies are becoming far more accommodating of the reality that bright people marry each other and want to start having babies before they are 30. There was a time when having a baby during your program would have “ruined a career,” but for the most part, we do not live in those times. (Check your programs about this; many have written maternity policies.)

The main thing is to wait long enough that you are certain you want to marry each other. After that–and only after that–don’t noodle around about it. Get married. This is especially true since you are close enough to see each other regularly, rather than one of you being in Boston and the other in LA, as is so often the case in these situations.

Incidentally, you will want to be married by the time you job-hunt, even from a secular perpsective. Employers such as universities absolutely do try to find a place for the spouses of the prospects that they really want, but they do not extend this for someone the prospect has not even made a commitment to stick with. You will also find that things like health care and so on are easier to deal with when you’re able to share those benefits. I know a couple who lived together for a long time, and the wife convinced the husband that yes, they needed to marry, and the reason of being able to force people to recognize what he considered a firm and lifelong commitment was what finally won him over. (He had the “I don’t need a piece of paper to prove I’m staying around” excuse–neither of them is religious.) They are still very much married, 20 years later.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is something that, while we can offer some perspective, you will probably need to decide for yourselves as a couple.

My DH and I dated and were engaged long-distance. It is possible to do this and stay chaste, though I should also mention that we only had a 6-month-long engagement. Insofar as that goes, we used two common sense rules that we kind of created for ourselves:

–No overnights;

and

–No physical affection except in public. This meant that we could hold hands while out walking, give hello/goodbye hugs and kisses with the door open, that kind of thing, but once we were in either apartment, no physical contact. For us, this provided a pretty good balance between on the one hand learning how to use non-sexual physical affection (something that is really important in any marriage) while staying away from temptation. (We weren’t going to start making out while at dinner. )

We also kept busy while together–no sitting together on a couch for hours in an otherwise-empty apartment unless we were watching a movie, and then we kept space between us.

It was difficult sometimes, but certainly not impossible, and having a firm date set actually really helped: since we knew it was only X number of months/weeks/whatever until we were married, we knew we could wait that long. Being indefinitely engaged would have been much, much harder.

This is very prudent advice.

 

[EasterJoy]

I am borrowing money, as it is an expensive program at a prestigious school. But there are very good prospects for getting a good job with a decent salary. I want to be a good mom, and I hope that I will be able to stay home with my children at some point. But I was raised in a Catholic home, homeschooled, with seven children and my mom always seemed haggard and unfulfilled and embittered looking after us and being stuck at home. I think that had a lot to do with insecurities about my dad’s job and her own perfectionist pressures to be a perfect Catholic homeschool family. But she has insisted that I will regret not finishing my degree.

I also really love academic pursuits, and I think that I will want to go back to a fulfilling career when my children are grown (if I have any, God willing!)

A finance course is also a good idea. I will have to look into that!

I’ve known some women who were professors who seemed pretty haggard and wished they could stay home with their kids, too.

Still, I’d suggest you finish your schooling. You could marry right now, yes, but you have no guarantee that a) you’ll be able to get pregnant and b) that your husband will always be alive, well, and able to support the family. If you finish and then become a SAHM, you will be less prone to the grass-is-greener syndrome, because the option of going back to work will be there for you. Keep up your license/endorsement even if you choose to settle down as a stay-at-home mom. You will have the satisfaction of having completed your program, but more importantly you as a couple will have the extra security of knowing you are that more versatile when it comes to choosing how to support yourselves and your children. You and your husband may decide that your individual career is part of the joint life’s work that the two of you want to accomplish as a family–and always look at your “careers” in that light!–and that he wants to style his own work life to make that happen. These are choices you will have given yourself as a couple, if you finish your schooling, provided you don’t limit your choices by taking on an unreasonable amount of debt doing it.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve known some women who were professors who seemed pretty haggard and wished they could stay home with their kids, too.

Still, I’d suggest you finish your schooling. You could marry right now, yes, but you have no guarantee that a) you’ll be able to get pregnant and b) that your husband will always be alive, well, and able to support the family. If you finish and then become a SAHM, you will be less prone to the grass-is-greener syndrome, because the option of going back to work will be there for you. Keep up your license/endorsement even if you choose to settle down as a stay-at-home mom. You will have the satisfaction of having completed your program, but more importantly you as a couple will have the extra security of knowing you are that more versatile when it comes to choosing how to support yourselves and your children. You and your husband may decide that your individual career is part of the joint life’s work that the two of you want to accomplish as a family–and always look at your “careers” in that light!–and that he wants to style his own work life to make that happen. These are choices you will have given yourself as a couple, if you finish your schooling, provided you don’t limit your choices by taking on an unreasonable amount of debt doing it.

Yes. And “unreasonable amount of debt” is smaller than you might think while in school. It somehow feels bigger once you get out and start paying on it.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes. And “unreasonable amount of debt” is smaller than you might think while in school. It somehow feels bigger once you get out and start paying on it.

Yes. As one wag put it: Ten thousand here, ten thousand there, and before you know it, you’re talking about some real money!

It is prudent to consider educational loan repayment a) as a fraction of a somewhat below-average salary for someone in your field (since of course some graduates get a below-average salary instead of better); b) as a fraction of your cost of living in the areas you could make such a salary and c) the length of time you will be repaying the loan. If you intend to teach high school English, you cannot prudently take out the same loans you’d take out if you were planning on becoming a physician. Even in medicine or law, you’ll want to have a plan for what you will do if you end up in a less-lucrative specialty or a different area of the country than you had hoped. If you want to be a stay-at-home parent some day or hope to buy a house for your growing brood, realize that getting your student loans repaid may keep you in the salaried work force or out of that home of your own longer than you had hoped.

It is very much worth researching these things before taking on such a huge financial investment. “I’m worth it” may be true, but that is only if you remember that it is not a simple choice between bettering yourself and not bettering yourself. You are buying one form of self-betterment at the expense of other future financial options. If you take on an imprudent level of debt, you may find your options very bleak, indeed! Sometimes, though, you will be taking on debt that will repay you many times over, sometimes even in the financial sense.

Know what you’re buying and what buying power you are giving up in exchange, what options you are opening and which you are closing as a consequence, I guess that is my caution.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes. As one wag put it: Ten thousand here, ten thousand there, and before you know it, you’re talking about some real money!

It is prudent to consider educational loan repayment a) as a fraction of a somewhat below-average salary for someone in your field (since of course some graduates get a below-average salary instead of better); b) as a fraction of your cost of living in the areas you could make such a salary and c) the length of time you will be repaying the loan. If you intend to teach high school English, you cannot prudently take out the same loans you’d take out if you were planning on becoming a physician. Even in medicine or law, you’ll want to have a plan for what you will do if you end up in a less-lucrative specialty or a different area of the country than you had hoped. If you want to be a stay-at-home parent some day or hope to buy a house for your growing brood, realize that getting your student loans repaid may keep you in the salaried work force or out of that home of your own longer than you had hoped.

It is very much worth researching these things before taking on such a huge financial investment. “I’m worth it” may be true, but that is only if you remember that it is not a simple choice between bettering yourself and not bettering yourself. You are buying one form of self-betterment at the expense of other future financial options. If you take on an imprudent level of debt, you may find your options very bleak, indeed! Sometimes, though, you will be taking on debt that will repay you many times over, sometimes even in the financial sense.

Know what you’re buying and what buying power you are giving up in exchange, what options you are opening and which you are closing as a consequence, I guess that is my caution.

Yes. I would suggest borrowing no more than one year total of expected future salary, and even that might mean considerable sacrifice to pay off if you are still paying it off when you have children. If you do go forward with the degree, please try to pay it off as aggressively as possible while childless.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes. I would suggest borrowing no more than one year total of expected future salary, and even that might mean considerable sacrifice to pay off if you are still paying it off when you have children. If you do go forward with the degree, please try to pay it off as aggressively as possible while childless.

In my experience, the main thing is to hold off on living the “higher standard of living” you expect from the more lucrative job, and instead live as if you make much less than you do once you make it. I cannot tell you how many people I know who have accepted job offers for a good salary and then maxed their credit cards in anticipation of making it, before they actually earned a dollar of it! I have also seen medical students and medical residents driving cars that were newer and more expensive than the cars being driven by their medical teachers! The people with their student loans paid off were living sensibly, knowing by that time that they had a retirement to fund, and the people laden down with debt were still living in a dream world where their earning potential was limitless and already a sure thing!

Live according to the means you have now, the debt you have to pay taken into account, and not according to the salary you hope you will someday earn. Repay faster than you are bound to repay by the terms of your loan, instead. Financial freedom is a real freedom, a vastly under-appreciated freedom, but you can only have it by exercising self-control.