Long Term Effects Of Protestantism

[Anima_Christi]

maesoph:

Dear All:

Protetantism has been around long enough and in enough places for somebody somewhere to have done a study and determine what the long term effects of Protestantism are to a society. Does anyone know if this has been done yet??? To me, it doesn’t look all that good in the long term - but I just might be biased. Would be interesting to get an official opinion from a secular historian or socialogist or whoever does these types of things… Any one know of any information of this type???

Maesoph,
to learn about the long-term effects of Protestantism on society, you may want to look into the writings of Hillaire Belloc, such as The Great Heresies.

 

[Kendy]

Sherlock:

cont.
There’s a HUGE difference, Kendy. The teaching of the Catholic Church is a standard by which one’s adherence to Catholicism can be objectively measured. Those who disagree with Church doctrines are what they are: dissidents at worst, heterodox at best. They aren’t practicing Catholics, and so their positions can be judged against Church teaching. That is why it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans what any poll says. Protestantism is VERY different: since you’re all claiming the Bible as authority (and of course, the Holy Spirit is usually invoked), there is no standard by which you can say any other Protestant doctrine or sect is wrong—they’re all equal, since they’re all claiming the same authority. You may think that you’re “safe” in your particular church, but there’s no guarantee that a new pastor might come in and eventually you might vote for actively gay clergy—just like the Episcopalians did, and the Lutherans are doing. Polls do matter for a Protestant, because there’s no guarantee that they won’t determine “doctrine”.Nice try, Kendy, but it’s simply not a comparable situation. There is no real relativism within Catholicism, only those who follow the Christ’s Church and those who don’t. Those heterodox, dissenting Catholics are NOT on an “equal footing” with those who are practicing Catholics. Within Protestantism, all you can say is, “Well, I have my truth, and they have theirs”.

I would hope that the church would not be satisfied that the clergy are in agreement with what the truth. It’s an important first step, but it must impact that lives of the laity. I can honestly most of thr committed catholics I know I have met on the internet.

As for what will my denomination do, I can only pray that God will give us the wisdom to not elect a gay clergy member. I see no evidence right now that we would consider such a thing. Our moral values are pretty comprable to the RCC. Maybe, if they did, I might decide to give in and catholic and pray that they would never do such a thing.

Again, you illustrate the dangers of basing one’s faith on mere humans. People let you down; therefore there must not be “truth” there. This is no way to discover truth—Truth is ultimately a Somebody, not a something, and you can’t vote on that or decide what it is based on looking and judging all of those around you. I just don’t understand the logic of looking at the lukewarm of a faith instead of the winners.

I wouldn’t dream on taking truth to the voting booth.

Which means that Truth is being decided on the basis of the attractiveness of the messengers. I take your point, but in the end rotten Catholics simply provide an excuse for Protestants who want to remain Protestant to remain Protestant. Those who are interested in objective Truth will pursue it (Him) no matter where it takes them, and the Catholic Church is happy to receive them when they come home.

Well, the article was about very catholic things that catholics often ignore, which does make catholicism unattractive to evangelicals. This is not as nefarious as you make it sound. The bible does say that you will know them by their fruits. I will go back to the church if that’s where God leads me.

Now, as for wanting to remain protestant. What evil reasons could I or any one else have for wanting to remain protestant? Ok, I will admit, I find catholic services rather dull and this is not a good reason, but that’s not why I am protestant. I became protestant because I was not persuaded by some of the church’s teachings. And because I didn’t really see Jesus in the people around me. And as a new believer, who had a lot of questions and wanted a little support, I wanted to be around appeared committed to their Christian faith. I have been fortunate in that I found that in the churches I have since attended.

Kendy

Kendy

 

[Anima_Christi]

maesoph:

Dear All:

Protetantism has been around long enough and in enough places for somebody somewhere to have done a study and determine what the long term effects of Protestantism are to a society. Does anyone know if this has been done yet??? To me, it doesn’t look all that good in the long term - but I just might be biased. Would be interesting to get an official opinion from a secular historian or socialogist or whoever does these types of things… Any one know of any information of this type???

Maesoph,
to learn about the long-term effects of Protestantism on society, you may want to look into the writings of Hillaire Belloc, such as The Great Heresies.

 

[Montie_Claunch]

One poster had mentioned how the Protestants influenced the world positivly with the Industrial Revolution. I have been reading the Book How the Catholic Church Buildt Weastern Civilization by Thomas E. Woods, Jr., Ph.D. and as it turns out, that the world was about to actually go under an industrial revolution till King Henry prevented it. “Had it not been for a greedy king’s (Henry VIII) suppression of the English monasteries, therefore, the monks appear to have been on the verge of ushering in the industrial era and its related explosion in wealth, population, and life expectancy figures. That development would instead have to wait two and a half more centuries.” (pps. 37-8). I would strongly suggest this book to eavryone looking into the affects of Catholicism on the world (it’s a great read. I loved it). I know it isn’t what was asked but, I can’t help but, interveine on that issue.

 

[Beeline]

Kendy:

Oh, can we please (speaking to both sides) stop this mudsling? It’s neither productive nor Christlike.
Kendy

??? not actually on topic, nor an accurate observation??

More on the subject, you who have pointed to relativism, I’d have to agree.

What other country than the U.S, a protestant country, and the founder of so many Fundamentalist
denominations that hardly exist outside the U.S., is more an incubator or case study of such a phenomena, and all of Western Civilization is present here in its most current and pervasive form.

Of course I’m not speaking from anything I’ve read just from some quick observations.
Look at our ‘Catholic’ politicians and the moral compromises they’ve had to make.
I hardly know of any national Catholic politicians that
dont severly compromise on Catholic teachings.

I’m talking the Kennedy types and the Kerry’s. They are opposed
to legislating morality and their personal beliefs
especially when it comes to abortion but they do it
all day on other matters.

Protestants as a group disagree on many Biblical
items and matters of authority and morals. In fact so
much disagreement exists that they have to conclude that many of these matters are not important. ~Relativism.

Others seek Protestant churches that conform to their ideals and lifestyle. From a basic
fundamentalist read, (i.e. Dr. Walter Martin) the bible contains no prohibitions against abortion.
Divorce is okay, if the other person is bad enough
or if you’ve grown apart. Many of these Protestant
churches support and perform Church wedding for 2nd or multiple marriages – no questions asked.

And of course relativism in a more personal tone towards us Catholics, exists as other Sola Scriptura
Christians are ‘Christian’ but Catholics are not.

Relativism is inherent in Protestanism, where if you
dont agree with the teaching of your church you go
seek another for theological reasons, lifestyle reasons, or to find a church that agrees with your own peculiar thoughts and individualism.

 

[Beeline]

gusano:

I have done a study and one thing I have found is
"The fear of sola scriptura" in society and in Catholic society specifically.

The Catholic Church is based on Scripture and Tradition, in other words,
God gave us a body with (2) legs, yet many Catholics own a bible but seldom or never read it… Why?
a.) fear of mal-interpretation
b.) fear of sola scriptura
c.) fear of mental struggle

the result is that some fall into the “Tradition only” mentyality, (or “sola tradicia”)
Living by either “sola scriptura” or “sola tradicia” alone is like walking on one leg only, to avoid the other.
Protestants live by scripture alone, and some catholics live by tradition alone, both are crippled.

Jesus hits the nail on the head as he says to the sadducees:
"You err because you know neither the scripturs nor the power of God."

some Catholics are fearful of Scripture,
Protestants are fearful of Tradition.
But Jesus says "Fear is useless, what is needed is Faith."

Happy New Year !

gusano

Very insightful, but how does this apply to the illiterate Peasant societes of the middle ages and beyond and even today.

There is still a teaching reliance on a Church based
upon your literacy level , your laziness level, or your
curiosity for knowledge. Most people pick a Church
and then get fed like Birds on predigested material
whether your a Catholic, a ‘Sola Scriptura’ JW, or anything else.

 

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

Yes, the enlightment brought is atheism, but it also brought us science (greater health and longer lifespan).

Science has ben around far longer than the Enlightenment, and was furthered by the universities. You need to study your history a bit deeper.

Kendy:

And yes the industrial revolution was depersonalizing, but it brought modern conveniences, which have given people more time to enjoy their longer lives. Since we are passing reading lists around, how about you check Thomas Sowell, F.A. Hayek, and Milton Friedman on how all of us have benefitted from industrialization and captialism. As for our legal system, we owe a great debt to those Greek and Roman pagans, and to the enlightenment philosophers, John Locke, being one of my personal favorites.

You’re arguing against a position I never held. I happen to like capitalism too, or rather aspects of the mixed variety of it that we have now (Ayn Rand’s “pure” capitalism, on the other hand, is an abomination). I simply said that the industrial revolution was a mixed bag.

Kendy:

But more importantly, if you prefer to believe that catholicism has brought the world nothing but good including the crusades (and while we are at it the Magdelene Houses of Ireland) , knock yourself out. I don’t really have an interest in disrespecting the catholic church.

I’m glad to hear it. However, I’m not ever going to say that all Catholics have been good Catholics, and the Church is made up of sinners. So of course it’s not perfect, because her members are not perfect. But she is the Christ’s Church, and so I will say that Catholicism IS nothing but good, because of He who founded it. Individual Catholics, on the other hand…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

maesoph:

Dear All:

Protetantism has been around long enough and in enough places for somebody somewhere to have done a study and determine what the long term effects of Protestantism are to a society. Does anyone know if this has been done yet???

There was a book in the seventies comparing the experience & sociology of Catholics, Protestants & Jews in the USA. But that’s all I can think of at the moment. Sorry.​

Though you might find that James Hitchcock has written something of the kind - if in doubt, consult a bibliography in a book which deals, however generally, with the kind of thing you want to know about. ##

To me, it doesn’t look all that good in the long term - but I just might be biased. Would be interesting to get an official opinion from a secular historian or socialogist or whoever does these types of things… Any one know of any information of this type???

Purely as a matter of method, it is difficult to study any phenomenon in society which has been around for a long time with complete confidence that one is not at times studying something else; because phenomena enter into all sorts of relations with other phenomena, so that it is not always clear what has brought about a given effect - such as (say) improvements in wages for workers. How much of that is caused by Protestantism, how much by some other form of Christianity, how much owes little or nothing to Christianity ?​

Besides, to study Protestantism’s effects, one needs to know about a great deal more than Protestantism.

It is quite possible that the Church owes a good deal of what is healthy in it at the present time, and in much of its past, to Protestantism. Why not ? - the two have long influenced each other, if only by repulsion; but, in fact, not only by repulsion. Needless to say, it is equally possible that Protestantism is indebted to Catholicism in the same way; and neither has been uninfluenced by Orthodoxy.

One thing the study of history is not, is straightfoward - which is why Christians can see the same data, yet draw conflicting conclusions; and why the same one can do so even two days in succession. ##

 

[gusano]

Beeline:

Very insightful, but how does this apply to the illiterate Peasant societes of the middle ages and beyond and even today.

Same as it applies to all the rest of us;
" Faith comes through hearing , and what is heard is the word of Christ.",
…we do not have to be literate to have the True Faith, since it comes by hearing. in this case it is much more profitable to HEAR than to read.
Reading is good but it is the printed word, not The Living Word.
That is why
"…it pleased God to save those who believe through the absurdity of the preaching of the Gospel."

There is still a teaching reliance on a Church based
upon your literacy level , your laziness level, or your
curiosity for knowledge. Most people** pick** a Church
and then get** fed like Birds on predigested material**
whether your a Catholic, a ‘Sola Scriptura’ JW, or anything else.

That is not so bad !
That is how God designed us.
From infancy God picked my mother for me, and me for my mother.
As we get older, if we are wise enough to ** “pick”** what God has already picked for us in advance, there is a powerful blessing that continues with that choice.
God wants to FEED US from conception til death, if we will allow him, on material He has predigested, for our safe Journey.
His method of FEEDING US is
"One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism.",…
the Feeding has many levels, hence the gift of Curiousity to “Rouse ourselves”.

If you doubt this read Matt.11: 25-30 … chew it gently, don’t gulp it down .

Have a Spirit Filled New Year

gusano