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Teneas
Guest
Of course I don’t mind.
- Status
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Lapey
Guest
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Lutheranteach
Guest
Wow. What an insulting thing to say. Methodist, Lutherans, United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, and Episcopalians all believe in a real presence. Many of us spend an hour in Bible study on Sunday morning and then spend an hour in church and then spend an hour afterward (maybe that last hour is the fun and social hour) but mostly its about talking through some church business. What shut-ins could use a visit? Who do we need to keep in thoughts and prayers the upcoming week? Who can help take down the Christmas decorations? How much more do we need to collect for the Angel Food program? Who has a mini-van and is willing to help drive the youth choir to the assisted living home to do a concert? And many other details.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
That’s not accurate. A tiny percentage of the members of these Churches believe in the real presence of Christ in the eucharist.
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Justin_Mee
Guest
I was a Protestant for many decades. Drums, saxs, steel guitars, bass guitar, trumpets lined up across the stage in hoedown fashion while words to jumpy “new” Christian songs flashed across the giant screen. The preacher in jeans and golf shirt most of the time could use a shave. I don’t regret my experience because it certainly helped lead me “home.” I did not know what the real worship of God felt like in my heart until I experienced my first Mass. This is MY experience and other Protestant faith-based groups may be different. For the first time in my life, I feel at peace with God and confident in the direction I am heading. I have been to Methodist churches and know you are not correct in their belief in the real presence. See the following:
Communion: Methodists generally believe that Christ is present in a spiritual form in communion and not in a bodily form also. The United Methodist Church’s The Discipline of The Evangelical United Brethren Church confession says “We believe the Lord’s Supper is a representation of our redemption, a memorial of the sufferings and death of Christ, and a token of love and union which Christians have with Christ and with one another. Those who rightly, worthily and in faith eat the broken bread and drink the blessed cup partake of the body and blood of Christ in a spiritual manner until he comes.” – Article VI
saintaquinas.com/
I suspect the others you cite are similar in their beliefs on this. I’m sorry that you feel insulted but I’ve “been there and done that.”
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Monte1945
Guest
Every christian is called to love everyone but not their sin…
It was for these same sinners that Jesus came to die for.
And we are not suppose to judge… That is God’s business…
Of course the sins of these priests or of any man/woman terrible
and a scandle to any church… such as Jimmy Swaggard and
Rev. Baker etc… even the least of the sin is as much as the greatest.
But what of these sinners? and these Bishops who attempted
to help them to grow out from their sin by hiding it from the authorities.
What are we to do with them?
As long as a man saids he repents and asks for forgiveness… we have
to offer him God’s forgiveness as the scriptures instruct us too.
My personal opinion is if these sins were known by any member of the
church then they should have been turned over to the law and let man’s justice
attempt to keep them from other innocent victims…
And the heads of the chruch who hid them should have been put in a position
where they could not work in that way again… taken to the law for abetting
those civil crimes. etc…
No christian will ever form himself perfectly into the image of Christ though we are called too. " be ye perfect as your father is in heaven" Jesus said.
But then St. Paul seems to have fallen short all of his life…
Romans 7 “oh wretched man that I am”…
No one can ever know what lies in the heart of anyone… Any man can say he
was called by God, and enter the priesthood… Only God knows what is in his
heart… and until his fruits are shown no one can know…
I understand that some of these Bishops hid the crimes from the public
and that is very wrong… and they will have to stand under judgement for
that. But they too can repent and their sins be as white as snow…
I have to agree with that man… who said, as the man was being taken to his execution walked pass him:
“There except for the Grace of God, go I”
don’t forget for one second that the devil is very slick and can work wonders within
the church as well as outside it…
don’t forget that Jesus said… "many will come to me, saying I do all these things in your name and he will say… “get away from me I never knew you”…
There is two courts for us… one in this world… and one over yonder… if one does not
get caught in this world one will most certainly have all their sins laid to bare in the other…
and true justice will be done…
Just some thoughts to consider…
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Carlan
Guest
Oh yes! Let us not kid ourselves, presumption can be a deadly sin.
Carlan
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Hiskid1973
Guest
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.Oh yes! Let us not kid ourselves, presumption can be a deadly sin.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Good points, Justin. What I observed (and was disturbed by deeply!) as a former Anglican was how easily Anglicans, Methodists, Unitarians, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc. all “float” between each other so easily. I think the vast majority do not know what the Eucharist is or at best think it’s all the same. The Anglican view of the real presence is so calvinistic that an Anglican can shuffle to a Methodist or Reformed Church and feel it’s just a change of liturgy or music or style. I wish I had a dime for every Presbyterian who went Baptist for a while or Lutheran who went Methodist or non-denom that I know. They shuffle to and fro as if they’re the same. When I was Anglican I felt I was a catholic (small “c”) and the Eucharist was the body and blood of Christ Himself. I quickly found that there were a zillion different views on the matter and the Eucharist’s validity didn’t matter much to parishoners. So taking communion for them at another denomination wasn’t a biggie. I work with a Lutheran who said she was thinking of going to a Nazarene church to get her irreligious husband (now ex husband) motivated because they had better music and they were more zealous and “fun.” If she is a LCMS Lutheran, shouldn’t the real presence be a core belief for her? I work with a guy who left the Methodist Church and is going to a non-denom because they “have a better youth group for my daughters, better sports too.” HUH? My wife’s friend is Lutheran but goes to the “Neighborhood Church” (non denom feel-good special)…and as an Anglican for years, there were people from all walks of Protestantism there who floated in and out along with a small group of angry former Catholics who didn’t get their way and wanted the frosting with no cake under it. You are correct about Protestant views of the Eucharist…they are vague, myriad, and often baffling. None have the true Catholic view. And feel-good, easy, hallelujah koombaya praise bands are certainly en vogue. Christianity for many is:
how easy is it for me?
how fun is it for me?
there isn’t any dogma in it is there?
Good youth group and soccer team?
fun for the kiddos?
not rigid and demanding like those pesky Catholicos!
I remember visiting a Lutheran parish one time and hearing a bass guitar and loud rock drums, my wife and I up and left in a NY minute!! Hard to believe people consider that silliness a “church.”
how easy is it for me?
how fun is it for me?
there isn’t any dogma in it is there?
Good youth group and soccer team?
fun for the kiddos?
not rigid and demanding like those pesky Catholicos!
I remember visiting a Lutheran parish one time and hearing a bass guitar and loud rock drums, my wife and I up and left in a NY minute!! Hard to believe people consider that silliness a “church.”
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Carlan
Guest
So right you are, It really isn’t about worship, As Apostolic Christians our Christian worship is centered around the Eucharist, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Carlan
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Amen, Carlan. And it took a few trips back to the Anglican Church for me to “get it”…amazing where our egos and selfish pride can take us…
So right you are, It really isn’t about worship, As Apostolic Christians our Christian worship is centered around the Eucharist, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Lutheranteach
Guest
Here are some of those denominations’ teachings:
United Methodist Church (The Great Mystery)
The Presence of Christ
Jesus Christ, who “is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being” (Hebrews 1:3), is truly present in Holy Communion. Through Jesus Christ and in the power of the Holy Spirit, God meets us at the Table. God, who has given the sacraments to the church, acts in and through Holy Communion. Christ is present through the community gathered in Jesus’ name (Matthew 18:20), through the Word proclaimed and enacted, and through the elements of bread and wine shared (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). The divine presence is a living reality and can be experienced by participants; it is not a remembrance of the Last Supper and the Crucifixion only.
ELCA/ LCMS (In with and under…)
The Sacramental Union
Lutherans believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are “truly and substantially present in, with and under the forms” of the consecrated bread and wine (the elements), so that communicants eat and drink both the elements and the true Body and Blood of Christ Himself (cf. The Lutheran doctrine of the Real Presence is more accurately and formally known as “the Sacramental Union.” For Lutherans, there is no sacrament unless the elements are used according to Christ’s institution (consecration, distribution, and reception). Lutherans use the terms “in, with and under the forms of consecrated bread and wine” and “Sacramental Union” to distinguish their understanding of the Lord’s Supper from those of the Reformed and other traditions.
Presbyterian (Pneumatic Presence)
This, then, is the Presbyterian understanding of Communion: Is Jesus physically present in the elements of the Eucharist–have the molecules of bread been changed into molecules of the body of Jesus? No. Is Jesus spiritually present in the elements of the Eucharist, authentically present in the non-atom-based substance with which he is con-substantial with God–that is, is he genuinely there to be received by us, and not just in our memories? Yes.
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Elizabeth1558
Guest
To the OP, Protestant faiths are not “simpler”, they are different. Any religion you find yourself belonging to will test you from time to time; it is not supposed to be easy or simple. You should take a lot of time to seriously consider making any change in religion. If you feel your heart is leading you to another church that should be something to explore. However, if you do not feel strongly about this I would suggest staying in your church and speaking with a priest about your concerns. Perhaps speaking with a priest before making any decisions would be the best move. I have not read the entire thread so my apologies if this is redundant.
I’m not exactly sure what is wrong with the idea of attending a church which is of a different denomination from time to time. I’m fairly certain no one who attends different churches thinks they are all carbon copies of one another. Also, I do not know what the issue could be with a change in music. Although this is not something I have ever encountered so perhaps it is not as joyful (we’ll say) as I am envisioning. There is something very somber and beautiful about organ music but if something needs to change with the times music should be the least of our concerns.
I would like to say that I believe this discussion seems to have taken a very ugly turn. I am disheartened by the number of hateful comments being posted regarding Protestant denominations. I just don’t see how in this day and age we cannot agree to disagree and love each other as Christians. While there is nothing wrong with discussing our differences I don’t see why it has to turn so hateful. I have run across some threads with titles which are something like “Why do people hate Catholics”. There seems to be a serious disconnect between the perceived hatred of Cathoicism and the clear hatred of Protestantism by some on these boards. Why would it be okay for one and not the other? There should be no free license to hate or attack anyone for their religious beliefs. Why is it so difficult for some of us to respect one another?
I’m not exactly sure what is wrong with the idea of attending a church which is of a different denomination from time to time. I’m fairly certain no one who attends different churches thinks they are all carbon copies of one another. Also, I do not know what the issue could be with a change in music. Although this is not something I have ever encountered so perhaps it is not as joyful (we’ll say) as I am envisioning. There is something very somber and beautiful about organ music but if something needs to change with the times music should be the least of our concerns.
I would like to say that I believe this discussion seems to have taken a very ugly turn. I am disheartened by the number of hateful comments being posted regarding Protestant denominations. I just don’t see how in this day and age we cannot agree to disagree and love each other as Christians. While there is nothing wrong with discussing our differences I don’t see why it has to turn so hateful. I have run across some threads with titles which are something like “Why do people hate Catholics”. There seems to be a serious disconnect between the perceived hatred of Cathoicism and the clear hatred of Protestantism by some on these boards. Why would it be okay for one and not the other? There should be no free license to hate or attack anyone for their religious beliefs. Why is it so difficult for some of us to respect one another?
J
Justin_Mee
Guest
I only have my experience in the Protestant church to refer. It is my opinion that 80% of my Protestant service was for the congregation and 20% for the worship of God. When I was standing and clapping to a jumpy song while trying to keep up with the words going by on a big screen, I was not thinking of Him; I was thinking of the musical instrument sounds and keeping up with the words Maybe it was just me, but I found it impossible to see His face or feel His touch. I have no such problem in my CC. I experience Him when I walk through the door. People are praying in silence as compared to the socializing in my Protestant church right up to the time that the music starts. When I dip my finger in the Holy Water and feel the splash on my forehead, socializing stops and the worship of my God begins. Yes, Father is sort of mono toned and the lone piano could use a tuneup. But, there is no doubt who is present and why I’m there. If I feel the desire to be entertained, I will take in a movie later. BTW, the first time in my life that I’ve had a prayer answered (at least so quickly) was to Our Lady for her intersession with her Son. I had a severe problem I needed help with and it was answered immediately through the Rosary. Very awesome feeling when that happens.
So right you are, It really isn’t about worship, As Apostolic Christians our Christian worship is centered around the Eucharist, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Answersplease
Guest
The proudest will be the last,
and the most humble shall be the first.
The most humble (priest or not) will be the greatest.
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Lib_Christian
Guest
Lapey, thanks for judging my understanding, level of ignorance, my rottenness and abominations. If hurtful, personal attacks are meant to draw people closer to Christ, I hope someday you will understand how they can actually push people away. But if your mission is a smaller Church, then good work I guess.
I fully know what you believe infallibility means. I just don’t believe Christ would have as a leader someone who He knows ahead of time is going to commit such henious and horrific crimes against children. If you do, that’s fine. I don’t.
I believe we the flock can know false shepherd leaders by their fruit. If you don’t, that’s fine. My definition for a holy person in church leadership may be different than yours. That’s fine. But no I do not believe all of these bishops are holy and believe they need reproved. I am not holier than thou but I am not in a position of church leadership.
You look into text to prove what you have been taught just as I. But I also study Scripture as I pray for the Holy Spirit to guide me to understanding.
You believe Jesus was speaking only to the apostles of the times about fruits. That’s fine if that’s what you believe. I believe all of Scripture was meant for generations to come. For the flock as well as the apostles.
I know some fellow believers think they hold all truth absolutely. A lot of conservative churches believe that and back up their beliefs with Scripture. The Catholic Church is not alone in thinking that. I am not fully convinced however humans can fully understand God’s truth in it’s entirety on earth. It’s called faith.
Peace.
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Lib_Christian
Guest
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Lib_Christian
Guest
I am not judging anyone’s salvation. And I believe they can be forgiven. That doesn’t mean they should be considered leaders of the flock. But that’s my belief.
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Lib_Christian
Guest
Yes and when the Apostles were arguing who the greatest was among themselves, Jesus told them.
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Lib_Christian
Guest
There are Catholic churches using bass guitar and drums. A parish I attend has screens. And in warm climates you can find Catholics wearing shorts. I doubt God really cares what a person wears. It’s more likely what’s on the inside that counts. Just IMHO.- Status