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Topper17
Guest
Hi Mary,
What kind of surprises me though is that we have not seen any warnings from the moderators about how it should be, as you say, about the ‘topic not the poster’. It does seem to me though that some people would MUCH rather have ME be the subject of discussion than the actual subject at hand, which BTW is Martin Luther.
God Bless You Mary, Topper
This is all quite predicable, but I do have to say that the blatant disregard for the rules here is still rather ‘transparent’ in it’s ‘intent’.
What kind of surprises me though is that we have not seen any warnings from the moderators about how it should be, as you say, about the ‘topic not the poster’. It does seem to me though that some people would MUCH rather have ME be the subject of discussion than the actual subject at hand, which BTW is Martin Luther.
For the record, I would like to get ‘an interpretation’ of what, specifically and exactly of course, was meant here by the term ‘intentionally misrepresent’.
What I think is interesting about this is how transparent it all is, even if it is entirely predicable.
God Bless You Mary, Topper
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
The topic please
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Topper17
Guest
Hi Eric,
Thank You and God Bless You Eric, Topper
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powerofk
Guest
Luther didn’t cause others to revolt. However, Luther’s success in revolting allowed others with divergent beliefs to be emboldened. These “reformers” (Calvin, Zwigli, and others) probably would not have dared to publish their ideas had Luther not been successful in publishing and dispersing his ideas and had been moderately successful in doing so. Honestly, though, there were primarily two reasons any of the “reformers” were successful in convincing people to follow them.
Number 1: the new-at-the-time invention of Gutenberg’s printing press (which, btw, is also the invention that made our new democratic-style (either republican or constitutional monarchy-style) governments possible). The printing press made large-scale publication easy. Before the printing press, ideas were passed along by word of mouth or by hand-written note. Books had to be copied by hand. This made the flow of ideas travel much slower. As such, the Church was more able to stop the spread of heterodox ideas. Remember, there were heterodox groups in England well before the Reformation, but due to much slower communication, the groups never grew very large.
Number 2: Northern European kings and princes (especially in what is today Germany, the Netherlands, the Scandinavian countries and Great Britain) seeing that making another version of Christianity official would allow them to reclaim Church property. For centuries, northern European kings and princes had been wanting to reclaim Church property as their own. But, as it belonged to the Church, it would have been scandalous for them to have done so. When the Protestant denominations came along, the Northern European kings made the new Protestant denominations the only legal version of Christianity in their respective kingdoms, and as such were able to confiscate all property belonging to the Catholic Church.
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Isaiah45_9
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pablope
Guest
Well…who do you think came up with Sola Scriptura?
It starts there…does it not?
crisismagazine.com/2012/what-the-reformation-has-wrought
The Protestants, preaching sola scriptura, threw much of it away. The Protestants believed that the deposit and structure of Catholic faith were fundamentally flawed, that Christ no longer abided in the Roman Church, and that Scripture alone communicated God’s will. Sola scriptura changed everything for Western Christendom. The Church became the churches, and the process inadvertently, but relentlessly, fueled individual sovereignty and relativism.
The Reformers’ stress on sola scriptura sought to close the gap between Christian preaching and practice. But it failed at that, while opening a Pandora’s Box of new problems. Competing interpretations of Scripture actually intensified the confusion. Lutherans read Scripture one way, Calvinists another, with varieties of Anglicans, Anabaptists, Baptists, Puritans, Pietists, Methodists, and Quakers veering off into options beyond counting.
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spina1953
Guest
Hi Jon: Luther was not the only one of the Reformation who revolted against the CC as history has so far shown . That being said in answer to your question how did Luther cause others to revolt? It seems to me that Luther’s revolt against the CC opened the door so to speak for others to revolt against the CC. They felt that seeing Luther being successful and having the backing of many of the princes in his endeavor to continue with his teaching, theology and interpretation of Scripture against what the CC taught, other felt that they too could also break away from the CC with their own doctrines and teachings and interpretations of Scripture they believed to be in line with their thinking.
Even if Luther had not revolted against the CC the era was ripe for dissention of those who felt that the teachings and doctrines of the CC no longer applied to them, and part of the reason is due to the rise of nationalistic identity, and their own cultural traditions. Many had the backing of their princes of the regions they controlled seeing it as a way to break whatever power they thought the CC had. Many had differing idea's of what they thought Scripture meant and said and developed doctrines and theologies basing it on their own interpretations of Scripture. Many added to what they understood of many of Luther's writings and teachings, or changed them to suit their own theology, making new doctrines. Luther as history shows also attributes Luther as the Father of the Reformation leading to new ways of thinking different from what had been taught and understood, thereby causing others to rethink what they had been taught, and developing new doctrines and teachings.
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spina1953
Guest
Hi Pablope: I do have to agree with your statement you posted and the link your provided.
That is the real problem Luther caused when he decided that sola scriptura as a bases for interpreting Scripture whereas it cause a influx of interpretations and doctrines based on their interpretations each different from others who interpreted Scripture. If Luther could so why not others? Now each could interpret Scripture and say that theirs is correct and others were wrong and who’s to know which one is the correct one to believe? Not just confusion but chaos in that anyone can say Scripture say this or that or means this or that and who is to say, but only now each has the self-proclaimed authority to decide how to interpret Scripture and decides what it means and says.
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Topper17
Guest
Hi hn,
Thanks for your response.
Again, what do you think the Catholic Church should have done when Luther denied those ‘other four.’ Do you think that the Catholic Church should have ‘negotiated’ with Luther as to the number of Sacrament? If so, what should the Church have done, specifically?
God Bless You hn, Topper
Thanks for your response.
I am aware of the Lutheran position on the number of Sacraments, and ‘why’ those ‘other four’ are not Sacraments. But that understanding does not answer my question.
Again, what do you think the Catholic Church should have done when Luther denied those ‘other four.’ Do you think that the Catholic Church should have ‘negotiated’ with Luther as to the number of Sacrament? If so, what should the Church have done, specifically?
God Bless You hn, Topper
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Topper17
Guest
Hi hn,
You say that “Confessional Lutherans” will never cave in on matters of doctrine. I have seen statements to that effect from LCMS leadership, indicating that the Catholic Church will have to give in if there is going to be doctrinal unity.
What I don’t know though is what percentage of Lutherans are considered ‘Confessional’, and what percentage are considered (by the one who consider themselves to be Confessional) to be NOT “Confessional”. If my question seems confused, it might be because the situation itself doesn’t seem to make sense.
I guess I am really asking about how many ‘real Lutherans’ there are, meaning the ones that actually do hold to the Confessions. From the outside looking in, it certainly seems to be a really small slice of Christianity overall.
If Lutheranism is supposed to ALL be ‘Confessional’, and if the Confessions are supposed to protect Lutheran unity, then why is Lutheranism now broken up into so many doctrinally conflicting communions?
God Bless You hn, Topper
I have to admit that I need a scorecard here and that I have a lot of problems keeping track of which Lutherans are right and which Lutherans “are wrong”, according of course to the first (and right) group of Lutherans.
You say that “Confessional Lutherans” will never cave in on matters of doctrine. I have seen statements to that effect from LCMS leadership, indicating that the Catholic Church will have to give in if there is going to be doctrinal unity.
What I don’t know though is what percentage of Lutherans are considered ‘Confessional’, and what percentage are considered (by the one who consider themselves to be Confessional) to be NOT “Confessional”. If my question seems confused, it might be because the situation itself doesn’t seem to make sense.
I guess I am really asking about how many ‘real Lutherans’ there are, meaning the ones that actually do hold to the Confessions. From the outside looking in, it certainly seems to be a really small slice of Christianity overall.
If Lutheranism is supposed to ALL be ‘Confessional’, and if the Confessions are supposed to protect Lutheran unity, then why is Lutheranism now broken up into so many doctrinally conflicting communions?
God Bless You hn, Topper
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Randy_Carson
Guest
My own opinion is that there is only one body of Christ, and that body began calling itself the Catholic Church as early as the end of the first century - middle of the second at the latest according to Protestant scholar J.N.D. Kelly.
Since anyone who is baptized has at least an imperfect communion with that Church, anyone who is a Christian AT ALL is technically a Catholic since that is the only Church.
Orthodox, Lutherans, Pentecostals…whatever. They are all Catholics because they are members of the one body of Christ.
Try telling that to them, however…
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Randy_Carson
Guest
So, Lutherans go out of their way to be nice to the Jews, but heaven forbid anything like that should be granted to your brothers and sisters in Christ, the Catholics.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
By setting an example that emboldened others to act similarly?
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benjohnson
Guest
Of you don’t accept the consolatory writings of Lutherans and hold us to the hardest reading of our Confessions, then you’re right to say this. But you would also have to hold to the hardest reading of Unam Sanctam.
You really can’t have it both ways - either you acknowledge that both of our communions have hold each other as brothers in Christ and cherish each other as adopted children of God or that Lutherans hold that the Pope is the true Anti-Christ, and that Catholics hold that Lutherans are destined for Hell.
Or at least that’s how logically it would seem. That LCMS Lutherans have cordial and respectful relations with the Vatican should indicate how LCMS Lutherans view your communion.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Actually, I haven’t seen these writings…where are they found and what do they say?
As was pointed out by another poster, the Anglicans scrubbed the Westminster Confession back in 1933. Hello?
Would that be understood as your destiny if the Catholic Church has clarified the meaning of Unam Sanctam? What advantage is there in claiming that the document says something that the Church has infallibly stated it does not say?
The bottom line is that Lutherans might be offended by Unam Sanctam if they do not understand it properly. Okay, we can fix that by providing an explanation.
However, if Catholics are offended by Article 43, can that be fixed? Apparently not.
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CommonWeal
Guest
According to Hilaire Belloc in the Servile State, the Reformation caused the reintroduction of institutional slavery in the form of Capitalism.
A very compelling read.
A very compelling read.
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benjohnson
Guest
Only if they those Catholics don’t want to listen.
Our confessions are conditional - IF the Papal office has the four qualifications in our confession THEN the office is anti-christ. Catholics claim those marks are not true, so therefore Catholics shouldn’t be offended because it doesn’t pertain to the Pope.
Lutherans obviously disagree, but then again, why should Catholics care what Lutherans think about the Papal office.
If we’re going to go down the “who’s the most offended” game - Lutherans would clearly win.
Our document say really nasty things about the (one person) modern papal office, and your documents condemn us (70 million Lutherans) to damnation with some small hope - and then only if we’re invincibly ignorant.
And Lutherans don’t even claim that the holder of the Papal office is destined for anything other than an everlasting life with Christ!
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Topper17
Guest
Hi Randy,
As for what the Confessions says though, actually it gets worse. From the bookofconcord.org/whatarethey.php
Source:
Getting into The Theology of Concord by Robert D. Preus (Robert David Preus (October 16, 1924 – November 4, 1995) was an American Lutheran (LCMS) pastor, professor, author, and seminary president.)
(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1977), pgs. 7-29.
The Lutheran Confessions: What Are They?
The Spirit in Which They Were Written
“We use the word “confession” in a variety of ways today. A young man confesses his love for his fiancee. A criminal confesses to a felony. Christians confess their sins to a fellow believer or at the appropriate time in the church service. The Lutheran Confessions are something quite different from all that. They are written, formal statements with which a group of Christians, or an individual, declare to the world their faith, their deepest and undaunted convictions.
The Lutheran Confessions represent the result of more than 50 years of earnest endeavor by Martin Luther and his followers to give Biblical and clear expression to their religious convictions. The important word in that definition is the word “convictions.” This word reveals the spirit in which the Lutheran Confessions were written, not a spirit of hesitation or doubt, but of deepest confidence that Lutherans, when they were writing and subscribing the Confessions and creeds, because their content was all drawn from the Word of God, Scripture, were affirming the truth, the saving truth……
They [The authors of the Confessions] were confessing their faith and expressing their determination never to depart from that confession. They take their stand as in the presence of God and stake their very salvation on the doctrine they confess. **So confident are they of their position, so certain of their doctrine, that they dare bind not only themselves but also their posterity to it. And in another place they show their willingness to submit themselves not only to the content but to the very phrases of their confession: “We have determined not to depart even a finger’s breadth either from the subjects themselves, or from the phrases which are found in [the Confessions]” **(Preface of the Book of Concord, quoted from Concordia Triglotta [St. Louis: Concordia, 1921], p. 23)……
(Topper: this last sentence would very much support a literal interpretation of the Confessions. After all, it appears that the authors were very concerned that the text be taken very seriously.)
Confessional Subscription, an Evangelical Act
**……And so when the Lutheran pastor subscribes the Lutheran Confessions (and the confirmand or layman confesses his belief in the Catechism [LC, Preface, 19]), this is a primary way in which he willingly and joyfully and without reservation or qualification confesses his faith and proclaims to the world what his belief and doctrine and confession really are. **Dr. C. F. W. Walther, the father of the Missouri Synod, long ago explained the meaning of confessional subscription, and his words are as cogent today as when they were first written:
** An unconditional subscription is the solemn declaration which the individual who wants to serve the church makes under oath (1) ** **that he accepts the doctrinal content of our Symbolical Books, because he recognizes the fact that it is in 15 full agreement with Scripture and does not militate against Scripture in any point, whether that point be of major or minor importance; (2) that he therefore heartily believes in this divine truth and is determined to preach this doctrine… Whether the subject be dealt with expressly or only incidentally, an unconditional subscription refers to the whole content of the Symbols and does not allow the subscriber to make any mental reservation in any point. Nor will he exclude such doctrines as are discussed incidentally in support of other doctrines, because the fact that they are so stamps them as irrevocable articles of faith and demands their joyful acceptance by everyone who subscribes the Symbols. **
This is precisely how the Confessions themselves understand subscription (FC Ep, Rule and Norm, 3, 5, 6; SD, Rule and Norm, 1, 2, 5).
Needless to say, confessional subscription in the nature of the case is binding and unconditional. A subscription with qualifications or reservations is a contradiction in terms and dishonest.”
Source:
Getting into The Theology of Concord by Robert D. Preus
All that being said Randy, the fact is that all Lutherans are supposed to be held to the beliefs expressed in the Lutheran Confessions. Lutheran Pastors, and those joining a Lutheran church, as I understand it, are required to profess their belief in ALL of the beliefs expressed by the Confessions. In other words, in order to be ordained in a Lutheran church, or to join a Lutheran church, you are required to proclaim that you believe all of the ‘things’ expressed in the Confessions, including those things said about the Pope, and for that matter, about the ‘adherents’.
What I think it extremely hopeful is that the Presbyterians have apparently eliminated all of that ‘antiChrist language’. That means that there actually is reason for hope.
God Bless You Randy, Topper
I have seen several former Lutherans on these threads comment that one of the reasons that they left Lutheranism was because they either actually read Luther or became aware of what their Confessions said about things like the ‘AntiChrist’.
As for what the Confessions says though, actually it gets worse. From the bookofconcord.org/whatarethey.php
Source:
Getting into The Theology of Concord by Robert D. Preus (Robert David Preus (October 16, 1924 – November 4, 1995) was an American Lutheran (LCMS) pastor, professor, author, and seminary president.)
(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1977), pgs. 7-29.
The Lutheran Confessions: What Are They?
The Spirit in Which They Were Written
“We use the word “confession” in a variety of ways today. A young man confesses his love for his fiancee. A criminal confesses to a felony. Christians confess their sins to a fellow believer or at the appropriate time in the church service. The Lutheran Confessions are something quite different from all that. They are written, formal statements with which a group of Christians, or an individual, declare to the world their faith, their deepest and undaunted convictions.
The Lutheran Confessions represent the result of more than 50 years of earnest endeavor by Martin Luther and his followers to give Biblical and clear expression to their religious convictions. The important word in that definition is the word “convictions.” This word reveals the spirit in which the Lutheran Confessions were written, not a spirit of hesitation or doubt, but of deepest confidence that Lutherans, when they were writing and subscribing the Confessions and creeds, because their content was all drawn from the Word of God, Scripture, were affirming the truth, the saving truth……
They [The authors of the Confessions] were confessing their faith and expressing their determination never to depart from that confession. They take their stand as in the presence of God and stake their very salvation on the doctrine they confess. **So confident are they of their position, so certain of their doctrine, that they dare bind not only themselves but also their posterity to it. And in another place they show their willingness to submit themselves not only to the content but to the very phrases of their confession: “We have determined not to depart even a finger’s breadth either from the subjects themselves, or from the phrases which are found in [the Confessions]” **(Preface of the Book of Concord, quoted from Concordia Triglotta [St. Louis: Concordia, 1921], p. 23)……
(Topper: this last sentence would very much support a literal interpretation of the Confessions. After all, it appears that the authors were very concerned that the text be taken very seriously.)
Confessional Subscription, an Evangelical Act
**……And so when the Lutheran pastor subscribes the Lutheran Confessions (and the confirmand or layman confesses his belief in the Catechism [LC, Preface, 19]), this is a primary way in which he willingly and joyfully and without reservation or qualification confesses his faith and proclaims to the world what his belief and doctrine and confession really are. **Dr. C. F. W. Walther, the father of the Missouri Synod, long ago explained the meaning of confessional subscription, and his words are as cogent today as when they were first written:
** An unconditional subscription is the solemn declaration which the individual who wants to serve the church makes under oath (1) ** **that he accepts the doctrinal content of our Symbolical Books, because he recognizes the fact that it is in 15 full agreement with Scripture and does not militate against Scripture in any point, whether that point be of major or minor importance; (2) that he therefore heartily believes in this divine truth and is determined to preach this doctrine… Whether the subject be dealt with expressly or only incidentally, an unconditional subscription refers to the whole content of the Symbols and does not allow the subscriber to make any mental reservation in any point. Nor will he exclude such doctrines as are discussed incidentally in support of other doctrines, because the fact that they are so stamps them as irrevocable articles of faith and demands their joyful acceptance by everyone who subscribes the Symbols. **
This is precisely how the Confessions themselves understand subscription (FC Ep, Rule and Norm, 3, 5, 6; SD, Rule and Norm, 1, 2, 5).
Needless to say, confessional subscription in the nature of the case is binding and unconditional. A subscription with qualifications or reservations is a contradiction in terms and dishonest.”
Source:
Getting into The Theology of Concord by Robert D. Preus
All that being said Randy, the fact is that all Lutherans are supposed to be held to the beliefs expressed in the Lutheran Confessions. Lutheran Pastors, and those joining a Lutheran church, as I understand it, are required to profess their belief in ALL of the beliefs expressed by the Confessions. In other words, in order to be ordained in a Lutheran church, or to join a Lutheran church, you are required to proclaim that you believe all of the ‘things’ expressed in the Confessions, including those things said about the Pope, and for that matter, about the ‘adherents’.
What I think it extremely hopeful is that the Presbyterians have apparently eliminated all of that ‘antiChrist language’. That means that there actually is reason for hope.
God Bless You Randy, Topper
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spina1953
Guest
Hi Topper: Mice! Could not have said it better!
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