Looking Back at what the Reformation has Done

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Here is a thought: Knowing the Bible does not make one a Christians as un Christians can read it also. Christians do not call others names, disrespect others or demean others, are not puffed up with their own sense of holiness or knowledge nor do the cut others down because they happen to disagree. it is said that Faith, Hope and Charity and that Charity is the greatest of these, and without Christy Faith and Hope become meaningless. I think Luther should have practiced this instead of ranting and raving with a temper tantrum like a kid against his betters.
 
Jon,
I don’t have the same affinity for Luther you may have. I guess I think of my LCMS Pastor friend who was a wonderful law/gospel preacher and once he said “We may be as different as Catholic and Lutheran but we are as similar as two believing Christians” and sometimes that is good enough.

Given he had a great sense of humor he also smiled and said “I can’t wait to get to heaven to find out who was right” . LOL!!~

In his peace that transcends all understanding…
Mary.
Hi Mary: makes sense. sounds to me that he was a charitable person.
 
Hi Mary: makes sense. sounds to me that he was a charitable person.
Yes he was. He was also doctrinally oriented and we had some very “interesting” discussions given I am so as well. We both felt doctrine should not be sold out for the sake of unity and I am sure no one else does as well on thread.

The issue to me is how do we move forward if we “sugarcoat” our major difference with Lutheran brethren regarding justification and Authority and the differences in morals with the ELCA regarding abortion, women ordination, and homosexuality.

That answer I hope can be found here on earth some day.
 
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           What Luther seems failed to realize was that he was causing a major break in Christian religious beliefs to the point that others felt that they now could decide for themselves what Scripture said and meant without the authority of the CC. Over time what this did was change how people understood Scripture in the way the CC taught to individual authority where now the Bible became the ultimate authority instead of the CC.We see this in our day and age where in every church group personal and private interpretation of Scripture is the norm, in which each and every individual claims guidance from the Holy Spirit asserting they are correct in their interpretations and others are incorrect. This is what the Reformation has done; it has caused distortion of what Scripture say and means.
HI, Indeed !!!

A curious Thing since, 30 AD. Every 500yrs the catholic church is attacked from within mostly. From 30AD Arius/ Schism/ Luther/ Now ?

God Bless:)

Almost like God is doing some separating at these intervals ? and after each interval it seems the CC, has grown even more ?:hmmm:
 
HI, Indeed !!!

A curious Thing since, 30 AD. Every 500yrs the catholic church is attacked from within mostly. From 30AD Arius/ Schism/ Luther/ Now ?

God Bless:)

Almost like God is doing some separating at these intervals ? and after each interval it seems the CC, has grown even more ?:hmmm:
HI omenow: Now that’s a thought! maybe a new thread?
 
If Luther could have foreseen clearly what has happened to western Christianity over the past 500 years, would Luther have said and done the things that history records of him?

If you had been Luther, would you have followed the same course he took?

Why or why not?
I had already voted when I saw the nuance of your poll. It is difficult to look for retrospective intent of a person living several hundred years ago.

I would have to conclude that he would have acted in a similar manner. Foreknowledge of consequences seldom deters people from following strong impulses to act. It is a rare individual who posses the patience, trust, and hopefulness to bury one’s rebellious tendencies. That being said, I believe all things work to God’s greater good.
 
HI, Indeed !!!

A curious Thing since, 30 AD. Every 500yrs the catholic church is attacked from within mostly. From 30AD Arius/ Schism/ Luther/ Now ?

God Bless:)

Almost like God is doing some separating at these intervals ? and after each interval it seems the CC, has grown even more ?:hmmm:
Arius died in 336.
 
Hi Spina,

Thanks for your response.
Hi Topper: In regards to your 413 post I agree. From my reading I very much got the impression that Luther believed himself to be a prophet; that every word that came out his mouth was God’s words and not his own. It also seems to me that Luther when writing was not very well thought out due to his all consuming hatred of the CC and those who opposed him and disagreed with his theologies and teachings. The more anyone disagreed, the more the CC refused to go along with what Luther wanted the more vicious and violent he became in his attacks. It appears from his writings that I have read that Luther had no respect for anyone who refused to accept his teachings and theology. It seems to me that Luther was all consumed with hatred of the CC because the CC would not agree with him nor change into the way that Luther wanted the CC to be which was Luther’s way or the highway so to speak.
Well put! It would be difficult to propose anything different, unless one were ignorant of the history involved (which you are not of course).
In the end all this caused was for others who somehow felt that the CC was somehow wrong, some of it due to abuses by Church officials decided that the CC doctrines were also wrong so they too decided that since Luther was able to break away from the CC so to could they. Now what we see looking back at what the Reformation has done and seems to continue to be doing is facture into more and more separate and individual churches all with varying degrees of doctrines and beliefs that seem to be ever changing.
Agreed. It isn’t so much that Luther led so many away from the Church that Christ founded, but that he led them to a ‘system’ that could produce nothing but continued doctrinal dissension. His dealings with those ‘other’ Protestants show how greatly he considered his authority to dictate to THEM. From the “Conclusion” of Edwards’s excellent book – “Luther and the False Brethren”:

“There are several ways which controversies among evangelicals and Catholics differed strikingly from controversies among evangelicals. In controversies between evangelicals and Catholics, Luther usually made an effort not to attach his name to the beliefs he espoused; **when challenged by other evangelicals, he occasionally supplemented his theological arguments with claims about himself and his special role in the reformation movement.” **Edwards, pg. 197

This of course begs the question as to what, specifically and exactly that ‘special role’ was and who ‘authorized’ it. It also calls us to question whether his ‘claims about himself’ can be or are supported by those who follow him today.

“**Again and again Luther accused Zwingli, Oecolampadius, Bucer, Agricola, Bullinger, and Schwenckfeld of being false brethren and lying hypocrites, **but these men generally acknowledged that Luther was a fellow Christian even though he erred.” Ibid, pg. 198

“This essay (the one that Edwards is writing) has focused on two ways in which Luther sharpened the differences between himself and his evangelical opponents. One was by his claiming special authority, and on this basis attempting to get those who were unsure or who did not fully understand the disagreement or its significance to accept his position. The second way was by maligning his evangelical opponents, thus raising doubts about the validity of doctrine espoused by such evil men. On the basis of the material offered him by Scripture and the history of the Church, **he developed a world view that not only supported his claim of special authority but also explained the division among evangelicals, sustained his position theologically and psychologically, **and justified to both himself and his followers **his unrestrained attack on other evangelicals…….Within this schema, Luther was a true prophet, his evangelical prophets false prophets.” **Edwards, Ibid, pg. 199

If a Lutheran Professor at the Harvard Divinity School, who was also a former Lutheran College President, can make these comments, I fail to understand how I can be personally criticized for quoting him.

Spina, do you understand this?

This ‘special authority’ that Luther claimed was used to refute the teachings of the Catholic Church and establish a ‘competitive’ version of Christianity. Do his followers today believe that Luther had this kind of ‘special authority’ and if so, how do they define it?

God Bless You, Topper
 
Hi Mary,

Thanks for your response.
My thought is that Edwards is just representing history accurately and should not be chastised for his comments. I’m not an expert though in chastisement. Last time I recall doing such a thing was with children not adults.
God bless you too,
Mary.
It seems to me that these Scholars, of all communions, have to protect their reputations as being unbiased. As such, they simply cannot be viewed as being anything other than fair. In the case of Edwards, he seems to be more interested in the actual history than he is in ‘protecting’ Luther. I very much appreciate his willingness to deal with the facts as they are.

I think that there are five ‘levels’ of evidence on things like this. In terms of their relative importance and credibility to Protestants, from the greatest to the least:
  1. Historical facts - as reported by any source.
  2. Comments and opinions by Protestant Scholars
  3. Comments and opinions by Catholic Scholars
  4. Comments and opinions by Protestant Apologists
  5. Comments and opinions by Catholic Apologists.
This is not to say that the comments of Catholic Scholars and Apologists are to be ignored, but only that they will be viewed, by Protestants, as being biased. This is as if Protestant Scholars and Apologists are somehow immune from having a pro-Luther bias. IOW, when a Protestant Scholar makes a negative assessment about Luther, it should be viewed by Protestants as being done without bias.

All that being said, I am not at all suggesting that my opinions should be completely discounted, as some might prefer. If my comments fit the evidence better than what is being offered in opposition, then it seems that they should be considered.

Does that make sense?

God Bless You Mary, Topper
 
Hi Mary,

Thanks for your response.

It seems to me that these Scholars, of all communions, have to protect their reputations as being unbiased. As such, they simply cannot be viewed as being anything other than fair. In the case of Edwards, he seems to be more interested in the actual history than he is in ‘protecting’ Luther. I very much appreciate his willingness to deal with the facts as they are.

I think that there are five ‘levels’ of evidence on things like this. In terms of their relative importance and credibility to Protestants, from the greatest to the least:
  1. Historical facts - as reported by any source.
  2. Comments and opinions by Protestant Scholars
  3. Comments and opinions by Catholic Scholars
  4. Comments and opinions by Protestant Apologists
  5. Comments and opinions by Catholic Apologists.
This is not to say that the comments of Catholic Scholars and Apologists are to be ignored, but only that they will be viewed, by Protestants, as being biased. This is as if Protestant Scholars and Apologists are somehow immune from having a pro-Luther bias. IOW, when a Protestant Scholar makes a negative assessment about Luther, it should be viewed by Protestants as being done without bias.
And that’s a major part of your problem and why you aren’t very convincing.

Protestant scholars may have all sorts of biases that cause them to say a particular thing.

And you insult Protestants when you assume that they are going to dismiss something said by a Catholic scholar.

We need to take all the scholarship into account (of course impossible given how much has been written on Luther) and weigh it on its own merits, not by what confession the author belonged to.

You seem to be still rather exhilarated by the fact that you can find Protestant scholars who have said bad things about Luther.

At what point are you going to move on and start trying to take all the evidence into account?

Edwin
 
:rolleyes:
Don’t be too appreciative.
Ok, if you insist. :rolleyes:

QUOTE=JonNC;12728479]Recognizing that you are not breaking the letter of the rules doesn’t mean I believe you post in a spirit of charitable dialogue, which has been the hallmark of Catholic Answers Forums, when compared to some of the non-Catholic forums.

The historical facts Jon are neither charitable nor ‘uncharitable’. They are simply the facts. For the record, I do see the humor though in being called uncharitable by a follower of Luther.

Do you think that Lutheran Professor Mark U. Edwards is being uncharitable? Do you think that this Lutheran Professor should make more of an effort to ‘stay positive’?

Edwards is currently at the Harvard Divinity School, and was formerly the President of St. Olaf College (Lutheran). If you would like to contact him and discuss any of his opinions, his contact information is as follows:

medwards@hds.harvard.edu
p: 617.495.4514

Jon, I certainly seem to draw a lot of fire for revealing facts about Luther. Why not criticize Edwards also?

I post historical facts about Martin Luther and rather than refuting them, which of course you cannot, (because they are facts of course) we read complaints about my ‘style’. If keeping things ‘positive’ means that we are not ‘allowed’ discuss the historical facts, then count me out. Personally I believe the actions and lesser known teaching of Martin Luther go directly to the issue of his credibility as a valid “Reformer”. It seems that you agree since you seem so opposed to my posting them.

If you disagree with the Lutheran Scholars that I post then you should make your disagreement with them specific and known. What is it in Edwards comments about which you disagree?

Just off the top of my head, I have quoted on these threads the following Lutheran Scholars, Schweibert, Edwards, Kolb, Brecht, Junghans, Lull, Gritsch, Wriedt, Strohl, Lindburg, Hillerbrand, Nestingen, Kittelson, Jenson, Pelikan, Linderman, Schramm, Stjerna, and of course, the ‘ultimate Lutheran”; Martin Luther himself. That’s just off the top of my head Jon. You can’t say that I don’t give Lutheran Scholars ‘equal time’. I quote Lutheran Scholars probably 5 times more than I do Catholics, in spite of the fact that statistically there are probably about 10 times more Catholic Scholars than there are Lutherans. As such, in my posts, the Lutheran Scholars are tremendously overrepresented in my posts.

I find it very telling when Protestants go to anti-Catholic websites and bring back their ‘evidence’, presenting it as if we should believe it to be true. As for me on the other hand, there are many Catholic authors that I will NOT use because they are too biased. I believe people should look at my comments, and yours, and they should determine which fits better with the established facts. Of course that requires that actually they know the facts, and not just ‘one side of the facts’.
 
Mark Edwards is not Lutheranism’s most prolific Luther scholar. He wrote two excellent books and then moved on to other things.
For the record, Edwards is currently on the faculty of the Harvard Divinity School. His bio from their website states:

“Education: PhD, Stanford University

Mark U. Edwards, Jr., became Professor of the History of Christianity at HDS in 1987, after teaching at Wellesley College and Purdue University. He was at HDS until July 1994, when he became the ninth president of St. Olaf College in Northfield, Minnesota. In 2000 Edwards stepped down from the St. Olaf presidency and moved to New Hampshire. He returned to HDS in May 2003.

Edwards has written four books and numerous articles on Martin Luther and the German Reformation. The most recent book, entitled Printing, Propaganda, and Martin Luther (University of California Press, 1994; reprint, Fortress Press, 2005), deals with the West’s first “mass media campaign” and Luther’s pivotal role as both subject and object in the struggle for the hearts and minds of sixteenth-century Christians.”

Rather than the two books by Edwards on Luther as you suggested, he has actually written four. Since I only own three of them, I apparently need to obtain the other one.
He’s just a Luther scholar you like, because he focuses on Luther’s darker side. Quite rightly and appropriately, be it said.

What isn’t right or appropriate is for you to harp on these things with no attempt to be fair.

And you are not justified by the fact that Protestants do it on the other side. Two wrongs don’t make a right. As I said some posts ago, and have said before, you are ironically imitating Luther’s approach, though with less vehemence (also less interestingly). You are overemphasizing the side that you perceive as underemphasized.

This just produces an endless seesaw, not a fair and constructive picture.

You aren’t accomplishing anything with all this except to “annoy the pig.”
First of all, pigs don’t have fingers and so they are not well equipped to learn how to play music. I would like to know though who you think the ‘pig’ is here? And since we are on the subject of animals, Arthur Cushman McGiffert records Luther as having made the following comment in regards to his well-known and self-admitted ‘polemical style’:

“I cannot deny that I have been more vehement than is seemly. But since they knew then, they ought not to have stirred up the dog.” “Martin Luther”, pg. 153-4

Here we learn that Luther believed that his abuse of his opponents, calling them liars and agents of Satan and the like, SHOULD have caused them to cease their criticism of him.

Edwin, do you personally believe that people should have been so concerned about Luther’s attacks on them that they should have halted their criticisms?

As you might well imagine, I do not. In fact, I think that that kind of attitude is all the more deserving of increased criticism. It seems to me that Luther wanted to be the ‘big dog’ in charge and wanted everyone else to cower. Basically he wanted them to SHUT UP. As you know, the literature is full of comments about Luther’s ‘polemical style’.

You may choose to disagree Edwin, but given Luther’s treatment of his opponents, I don’t think Lutherans have a leg to stand on whatsoever in complaining about anybody’s ‘polemical style’ in their criticism of Luther. That seems to me to be extraordinarily hypocritical.

What I appreciate about Edwards is that he honestly represents the historical facts, revealing the real Luther in the process, and yet he still remains a faithful Lutheran. Obviously he has found some way to reconcile the historical Luther with his belief in Lutheranism and it’s foundations. He does not duck the tough issues but reports them in what appears to be an unbiased manner. I find that admirable.

You claim that this is not fair. I disagree. Is there or is there not room for differing opinions here Edwin?

What I think is not fair are the representations of Luther, including a lot here on CA, which are, well - ‘overly generous’. I would think that you would believe that it is important to understand the actual history of the early Reformation. I also don’t think that you would disagree that the popular history of Luther has been anything but ‘overly generous’. There really needs to be a ‘counterbalance’ that DOES move the needle back toward what is in truth, actually fair. The ‘counterbalance’ that I provide is made up of things that have been tremendously ‘under-reported’.

Those things which are ‘overly generous’ to Luther are, in reality, unfair to the Catholic Church because they are ‘overly ungenerous’ to the Church.
 
Hi Lucy: You might correct but I kind a think that the reformation did a lot of damage in how and what one believes concerning Christian religious beliefs. There were of course those who wanted and looked for reforms due to abuses by Church officials within the Cc and those who left the CC. I do think that because God gave us free will then the choice it on the individual to decide. Remember that that the Orthodox in the East went into schism over what they did not believe in what the West was teaching.
Simply blaming everything on free will is just an excuse.

Some Catholics, lay and clerics alike, apparently believe that they can on the one hand, sin, and on the other hand, expect and even demand that this should not in any way affect other people.

But it does affect them.

And what these Catholics then tend to do to those hurt and vulnerable people, who are already on the ground, is to kick them.

For example, the late priest here where I live had illegitimate children which he fathered when he was already a priest, and this was no secret. In fact, it’s not that rare for this to happen. The CC let him have his position despite that. How am I to trust such a man?? How am I to trust the CC when it allows such things?

Is all you can tell me that I am wrongfully focusing on the speck of sawdust in his eye and the Church’s eyes, and pay no attention to the plank in my own eye?
Is all you can tell me that it is simply up to my free will to stay or to go?

Is it really so outrageous and offensive to expect that the clerics should live up to their standards, and that they should be removed from their position of power if they don’t live up to those standards?
You make some excellent points, Spina. Where should reform begin? What is the final authority? The Bible or the Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth? If you work within the Church the there his hope for unity in my opinion. If you look outside the Church or to the Bible alone it is subject to interpretation and leads to division.

That said of course there were abuses in the Church but of course we as Catholics believe the doctrine remains in the truth as protected by the Holy Spirit in spite of the sinners in the Church. The Church is a hospital of sinners it is often said and one of my favorites is if you find a Church with no sinners then you won’t be able to join.
So if someone betrays you, the solution is to continue trusting them?
Hi MaryT777: I agree! The CC since its beginnings has had those who for whatever reason did not agree with what was being taught. There was also abuses by those within the CC. there were a great many questions about what was being taught by some Bishops and they were called on to recant and some did and some did not. When Luther began the Reformation while he was not the only one as history does show that from time to time there are those who held some belief different from what the CC taught. In every era there will always be questions and there will always be some who will not accept what the CC teaches. it may very well be that in the very beginning Luther had good intentions but it did not take long till he decided that his teaching and theology was in his view the only correct to hold and that the catholic Church was wrong in what it taught. Others decided that the CC was wrong in what it taught but also thought that Luther was wrong also because they had interpreted Scripture differently than what Luther had interpreted.
When the situation is that even high clerics appear to be holding doctrines different than the official Catholic Church, then what?

When a person has to submit to a CC cleric that even the CC thinks is corrupt but leaves him in position – what is one supposed to do?
I also think St. Paul would be surprised that what he wrote; his letters are now considered Scripture and more so to think someone like Luther would interpret his writings in the way and manor in which Luther did. I also think that if the Apostles had lived or that Luther lived during the time of the Apostles he would have been cast out for his teachings and theologies and the hatred he ranted towards those who disagreed with him would not have been tolerated by the Apostles and by Jesus Himself.
I think Luther’s “hatred” was the anger felt by someone who was betrayed, and betrayed in a profound sense.
 
=Topper17;12732994]
The historical facts Jon are neither charitable nor ‘uncharitable’. They are simply the facts. For the record, I do see the humor though in being called uncharitable by a follower of Luther.
I am a follower of Christ.
You are correct, though, historical facts are neither charitable nor uncharitable. So, it comes down to the presentation, and the motives of the presenter.
But this a curious position, in that your statement, and later in your response to Edwin,…
You may choose to disagree Edwin, but given Luther’s treatment of his opponents, I don’t think Lutherans have a leg to stand on whatsoever in complaining about anybody’s ‘polemical style’ in their criticism of Luther. That seems to me to be extraordinarily hypocritical.
…seems to indicate that you believe you have permission to be uncharitable because Luther was. It is a quite revealing statement.
Jon, I certainly seem to draw a lot of fire for revealing facts about Luther. Why not criticize Edwards also?
Motives, as your above statement reveals, and a lack of balance. No other Lutheran Reformer, other than perhaps Melanchthon, and none of the Reformers from other Reformation era movements seem to attract you need to expose.
I post historical facts about Martin Luther and rather than refuting them, which of course you cannot, (because they are facts of course) we read complaints about my ‘style’.
Why would I refute them if they are true? Its remarkable how you miss the entire point, even though you comment about it to Edwin specifically about Edwards:
What I appreciate about Edwards is that he honestly represents the historical facts, revealing the real Luther in the process, and yet he still remains a faithful Lutheran. Obviously he has found some way to reconcile the historical Luther with his belief in Lutheranism and it’s foundations. He does not duck the tough issues but reports them in what appears to be an unbiased manner. I find that admirable.
I have told you over and over essentially the same. What I think is humorous is you think you are “revealing” (as if :rolleyes:) the “real Luther” by constantly using Lutheran writers. Clever, we Lutherans, surreptitiously hiding “the real Luther” in plain sight by writing about his flaws for all to read.
But the “real Luther” isn’t exclusively his dark side, as CATHOLIC scholars, Pope Benedict as a superb example, have known for decades.

www1.villanova.edu/villanova/mission/campusministry/spirituality/resources/spirituality/augustinians/famous/luther.html
If Roman Catholics recognize an authentically evangelical thrust surging through the more or less adequate formulas of Luther and Reformation anthropology in general, then they must see in it a theology of grace that is a valid complement to their own and other traditional formulations.
Luther was a religious genius and deserving of consideration as a doctor of the Church universal. He accurately theologized the cardinal point of the Christian vision of human existence in its relationship to God at a time when the Catholic hierarchy, caught in the whirlpool of the Renaissance and the real politik of emerging nation states, could not hear him.
**The fundamental coherence of Luther’s position with Augustine, the Council of Orange and Thomas Aquinas, along with its striking formulation, merit for him pride of place with them in the Western theological tradition. **This ecumenical recognition is now evident in recent Catholic publications in Christian anthropology. An excellent illustration of this recognition is work done recently on the differences between Luther and Thomas Aquinas. Needless to say, they are quite different. But while Luther can be described as an “existential” theologian focused on our experience of ourselves as sinners graced through Christ, Thomas can be seen as a “sapiential” theologian focused on God the creator, transforming his creatures into friends.
Bolding is mine.
If keeping things ‘positive’ means that we are not ‘allowed’ discuss the historical facts, then count me out. Personally I believe the actions and lesser known teaching of Martin Luther go directly to the issue of his credibility as a valid “Reformer”. It seems that you agree since you seem so opposed to my posting them.
You keep returning to this point. Who is preventing you from presenting and discussing historical facts?
If you disagree with the Lutheran Scholars that I post then you should make your disagreement with them specific and known. What is it in Edwards comments about which you disagree?
Just off the top of my head, I have quoted on these threads the following Lutheran Scholars, Schweibert, Edwards, Kolb, Brecht, Junghans, Lull, Gritsch, Wriedt, Strohl, Lindburg, Hillerbrand, Nestingen, Kittelson, Jenson, Pelikan, Linderman, Schramm, Stjerna, and of course, the ‘ultimate Lutheran”; Martin Luther himself. That’s just off the top of my head Jon. You can’t say that I don’t give Lutheran Scholars ‘equal time’. I quote Lutheran Scholars probably 5 times more than I do Catholics, in spite of the fact that statistically there are probably about 10 times more Catholic Scholars than there are Lutherans. As such, in my posts, the Lutheran Scholars are tremendously overrepresented in my posts.
Exactly, which shows that you stated purpose, to expose the “real Luther” is nonsense.
His dark side has long been exposed.

continued
 
I find it very telling when Protestants go to anti-Catholic websites and bring back their ‘evidence’, presenting it as if we should believe it to be true.
Again, this calls to mind the idiomatic “pot and kettle”.
As for me on the other hand, there are many Catholic authors that I will NOT use because they are too biased. I believe people should look at my comments, and yours, and they should determine which fits better with the established facts. Of course that requires that actually they know the facts, and not just ‘one side of the facts’.
Do you mean the ones such as those I’ve mentioned - are they too biased towards Luther?
But you are correct. As I have said, I intend not to “reveal” or “expose” “the dark side” of various Catholics through history. One can research that topic if they choose. I see no point in doing so. So, I’ll accept that comparison.

Jon
 
Jon,
I don’t have the same affinity for Luther you may have. I guess I think of my LCMS Pastor friend who was a wonderful law/gospel preacher and once he said “We may be as different as Catholic and Lutheran but we are as similar as two believing Christians” and sometimes that is good enough.

Given he had a great sense of humor he also smiled and said “I can’t wait to get to heaven to find out who was right” . LOL!!~

In his peace that transcends all understanding…
Mary.
Thank you, Mary.

His peace also with you,
Jon
 
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