Looking Back at what the Reformation has Done

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Edwin, Sorry. Of course "reform “existed”.

It was suggested Luther should have followed certain examples of these reformers. I was not aware that all reform is the same, that Luther’s complaints were like those of Francis of Assisi or Theresa of Avila or Catherine of Sienna.
No, you are not getting the point…those reformers were able to effect reform, castigate and tell the pope to reform (like Catherine of Siena and Contarini)…all without causing a further split in the church (in other words…to heal the church) and get excommunicated by for the attempts at Reforming the church. In other words…Luther could have followed the path of the examples of those reformers prior to him…or learned from them…🤷
 
It’s 500 year old news - I’m hard-pressed to sustain outrage against offenses that are 5 years old let alone 500. Luther was not the only actor on the Reformation stage. Let’s castigate some others, and let poor Martin have a rest, OK?
Admirable…but you still hold a 500 year old grudge against the popes…you still believe in this…though somewhat toned down in its explanation:

*Of the Antichrist
43.As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled
in the Pope of Rome and his dominion.

All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 30*
 
Some would like “outrage”.

“Where is the outrage at Luther, who is actually the one who wrote these things?”, Post # 346

I agree that perhaps Topper’s way is not the best.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/lutheran1.html

There’s one. It wasn’t just Luther and Lutheranism that was anti-Jewish and blamed the Jews for killing Jesus Christ. The entire medivial Church was. What about the Jewish ghettos and the Inquisition and expulsion of the Jews. I’m not blaming the Catholics for this. In fact I have often defended the RCC against my fundamentalist friends who blame the RCC for anti-semitism, say the Pope"s the Antichrist,ect.
I know that modern Popes and theologians have apologized for these things and Chrisitianity in general is a friend to Judaism now.
I don’t think it’s productive for some Catholics to bash Luther and paint him as the devil,as I’ve seen here and elsewhere.
As I said above: I really like the approach the last 3 Popes especially have taken towards healing the breach with Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Orthodoxy, ect. That’s the way to go.
We have a lot in common.
What Luther said was horrible. No one defends it. But don’t forget the RCC did some terrible things to the Jews, including torture and burning at the stake. Just sayin’.
I know none of this was done in the spirit of Christ and I know the Church has apologized and it certainly wouldn’t stop me from wanting to convert-
The medieval Church in general was very anti-Semitic.
 
=Randy Carson;12716227]Okay, guys.
I’m going to back off on this topic now because I’m still hoping for that big breakthrough at the joint dialogue meetings that will enable you to come back to the Original Church of Jesus without being too upset about it.
Upset about it? I’d be thrilled !!
But I would like to point out that while it’s great that everyone is disavowing Luther’s statements regarding the Jews…what we Catholics would like to see is disavowal of that AntiChrist stuff that is still a part of your confessions in the 21st century. :sad_yes:
Me too, Randy. ISTM that, like the anathemas of Trent, this gets solved by that breakthrough you described above. 👍

Jon
 
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/lutheran1.html

There’s one. It wasn’t just Luther and Lutheranism that was anti-Jewish and blamed the Jews for killing Jesus Christ. The entire medivial Church was. What about the Jewish ghettos and the Inquisition and expulsion of the Jews. I’m not blaming the Catholics for this. In fact I have often defended the RCC against my fundamentalist friends who blame the RCC for anti-semitism, say the Pope"s the Antichrist,ect.
I know that modern Popes and theologians have apologized for these things and Chrisitianity in general is a friend to Judaism now.
I don’t think it’s productive for some Catholics to bash Luther and paint him as the devil,as I’ve seen here and elsewhere.
As I said above: I really like the approach the last 3 Popes especially have taken towards healing the breach with Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Orthodoxy, ect. That’s the way to go.
We have a lot in common.
What Luther said was horrible. No one defends it. But don’t forget the RCC did some terrible things to the Jews, including torture and burning at the stake. Just sayin’.
I know none of this was done in the spirit of Christ and I know the Church has apologized and it certainly wouldn’t stop me from wanting to convert-
The medieval Church in general was very anti-Semitic.
This was never meant to be a discussion on Luther and anyone for that matter regarding the Jews. I asked a Lutheran poster if there were any official documents LCMS specifically. regarding sins of the reformation and any apologies for the division.

For some reason the answer I received was regarding the Jews. That should be a separate thread if anyone would like to discuss it.

Mary.
 
This was never meant to be a discussion on Luther and anyone for that matter regarding the Jews. I asked a Lutheran poster if there were any official documents LCMS specifically. regarding sins of the reformation and any apologies for the division.

For some reason the answer I received was regarding the Jews. That should be a separate thread if anyone would like to discuss it.

Mary.
Hi Mary,
I responded to this before
Hi Mary,
Your actual question was:

Is there a document that notes and recognizes the above statement you make that the there were sins in the past and currently that you can link to that the LCMS as well agrees with?

You asked the question in response to my post, which said,

** Oh, I think many thoughtful Lutherans recognize the sins of the Reformers, and more so, the current sins on our side that continue and maintain the disunity. **

Clearly, Luther’s anti-judaism was sinful, and the statement from the LCMS clearly and distinctly states so.

Jon
 
Okay, guys.

I’m going to back off on this topic now because I’m still hoping for that big breakthrough at the joint dialogue meetings that will enable you to come back to the Original Church of Jesus without being too upset about it.

🙂

But I would like to point out that while it’s great that everyone is disavowing Luther’s statements regarding the Jews…what we Catholics would like to see is disavowal of that AntiChrist stuff that is still a part of your confessions in the 21st century. :sad_yes:
👍
 
Hi Mary,
I responded to this before
I think Mary was asking for something “official”…official documents LCMS specifically. regarding sins of the reformation and any apologies for the division.

What you posted is your personallly…and may not be “official” from the LCMS.
 
It isn’t being rationalized. Its recognizing and stating our position. If you wish to say that it is a Jekyll and Hyde view, fine. In fact, the idea of the regenerate being at once saint and sinner is deeply Lutheran. One sees that in St. Peter, being able to deny Christ, yet making perhaps the single most important statement in scripture and in history by a human: “you are the Christ, the Son of the living God”.
We see and recognize that in Luther, and popes, and everyday Catholics and Lutherans, and others, as well.
 
Upset about it? I’d be thrilled !!

Currently Reading: The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism by Louis Bouyer

Jon
I noticed you are on this book…good read…where are you with it? Almost done?
 
Jon was quoting an official resolution –a written document with text available online– of the entire Synod assembled in convention.

For authoritative statements from the LCMS, you really can’t get any more “official.” What more do you want? :confused:
Are you referring to this…Q: What is the Missouri Synod’s response to the anti-Semitic statements made by Luther?

This is regarding the attitude of Luther towards the Jews…and not towards the sins of the Reformation.

So Lutherans have repented on this part…how about the other parts? That is what is being asked.

See the distinction of what is asked and what is provided for?

From post 257:

Q[SIGN]uote:
Originally Posted by JonNC View Post
Hi Mary,
Your actual question was:

Is there a document that notes and recognizes the above statement you make that the there were sins in the past and currently that you can link to that the LCMS as well agrees with?

You asked the question in response to my post, which said,

Oh, I think many thoughtful Lutherans recognize the sins of the Reformers, and more so, the current sins on our side that continue and maintain the disunity.
But no statement from any Lutheran body stating such…is what Mary was asking for, similar to the statement in the CCC…and whicjh I have also asked previously.

Quote:
Clearly, Luther’s anti-judaism was sinful, and the statement from the LCMS clearly and distinctly states so.

Jon
But this was for the Jews, and Luther’s attitude towards the Jews…and not about the Reformation and its sins…[/SIGN]
 
The question in the OP was about whether Luther would have done things differently had he been able to foresee the results of his teachings. Given that his teachings had a huge part in breaking off what is now 30% of Christianity from the Mother Church, this is an extremely important question. The fact is that that 30% has now become fractured into tens of thousands of competing doctrinally independent sects. Luther’s doctrine of Sola Scriptura is primarily responsible for this denominalization. While this is evident from having the advantage of hindsight, more than half the people who have voted here believe that, had Luther known what was ‘going to happen’, he would have done things pretty much the same as he did.

It appears that most people here believe that Luther was more interested in furthering his own agenda than he was in protecting the unity commanded by Christ and Scripture. This should cause us to delve deeper into Luther’s concept of his own authority. Lutheran Professor Mark U. Edwards comments on Luther’s early attitude towards ‘other’ Protestants:

**“……Luther could distinguish his position from Karlstadt’s or Zwilling’s, even if he had to distort – unknowlingly or unwittingly – their position to do so, and the more he could impugn their personal character and motives, **the more he could argue with seeming justice that he and his movement and reputation of the reformation were at stake, **Luther may have felt it necessary to make the issue of responsibility clear-cut **and then to disavow those allegedly responsible as unequivocally and convincingly as possible.

**The disavowel took the form of an ad hominem attack. ** The grounds on which he made the attack theologically sound and credible not only to Luther himself but to his followers and contemporaries as well. Drawing on accounts in the Bible and on the history of heresy, **he charged that Satan had once again sent his false prophets to mislead the entire church. **Although they appeared to adhere to the gospel, they were in fact ‘Judases,’ and Luther laid all responsibility on the satanic spirit which he claimed motivated each of them.” Edwards, “Luther and the False Brethern”, pg. 21-22

Here we learn that Luther considered those who opposed his doctrines to be ‘motivated’ by a satanic spirit. **He was also prone to publically questioning their motives and their personal character. ** In what was, at least to Luther, a battle between good and evil, Luther was not of a mind to give any ground.

Edwards continues:

**“In order that the false prophet could be recognized for what he was, Luther had defined the salient characteristics of the true prophet **and apostle in a letter to Melanchthon in early January 1522. Relying on Scripture, he told Melanchthon that a true prophet must be called through men or at least attested to by signs, and must have experienced spiritual distress and the divine birth, death, and hell.” Ibid, pg. 22

Of course, Luther had experienced horrific spiritual distresses. Obviously he had to develop ‘criteria’ which included himself while excluding his Protestant opponents.

In the late 16th century, a Lutheran Professor at the University of Jena wrote that:
**
‘Luther did not need miracles to confirm that he was a special saint of God, for miracles are needed only to confirm new doctrine.**’ In Kolb, “Martin Luther as Prophet, Teacher, and Hero”, pg. 117

This was basically Luther’s approach. Others needed to have visible miracles in order to refute him. He didn’t need them to refute the ‘others’.

Marius speaks of Luther’s lack of ‘signs’.
**
“In a curious paradox, this letter revealed some of Luther’s weaknesses against the storm of Catholic attack rising against him. He himself would be regularly accused of claiming private revelation against the tradition of the church for centuries. Once upon a time, he said, anyone who claimed private revelation, had it certified by someone else. **When the child Samuel heard the voice of God calling him, Eli the priest testified that it was so. **Luther placed himself in this line so that the truly Godly men of his own time would affirm his divine call. But as Catholic were to point out time and again, this attitude begged the question. These ancient prophets of the Hebrew Bible also had their prophetic mission validated by ‘signs’, (signa). ‘Signs’ are used in the biblical text, especially in the fourth Gospel, denotes miracles, and Luther could claim no miracles to confirm his divine mission **Even Erasmus would throw this barb at him. Perhaps the constancy of these attacks moved Luther to the opinion that the word of God came to the church through its appointed ministers, those able to interpret with their own voices the Word for their time. **As Heiko Oberman has observed, Luther never grounded his own authority either in special revelation or in deep mystical experience. He claimed only to be an expositor of Scripture. **Yet his reading of Scripture at this time involved tortured and allegorical interpretations, and his reasoning had a circular quality that foes were quick to point out and ridicule.” **Marius, pg. 324

Returning to Edwards:

“Zwilling had not been called to public preaching in Wittenberg or elsewhere. The Zwickau prophets had the least justification for their preaching of any, for they were laymen who claimed their authority solely from a divine call yet were unable to produce any signs. Luther pointed out, other than those Satan himself could produce, namely, violence and unrest.’ The failure of Karlstadt, Zwilling, and the Zwickau prophets to meet these tests identified them to Luther’s satisfaction as false prophets and Satan’s minions." ** Edwards, “Luther and the False Brethren”, pg. 22-3
 
HI Topper: Great post! My question is what signs did Luther have that he was the authority while everyone else was wrong concerning doctrines and teachings of the CC as well as others like Calvin and Zwingli?
 
Is this Satins plan to use Martin; up till than the churches teaching stood; of course not without some friction as usual over the years.

Effects of the reformation:
  1. Difference in religious views (affecting the soul).
  2. Alteration in philosophical thinking (affecting the intellect).
  3. Organization and purpose of the physical world (affecting the will).
a) REFORMATION (dividing Christianity to weaken Divine Revelation).
b) RATIONALISM (doubting that man can rely on Divine Revelation).
c) HUMAN MESSIANISM (asserting that man can rely on himself).
ANON.
:eek:
 
Is this Satins plan to use Martin; up till than the churches teaching stood; of course not without some friction as usual over the years.

Effects of the reformation:
  1. Difference in religious views (affecting the soul).
  2. Alteration in philosophical thinking (affecting the intellect).
  3. Organization and purpose of the physical world (affecting the will).
a) REFORMATION (dividing Christianity to weaken Divine Revelation).
b) RATIONALISM (doubting that man can rely on Divine Revelation).
c) HUMAN MESSIANISM (asserting that man can rely on himself).
ANON.
:eek:
I agree with this!
 
Really? I think a lot of us here have looked at the whole document from the Smalcald article, and, is it the Power of the Pope ( I forgot the official document).
Hi pab,

In fact the name of the document is as follows:

The Formula of Concord - A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, Treatise Compiled by the Theologians Assembled at Smalcald – 1537

“39] Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents.

59] But those who agree with the Pope, and defend his doctrine and [false] services, defile themselves with idolatry and blasphemous opinions, become guilty of the blood of the godly, whom the Pope [and his adherents] persecutes, detract from the glory of God, and hinder the welfare of the Church, because they strengthen errors and crimes to all posterity [in the sight of all the world and to the injury of all descendants].”

I think that another important question is what it is, specifically and exactly, that makes this document ‘authoritative’? What ‘process’ was it subjected to before it received ‘Confessional Status’? Also, do ALL Lutherans hold that this is part of THEIR Confessions?

I would like someday to have an answers to these questions.

God Bless You pab, Topper
 
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