Looking for a good LDS website!

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ben_dy

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Since July I’ve become obsessed with reading about the history and doctrine of the LDS church. “flameburns623” cited a number of books and publications, some that I had read and others, since that time, have read that seemed to present a ‘fair and balanced’ view of LDS history and doctrines and included caveats in regard to some of the material that allowed me to know, beforehand, just which way the books might be leaning. I have to admit that, for the most part, what I have particularly enjoyed reading are the Journal of Discourses (and, in particular, Brigham Young and Orson Pratt), perhaps because there is within a great deal of ‘speculative’ theology and both a credible history along with the development of doctrine. I’ve also enjoyed reading more ‘recent’ Hugh Nibley & Bruce McConkie, and, I am not too terribly ashamed to admit, the Tanners (although I admit that I am influenced here strongly because I had read of them many years ago in connection with Mark Hofmann - and forgery is a ‘personal interest’, yet not something I personally practice!).

Lately, I’ve had to put a curb on spending so much on books: although the local public library which is directly across the street from the local LDS ward meetinghouse/church has a terrific collection of “pro” LDS literature (perhaps donated by church members? I don’t know and haven’t asked) and so I’ve been spending more time searching for free information on the Internet. Now the majority of information I’ve found is decidedly ‘anti-Mormon’ and much of it is hardly worth a glance.

There are a few of the Tanner books online, however, and I’ve read those and have a growing collection of FARMS essays and reviews - but I am beginning to grow disillusioned with FARMS: once respected LDS writers (in the 1980’s and 1990’s) who have since ‘apostatized’ are treated with nothing but ad hominem attacks (and one review of a work by the Tanners accused THEM of using ad hominem attacks because they had referred to a number of ‘pro-Mormons’ as “apologists” - hardly what I would think of as an ad hominem attack) and I have grown increasingly tired of hearing the term “smug” applied to ex-LDS writers who, a decade ago, were leading authorities on one topic or another.

Earlier today I was on the FARMS website and I noticed, on the right of the page, a “most popular” list of articles and downloaded one entitled " Chattanooga Cheapshot, or The Gall of Bitterness" which I found really puzzling - a lengthy " Review of Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Mormonism by John Ankerberg and John Weldon". Now I’m familiar with Ankerberg primarily through Karl Keating and so I had no doubt that the book would be of little to no substance yet now, halfway through reading the book, I have to wonder why so much effort was put into discrediting a publication that seems as intellectually challenging and factual as an anti-Catholic Jack Chick comic. Is Ankerberg’s Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Mormonism the anti-Mormon equivalent of Boettner’s Roman Catholicism? Is that the reason the review of the book so popular on the FARMS website? Even Mr, Keating did not feel it necessary to go to such lengths as Daniel C. Peterson in exposing Roman Catholicism for the ill-informed tome that it is - why does Mr. Peterson go to such lengths to say in 86 (extraordinarily well footnoted) pages what could have been done in two dozen pages? Or is Ankerberg more influential than I think him to be? I had to Google his name to see if he was even still alive (he is, apparently, although late-night, early-morning channel flipping me has not seen his face on television in a long, long time).

So - I have the ‘ant-Mormon’ sites in full force (and although I am sure that there is the possibility that the Tanners are just as anti-Catholic as they are anti-Mormon, the quotations that they site as well as the history seems to check out), I have reservations about FARMS for a number of reasons as they seem to take apologetics to a height of mean-spiritedness at times and unnecessarily attack those who have lost faith - the “FAIR” LDS website, while not officially connected to the LDS church, I don’t think, does seem to be ‘fairer’ than FARMS, and the remainder of the pro-LDS sites seem too ‘clean’ and don’t address genuine issues.

Finding genuine and authentic LDS church doctrine is an entirely different can of worms - you can get some idea from reading The Ensign but it seems more of an LDS ‘Reader’s Digest’ than a publication that asks and answers the ‘tough questions.’

(…continued…)
 
(…continued…)

What I’m looking for, then, may be something that doesn’t really exist - an online resource that answers the tough questions and provides current LDS doctrine in a manner that appeals to faith (not mine, necessarily!) and reason, that doesn’t dismiss problematic past doctrine and deals honestly with LDS history without resorting to ad hominem attacks against those who have lost faith and doesn’t present personal history as hagiography.

There are so many Catholic sites (this being a good example) that offer solid explanation of doctrine while dealing honestly with Church history (which I feel is what apologetics should be) but I’ve not been able to find a like LDS site…

…any suggestions?
 
“I am sure that there is the possibility that the Tanners are just as anti-Catholic as they are anti-Mormon”

Sandra Tanner has guided individuals to the Catholic faith when they show an interest in it. I have first hand knowledge of this. I have sent others to their site that are looking into Christianity but have heard to much bad stuff about the First Church to give it the time needed. It’s all about coming to understand the Nature of God, and then one can begin to see salvation as Mercy given. Sandra understands that salvation is not mandated by what we do or how often we do it. It’s all about allowing Christ to bring us home, a relationship with him, hat he alone has redeemed us. Unless we want to take credit for one good action that we may do, this always makes a mockery out of the Cross, Christ’s death for each and every one of us. In these things lies the meaning of Humility. We as Christians try to give all Glory to God in our daily lives as do the Tanners. When we fail to do so we know where to turn.

www.utlm.org/
 
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ben_dy:
What I’m looking for, then, may be something that doesn’t really exist - an online resource that answers the tough questions and provides current LDS doctrine in a manner that appeals to faith (not mine, necessarily!) and reason, that doesn’t dismiss problematic past doctrine and deals honestly with LDS history without resorting to ad hominem attacks against those who have lost faith and doesn’t present personal history as hagiography.
What you are looking for doesn’t exist–at least as far as the doctrinal or theological aspect of your quest is concerned. “History” is a different matter.

How do I know? Because it cannot exist! LDS theology and doctrine is ultimately that which is revealed in the scriptural canon of the LDS Church, referred to by us as the “standard works” of the Church. Outside it nothing exists–only insofar as it can be affirmed and confirmed by it. If you can understand that, you have your question answered.

amgid
 
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amgid:
What you are looking for doesn’t exist–at least as far as the doctrinal or theological aspect of your quest is concerned. “History” is a different matter.

How do I know? Because it cannot exist! LDS theology and doctrine is ultimately that which is revealed in the scriptural canon of the LDS Church, referred to by us as the “standard works” of the Church. Outside it nothing exists–only insofar as it can be affirmed and confirmed by it. If you can understand that, you have your question answered.

amgid
I was - from frustration in time spent looking - afraid that what I was looking for doesn’t exist but I’m puzzled by your answer that it “cannot exist”. I understand your appeal to the same as that of the sola scriptura protestant possession but I thought (and thought that you thought as well!) that there exists authority in the LDS in the offices of the first presidency, the apostles, and the quorum of the 70 (that’s how my LDS friends - and the truly terrific missionaries explained the situation).

Are you a member of the ‘regular’ LDS church or one that denies authority of current hierarchy (such as we Catholics have the sede vacantist)?
 
That link is great. I was very moved by this mans experience as it was so similar to my own. What an awesome job he does in presenting his journey of faith.
 
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ben_dy:
I was - from frustration in time spent looking - afraid that what I was looking for doesn’t exist but I’m puzzled by your answer that it “cannot exist”. I understand your appeal to the same as that of the sola scriptura protestant possession …
That is not quite true. Our position is not the same as the sola scriptura of Protestantism.
… but I thought (and thought that you thought as well!) that there exists authority in the LDS in the offices of the first presidency, the apostles, and the quorum of the 70 (that’s how my LDS friends - and the truly terrific missionaries explained the situation).
Absolutely so. My assertions does not in any way question or cast doubt on the validity of that authority. If you are unclear about what I meant, I refer you to posts #17 and #32 of the thread called “Can even a ‘true’ prophet have false revelations?” That subject was discussed in other threads as well.
Are you a member of the ‘regular’ LDS church or one that denies authority of current hierarchy (such as we Catholics have the sede vacantist)?
Certainly not! I am a member of the regular LDS Church.

In your original post you had made this statement:
What I’m looking for… {is} an online resource that answers the tough questions and provides current LDS doctrine in a manner that appeals to faith (not mine, necessarily!) and reason, that doesn’t dismiss problematic past doctrine …
So you are looking for a website that provides you with the following three things:
  1. Answers the tough questions.
  2. Provides current LDS doctrine in a manner that appeals to faith and reason.
  3. doesn’t dismiss problematic past doctrine.
Let me briefly respond to each of these points.
  1. I would like to know what you mean by “tough questions”. There is an official LDS website called www.mormon.org, which is designed specifically for investigators. Its aim is to provide answers to the basic questions that an investigator might have about the Church and its beliefs. But I don’t think that that is what you are looking for. That website does not answer any “tough” questions! I don’t want to disappoint you, but in reality there isn’t such a thing as “tough questions”. There are certain things that God has revealed, and many more things that He hasn’t. That which is revealed is in the standard works. There are many parts of the standards works that are ambiguous or difficult to understand. The book of Isaiah, for example, is difficult for most people to understand. But it is not the policy of the authorities of the Church to provide a detailed, running commentary on every scriptural ambiguity. The General Authorities counsel Church members to study the scriptures for themselves, and obtain the Spirit of the Lord for themselves to understand its deeper meanings. Just out of curiosity, I would like to know what your “tough questions” are. There are several LDS on this board who are well informed, and they can probably provide a satisfactory answer to most of your questions.
  2. Next, you are looking for something that “provides current LDS doctrine in a manner that appeals to faith and reason”. Again, the above official LDS website is designed basically to do that. If you want a bigger resource, the Church publishes a book called Gospel Principles which is designed to teach the gospel to investigators. You can obtain a copy from your LDS friends and missionaries, or order it direct from the LDS distribution centre. But somehow I don’t think that is what you are looking for. Ultimately there is only one resource that can answer that requirement—it is called the Book of Mormon! If you ignore that, you are looking beyond the mark.
  3. And lastly, you are looking for something that “does not dismiss problematic past doctrine”. That is itself a “problematic” statement. All doctrine, be it past or present, is true LDS doctrine if it can be affirmed by LDS scripture, is speculation if it cannot, and is false if it contradicts it. That is the bottom line for resolving “problematic past doctrine”. Now, just out of curiosity, I like to know what are the “problematic past doctrines” that you are concerned about.
amgid
 
If you want a good website, go to the official ones:

mormon.org
This website is for those seeking answers to what Mormonism is about.

AND

lds.org
Very in-depth topics (mostly for members).

The best way to understand a religion is to research that religion’s doctrine, not another religion’s doctrine on the religion. For example, research Mormonism, not what the Catholic church believes about Mormons.

If something about the church sounds strange to you, ask more than one member because then you will have a more rounded understanding of what they believe. All of this ought to be common sense. It’s just the same as researching any other topic. We go to the source.
 
Also, when researching tough questions, utilize the search functions at lds.org to find all sorts of subjects on the topics. The answers you are looking for should not be that hard to find. All the official doctrine of the church is included within the website.
 
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isaac.madsen:
If you want a good website, go to the official ones:

mormon.org
This website is for those seeking answers to what Mormonism is about.

AND

lds.org
Very in-depth topics (mostly for members).

The best way to understand a religion is to research that religion’s doctrine, not another religion’s doctrine on the religion. For example, research Mormonism, not what the Catholic church believes about Mormons.

If something about the church sounds strange to you, ask more than one member because then you will have a more rounded understanding of what they believe. All of this ought to be common sense. It’s just the same as researching any other topic. We go to the source.
herein lies the problem for most here. Just what is “the source”. None of those websites proclaims to be doctrinally authoratative. As you implied asking members will result in a “range” of answers. To study Catholic doctrine you can read the catechism. It will tell you the official answer. There is no LDS equivalent. LDS debate amongst themselves which doctrines that were proclaimed as doctrine by LDS prophets are actually “doctrine” and not speculation.

I have told by many LDS here that many things that are in current LDS lesson manuals are not doctrine. Do you at least see where confusion is possible in the absence of a “catechism”?
 
There are certain texts that are described as doctrine within our church. These include the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, the Bible, and the Ensign magazines (which include the current principles, which are defined as the way Doctrine applies to our current lives). Any other information you might find is considered speculation.

So why don’t we have a “catechism” per se? We believe in personal revelation, that God can answer our questions if we only ask. Thus, I can’t tell you that there is one all-encompassing doctrine of the church. Each member finds his/her own answers to questions, with the help of all the resources available (especially personal prayer). We make everything personal. What always amazes me is the distinct similarities between each member’s answers for themselves.
 
In LDS history all of these sources you mentioned have changed over time. JST is used in SOME cases to redefine what is in the Bible. The BoM has been edited and revised at various times in such a way as to change the meaning of some passages. The D&C has probably undergone the most changes and has in fact changed important practices. The PoGP has seen it’s share of changes as well. The Ensign is only doctrinally significant for 6 months at a time. At one time the Journal of Discourses was considered equal to the standard works and is still quoted from in many current LDS lesson manuals. Newer prophets have called some of the teachings of past prophets outright false doctrine. The experience on this forum is different than what you state about members having such similar doctrinal positions.

I recognize the benefit of personal revelation through study and prayer. It is exactly that which has brought me into the Catholic church. In practice I have not seen such doctrinal freedom as you described as being the actual practice of the LDS church. There seems to be a very clear directive that what the current prophet says IS the doctrine of the church, regardless of what past prophets or even canonized scripture stated in the past.
 
The reason for this is that we believe our prophet today (as Christ’s spokesman) can relate the principles of doctrine as it is applied in our day. Satan attacks our world with different problems that he did in days of old. The MOST IMPORTANT principles are those that come from the mouth of our living prophet.

For example, the issue of pornography is a major difference between our day and that of the early church. Young plowboys back then had no idea of the existence of such a thing. However, it is rampant in our society today. Immorality is what led to the fall of the Romans and the Greeks. This is why it is such a major concern in our day. Where is our society going? That is why the prophet is so important.

Also, in our religion, Doctrine can be defined as the MOST BASIC of beliefs. The Articles of Faith and (of course) the Ten Commandments are, in essence, our Doctrine. Principles can be defined as the application of Doctrine to our present situations. Does this make more sense?
 
I hear what you are saying and understand your view. I don’t agree that is how God presides over his church. Paul’s letter to the Hebrews best defines my views on this. (in comparison to LDS doctrine at least) I think that if you look at your own examples of the Greeks and Romans you will find that basic human nature has not changes so much and that we pretty much deal with the same basic problems that we always have. The commercials are new, the packaging sometimes changes but the sins and temptations are the same old Satan.
 
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isaac.madsen:
For example, the issue of pornography is a major difference between our day and that of the early church. Young plowboys back then had no idea of the existence of such a thing. However, it is rampant in our society today. Immorality is what led to the fall of the Romans and the Greeks. This is why it is such a major concern in our day. Where is our society going? That is why the prophet is so important.
Isaac,
Do Mormons really need a prophet to tell them that pornography is wrong?
 
quote=ben_dy

What I’m looking for, then, may be something that doesn’t really exist - an online resource that answers the tough questions and provides current LDS doctrine in a manner that appeals to faith (not mine, necessarily!) and reason, that doesn’t dismiss problematic past doctrine and deals honestly with LDS history without resorting to ad hominem attacks against those who have lost faith and doesn’t present personal history as hagiography.

There are so many Catholic sites (this being a good example) that offer solid explanation of doctrine while dealing honestly with Church history (which I feel is what apologetics should be) but I’ve not been able to find a like LDS site…

…any suggestions?
[/quote]

Apologetics organizations seldom have fully"official" standing but there are a number of websites available to peruse. Have you seen all of these?

deseretbook.com/

lds.org/

lds.org/gospellibrary/0,5082,4-1,00.html

mormon.org/

lightplanet.com/response/answers/contents.htm

fairlds.org/

lightplanet.com/response/index.shtml

mormon-defense-books.com/

whyprophets.com/index.htm

signaturebooks.com/

dialoguejournal.com/

sunstoneonline.com/

meridianmagazine.com/

pub26.ezboard.com/bpacumenispages

shields-research.org/

farms.byu.edu/

And of course a few RLDS/Community of Christ resources:

cofchrist.org/

tempforum.cybercongregation.net/

That oughta hold you awhile, y’think?
 
Sadly, there are some who have been perverted by the ways of man. This is something that is not only a problem in Mormonism. It is a problem in any religion. The prophet is here to reinforce and expand on what God has told us before. That has always been the calling of prophets. The prophets teach us correct principles, and we are to govern ourselves. This has always been the way of Christ’s church.

May God be with us all,

Isaac Madsen
 
Hebrews chapter 1:

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

I think this tells us that the way changed when Christ came down.
 
Oh, certainly they did change when Christ came down, but what of when Christ returned to heaven? His work must be continued, and the charge was given to his apostles, but they were all killed or banished and their works fell into oblivion, except for the things continued by those good men who continued to follow in the footsteps of Christ, to their persecution and ridicule. I have a great respect for these men, and for the Catholic church because of what it has come to represent, but I do believe that some elements of Christ’s church were left out. After all, as Paul stated, “…there were also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books which should be written” (John 21:25).
 
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