Looking for a "proof" of God's existence?

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I truly do not understand the reverence with which he is held by some. For his era I’m sure that his thoughts sounded deep, but they have not held up well. IMHO
They have held up very well … just not for you. 😉

More from Aquinas:

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”

“The things that we love tell us what we are.”

“Man cannot live without joy; therefore when he is deprived of true spiritual joys it is necessary that he become addicted to carnal pleasures.”
 
I was sick yesterday and lost track of how the thread was going. Apparently it hasn’t been good too well. 🤷

From post 28
Second, you should read S.T., Part 1, Ques 46, Art. 2, which reads in part, " I answer that, By faith alone do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not always exist, as was said above of the mystery of the Trinity (Question [32], Article [1]). The reason of this is that the newness of the world cannot be demonstrated on the part of the world itself. For the principle of demonstration is the essence of a thing. Now everything according to its species is abstracted from “here” and “now”; whence it is said that universals are everywhere and always. Hence it cannot be demonstrated that man, or heaven, or a stone were not always.
Really, now! :bigyikes: This is very disappointing. :o
Right there in Part 1, Ques 46, Art 1, Aquinas says:
newadvent.org/summa/1046.htm#article1

**I answer that, Nothing except God can be eternal. ** 😃 👍

In Article 2 which you quoted, Aquinas points out that universe’s age cannot be scientifically proven or demonstrated by the universe itself. But he has already explained that logic tells us the universe can’t be eternal.

Likewise,
earlier,
in Q 2, Art 1,
he says God’s existence is not self-evident, that is, we can’t prove it scientifically by direct observation of God himself,
but in Q 2 Art 2 he says God’s existence can be demonstrated by his effects, that is the universe, which could not exist without him.
 
I was sick yesterday and lost track of how the thread was going. Apparently it hasn’t been good too well. 🤷

From post 28

Really, now! :bigyikes: This is very disappointing. :o
Right there in Part 1, Ques 46, Art 1, Aquinas says:
newadvent.org/summa/1046.htm#article1

**I answer that, Nothing except God can be eternal. ** 😃 👍

In Article 2 which you quoted, Aquinas points out that universe’s age cannot be scientifically proven or demonstrated by the universe itself. But he has already explained that logic tells us the universe can’t be eternal.

Likewise,
earlier,
in Q 2, Art 1,
he says God’s existence is not self-evident, that is, we can’t prove it scientifically by direct observation of God himself,
but in Q 2 Art 2 he says God’s existence can be demonstrated by his effects, that is the universe, which could not exist without him.
The question was not whether or not we could prove that God exists, it was whether or not we could demonstrate from reason that the universe had a beginning. On the latter point Thomas’ opinion was that we could not and that we must accept it on Faith only. That is why the Five Ways are based on the assumption that the universe always existed. He wanted to show that whether or not the universe always existed, we could still prove that God existed based on observation of the movement and activity present in the universe.

Linus2nd
 
They have held up very well … just not for you. 😉

More from Aquinas:

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”

“The things that we love tell us what we are.”

“Man cannot live without joy; therefore when he is deprived of true spiritual joys it is necessary that he become addicted to carnal pleasures.”
Those are some of his good ones.
 
Agreed.
And this man is talking in circles and circles…there’s not one declaration he makes that makes sense or is based on anything solid.

.
Sweeping statements are seldom accurate…

BTW, could we get back to the original question: Can science prove God’s existence?
 
Sweeping statements are seldom accurate…

BTW, could we get back to the original question: Can science prove God’s existence?
It can point to God but it can’t “prove” God exists like it can “prove” certain things about the natural world via equations/observations. At the same time it can’t “disprove” God either.
 
Sweeping statements are seldom accurate…

BTW, could we get back to the original question: Can science prove God’s existence?
It would seem that science, concerned as it is with observable and contingent phenomena could not muster sufficient epistemic “certainty” to ground a “proof” for God’s existence.

Science deals with conditional causation, so there seems to be an inherent impotency within the methods of science itself to move from conditionally “true” to certainly or absolutely “true.”

I think Aquinas gets around this inherent shortcoming by building a “metaphysic” around the principles that can reasonably be known to be true from the formal structure of physical reality around us. In other words, our intelligent faculty can arrive at the grounding truths of physical reality by a process of reasoning.

The process looks something like this:
  1. Observing physical reality allows us to build a “tentative” understanding of physical reality by a process of inductive reasoning. We move from the specific to the general; from the concrete to the abstract.
  2. The intellect constructs a plausible “metaphysic” concerning reality that can be tested by observation, correlation and logical consistency.
  3. A great degree of reasonable certainty is possible because the “metaphysic,” if properly constructed, will provide further insight into reality. This insight, if it bears out serves to further confirm the metaphysic.
This isn’t circular reasoning, as some on the thread have contended, it is confirmation and corroboration, which are hallmarks of good science.

Thomistic metaphysics have not been debunked by science, since, in large part, his metaphysics are formal principles. Certainly the observable “physics” that led Aquinas and Aristotle before him to formulate their metaphysics have largely been superceded, but that does not mean the consistency of the causal order has changed. Their observations regarding the “details” of physics have been found inadequate, but that, in itself, does not mean their conclusions are wrong.

There are enough brilliant Thomistic and Aristotelian philosophers around today that do, in fact, demonstrate the depth of Thomas’ thinking is quite defensible.
 
It can point to God but it can’t “prove” God exists like it can “prove” certain things about the natural world via equations/observations. At the same time it can’t “disprove” God either.
I do think that a kind of “symmetrical” proof for God’s existence can be had.

If we start from the concept of “necessary being,” we can draw an either/or inference from that concept alone.

Either “necessary being” is a logically consistent concept or, like square triangle, it is an incoherent idea.

It would be nonsense to say, “A necessary being is possible.” In order for the concept of “necessary being” to be a logically consistent one any necessary being would HAVE TO exist, necessarily. That is what “necessary being” essentially means. A necessary being can not not exist - it must exist, necessarily.

The only logical “out” here is to show that “necessary being” is an incoherent idea - that the idea of necessary being is logically untenable.

This is where the “symmetrical aspect” of the argument comes in.

All contingent or merely “possible” beings CAN NOT exist. Their existence is distinct from their essence. We can fully describe a unicorn in terms of its “whatness,” but leave open the question of whether it actually exists. This is true for all contingent beings. Whether they exist or not is fundamentally a different question from what they are.

The problem is that if all “beings” are contingent then none can explain why they do, in fact, exist or, for that matter, why anything exists. The explanation for their existence is not to be found in “what” they are because what they are does not sufficiently explain why they are.

In order to explain why anything exists instead of nothing, the principle of sufficient reason requires that “something” that does exist must sufficiently account for its own existence and the existence of all other contingent things that don’t explain their own existence. There must be something that “exists” necessarily as an aspect merely of what it is, otherwise the explanation of why things do, in fact, exist is left unanswered.

That “something” must be “existence itself” or the subsistent act of being itself. This is not any particular being, but Being Itself.

Since to explain the existence of anything at all requires that whatever the sufficient explanation is, it must exist necessarily of its own essence, then “necessary being” is not only a logical possibility but a logical requirement for explaining the existence of contingent beings that do not and cannot explain their own existence.

Since “necessary being” is not only logically coherent but a logical requirement by the principle of sufficient reason and since “necessary being,” by definition, can not NOT exist, therefore we have a symmetrical “proof” for the existence of “necessary being.”

From here we can move to unpack the “traits” that would be requisite for any BEING to BE necessary and at the same time have what it takes to account for all the contingent existents in the known universe.

Once we’re done, the characteristics of the God of classical theism would seem very plausible in terms of accounting for what “necessary being” would require. Omnipotence and omniscience would seem unarguably necessary aspects.

Aquinas does a remarkable job with the unpacking of what “necessary being” entails starting with “ipsum esse subsistens.”

To dismiss Aquinas as “arguing in circles” is simply a misguided and superficial treatment of his work and, perhaps, misinterpreting symmetry for circularity.
 
Sweeping statements are seldom accurate…

BTW, could we get back to the original question: Can science prove God’s existence?
But that was not the original question. The question simply was , " is there any proof for the existence of God? ( to paraphrase )." Strictly speaking, science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. However, the philosophies of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas can prove the existence of God. But the evidential power of the proofs depend on how much one understands about their philosophies. And I can truthfully say that no one, with one possible exception, in the history of this forum has demonstrated that they understand or even care to understand the philosophies of these two men. For their proofs are at the summat of a thousand pages of philosophy.

Do not be dismayed at hostile, heckling voices from the peanut gallery. The truth always draws hecklers, for ignorance and untruth cannot stand the light of truth.

Linus2nd
 
I do think that a kind of “symmetrical” proof for God’s existence can be had.

If we start from the concept of “necessary being,” we can draw an either/or inference from that concept alone.

Either “necessary being” is a logically consistent concept or, like square triangle, it is an incoherent idea.

It would be nonsense to say, “A necessary being is possible.” In order for the concept of “necessary being” to be a logically consistent one any necessary being would HAVE TO exist, necessarily. That is what “necessary being” essentially means. A necessary being can not not exist - it must exist, necessarily.

The only logical “out” here is to show that “necessary being” is an incoherent idea - that the idea of necessary being is logically untenable.

This is where the “symmetrical aspect” of the argument comes in.

All contingent or merely “possible” beings CAN NOT exist. Their existence is distinct from their essence. We can fully describe a unicorn in terms of its “whatness,” but leave open the question of whether it actually exists. This is true for all contingent beings. Whether they exist or not is fundamentally a different question from what they are.

The problem is that if all “beings” are contingent then none can explain why they do, in fact, exist or, for that matter, why anything exists. The explanation for their existence is not to be found in “what” they are because what they are does not sufficiently explain why they are.

In order to explain why anything exists instead of nothing, the principle of sufficient reason requires that “something” that does exist must sufficiently account for its own existence and the existence of all other contingent things that don’t explain their own existence. There must be something that “exists” necessarily as an aspect merely of what it is, otherwise the explanation of why things do, in fact, exist is left unanswered.

That “something” must be “existence itself” or the subsistent act of being itself. This is not any particular being, but Being Itself.

Since to explain the existence of anything at all requires that whatever the sufficient explanation is, it must exist necessarily of its own essence, then “necessary being” is not only a logical possibility but a logical requirement for explaining the existence of contingent beings that do not and cannot explain their own existence.

Since “necessary being” is not only logically coherent but a logical requirement by the principle of sufficient reason and since “necessary being,” by definition, can not NOT exist, therefore we have a symmetrical “proof” for the existence of “necessary being.”

From here we can move to unpack the “traits” that would be requisite for any BEING to BE necessary and at the same time have what it takes to account for all the contingent existents in the known universe.

Once we’re done, the characteristics of the God of classical theism would seem very plausible in terms of accounting for what “necessary being” would require. Omnipotence and omniscience would seem unarguably necessary aspects.

Aquinas does a remarkable job with the unpacking of what “necessary being” entails starting with “ipsum esse subsistens.”

To dismiss Aquinas as “arguing in circles” is simply a misguided and superficial treatment of his work and, perhaps, misinterpreting symmetry for circularity.
But why does the “necessary being” need to be God? Why can’t matter or energy or whatever just always “be” and therefore are necessary? Because the motion of matter shows why it can’t be eternal without God. But if we go solely off of their existing I don’t see why matter technically can’t be necessary.

I wasn’t the one claiming Aquinas argues in circles either. In fact I accept his argument from motion and think he is absolutely brilliant. But since you brought up contingency, which I don’t fully understand why it works, I thought I’d ask. 🤷
 
But why does the “necessary being” need to be God? Why can’t matter or energy or whatever just always “be” and therefore are necessary? Because the motion of matter shows why it can’t be eternal without God. But if we go solely off of their existing I don’t see why matter technically can’t be necessary.

I wasn’t the one claiming Aquinas argues in circles either. In fact I accept his argument from motion and think he is absolutely brilliant. But since you brought up contingency, which I don’t fully understand why it works, I thought I’d ask. 🤷
I realize it wasn’t you who claimed Aquinas argued in circles. It was a general point to counter claims that he does.

What reason is there for thinking either matter or energy can be necessary? Big Bang cosmology seems to imply that matter, energy, space-time had a beginning. Unless we have a plausible reason for thinking either pre-existed the Big Bang they seem to be ruled out.

Secondly, the existence of both matter and energy is not logically essential. Matter and energy could conceivably “not exist,” Neither exist necessarily. There is no reason to think they must.
 
Can science prove God’s existence?
Was that the original question? I think the OP wondered about “proof” but she didn’t specify science, but…

I think it’s possible for science to “prove” if God exists…if God would actually appear and/or do something concrete, like people think he did 2-3000 years ago.

if someone today turned water into wine or came back from the dead and ate dinner or parted a sea or ascended to heaven in front of our eyes or gave birth as a virgin or walked on water or if a donkey talked or if one fish fed thousands (we could really, really use this one in countries where a child dies of starvation every five seconds) or if the sun stopped moving or even…even…if he just appeared in the sky for one minute and said “I am God” in a big, booming voice that sounds like Charlton Heston.

We’d probably be able to obtain enough evidence to convince a lot of people.

.
You mention two interesting aspects to the entire scenario…time and location. Why 2,000 years ago and why the Middle East? Why not Italy or China, both larger civilizations than the Middle East? Why not today?
Then comes the question, why did the visits and communication stop? As an omniscient being, God knew that his Chosen people would largely reject his son, yet chose a nation that was peopled primarily by Jews, had His Son born and raised in a Jewish family and so on. These are important issues to look at when trying to understand the nature of God or the veracity of the sources…
 
Can science prove God’s existence?
Was that the original question? I think the OP wondered about “proof” but she didn’t specify science, but…

I think it’s possible for science to “prove” if God exists…if God would actually appear and/or do something concrete, like people think he did 2-3000 years ago.

if someone today turned water into wine or came back from the dead and ate dinner or parted a sea or ascended to heaven in front of our eyes or gave birth as a virgin or walked on water or if a donkey talked or if one fish fed thousands (we could really, really use this one in countries where a child dies of starvation every five seconds) or if the sun stopped moving or even…even…if he just appeared in the sky for one minute and said “I am God” in a big, booming voice that sounds like Charlton Heston.

We’d probably be able to obtain enough evidence to convince a lot of people.

.
Anyone who is determined not to believe will attribute any such events to mass hallucination. To demand incontrovertible proof is itself a sign of unwillingness to accept the reality of truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love which are sufficient evidence that materialism is not only false but evil.
But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’"
Luke 15:31
 
I have been trying to “prove” myself the existence of God for most of my lifetime. This video helped me to see the error of my way and pointed me in a different direction.
I thought that many on this Forum might find this info useful:

youtube.com/watch?v=1zMf_8hkCdc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Let me know what you think.
Reminds me of a talk Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen did on the “Glories of Science”. You can watch that on this site: bishopsheentoday.com/books-videos/school-of-sheen-video-library/video-1/

It will be the last video on the far right, fourth row, titled “Glories of Science (part 1,2,and 3).”
 
Can science prove God’s existence?
Was that the original question? I think the OP wondered about “proof” but she didn’t specify science, but…

I think it’s possible for science to “prove” if God exists…if God would actually appear and/or do something concrete, like people think he did 2-3000 years ago.

if someone today turned water into wine or came back from the dead and ate dinner or parted a sea or ascended to heaven in front of our eyes or gave birth as a virgin or walked on water or if a donkey talked or if one fish fed thousands (we could really, really use this one in countries where a child dies of starvation every five seconds) or if the sun stopped moving or even…even…if he just appeared in the sky for one minute and said “I am God” in a big, booming voice that sounds like Charlton Heston.

We’d probably be able to obtain enough evidence to convince a lot of people.

.
God is still healing people and performing miracles, most of which athiests still deny and are skeptical of so I fail to see how your proposition is going to change this fact. Do you really think the only people who deny the existence of God are those who do not know God? Do you really believe the knowledge of God is going to be something which is going to automatically give you a conversion of heart?

Furthermore you would need to explaine why God would be obligated to perform miracles according to your whims if we have the testimony of credible witnesses? Can you discredit the witnesses?
Yes…why not a place where most people could read and write (China, yes?) and someone would have written down whatever happened right away instead of decades and decades later. That would have been more…efficient.
Coming to Israel which is close to Alexandria, the center of the world for education at that time, was not good enough for you? Also you assume they would have written it down right away.
And why not today, or anymore. Why not a century ago…or five centuries ago…or ten centuries ago…or 15 centuries ago.
Why today or any of the other times you’ve listed? What makes them better than back then?
 
If strong facts were staring Atheists in the face, they would be open to them and admit they were wrong.

They are not demanding “incontrovertible” proof…just something more than passed-along stories from people 2000 years ago–most of whom we don’t even know who they are.
I don’t agree with this. No atheist has an open mind to the possibility of God. Any proof brought to him he would discredit by one means or another. The “proof” would be lies, or optical illusions, or some explainable event (a miracle) that could be explained in the future by science, etc. The reason they don’t have open minds is that they don’t have open hearts.

Our God is a hidden God. That is because he is Light itself. (“The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness grasps it not”) Just as you cannot stare at the sun without going blind, you cannot see God. Yet the sun reflects light everywhere around us, just as God reflects his glory in all creation.
 
They are not demanding “incontrovertible” proof…just something more than passed-along stories from people 2000 years ago–most of whom we don’t even know who they are.

Materialism is different than someone wanting to be rational and have some facts before they believe something that is invisible.
Ok, lets go with this. God manifests Himself (again) to you (Charlton Heston voice and all) and points you in the direction of His Church; the Catholic Church.

What do you do next?
 
Can science prove God’s existence?
Was that the original question? I think the OP wondered about “proof” but she didn’t specify science, but…

I think it’s possible for science to “prove” if God exists…if God would actually appear and/or do something concrete, like people think he did 2-3000 years ago.

if someone today turned water into wine or came back from the dead and ate dinner or parted a sea or ascended to heaven in front of our eyes or gave birth as a virgin or walked on water or if a donkey talked or if one fish fed thousands (we could really, really use this one in countries where a child dies of starvation every five seconds) or if the sun stopped moving or even…even…if he just appeared in the sky for one minute and said “I am God” in a big, booming voice that sounds like Charlton Heston.

We’d probably be able to obtain enough evidence to convince a lot of people.

.
So the Apostles were untrustworthy then, even though they claim to have witnessed all of these things?

The evidence is there. The question is whether you accept it as evidence and why anyone would not.
 
. . . The reason they don’t have open minds is that they don’t have open hearts. . .
👍
The photos, the DNA, the giant face in the sky would lead them in the wrong direction, away from the Source of all that exists, all the beauty and goodness, the living Truth, Whom through the Church, we come to know and worship as our Creator, our Redeemer and Sanctifier: the one true God. It is all quite visible now; a Sci-Fi Blockbuster version of reality would just give people the wrong message.
 
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