Looking for an appropriate term or phrase

[peeteyg]

I have a question about our Brothers in Christ who may be protestant. I consider them to be our brothers in christ but in an imperfect way. I don’t like the way I am phrasing this and I am looking at a way to demonstrate that they are not in communion with the church but are heading in the right direction but falling short somehow. What is the best way for a Catholic to describe the state of a Protestant in regards to their state of being as it relates to the Catholic church?

 

[jpjd]

Often used is the term “our separated brothers and sisters in Christ”.

 

[Acolythus_sum]

Also “heretic”. (for those who have changed their beliefs, not those born in error)

 

[joandarc2008]

Vatican II defines Protestant communities not as Churches but as ecclesial communities. Pope Benedict XVI gives a good explanation of this on page 93-94 of light of the world it goes as this (please excuse any typos on my behalf):

"The word “ecclesial community” is a term employed by the Second Vatican Council. the Council applied a very simple rule in these matters: A Church in the proper sense as we understand it, where the episcopal office, as the sacramental expression of apostolic succession, is present - which also implies the existence of the Eucharist as a Sacrament that is dispensed by the Bishop and by the priest.If this is not the case then we are dealing with the emergence of another model, a new way of understanding what a Church is, which at Vatican II we designated “ecclesial community.” The word was intended to indicate that such communities embody a different mode of being a church.As they themselves insist it is precisely not the same mode in which the Churches of the great tradition of antiquity are Churches, but is based on a new understanding, according to which a church consists, not in the institution, but in the dynamism of the Word that gathers people into the congregation.

The term, then, is an attempt to capture what is distinctive about Protestant Christianity and to give it a positive expression. We can always keep trying to find better terms but the basic distinction is legitimate indeed, it is a fact even from a purely historical point of view.

Apart from that, it is worth stressing again that the ecclesial situation again differs greatly from one Protestant community to another. They define themselves differently even among themselves, so that we cannot speak of the Protestant Church. The key point is that Protestantism has, as it were, shifted the accent of Christianity and that we are trying to understand this, to acknowledge on another as Christians, and to join in service as Christians.

 

[Warrenton]

“Protestant friends.”

 

[cooterhein]

Also “heretic”. (for those who have changed their beliefs, not those born in error)

15 million of them in the US alone! :extrahappy:

 

[beth40n2]

Catholics have the “fullness” of the faith. Our protestant friends have partial knowlege of what God has for us. They are our seperated brethern as they seperated themselves during the Reformation.

 

[peeteyg]

Would we refer to their churches as Deficient as they do not have the seven Sacraments or apostolic succession?

 

[Timothy17]

Catholic Church to Protestant leaders before Vatican II,

"Varus, give me back my legions!" *

Catholic Church after Vatican II,

What His Holiness says Vatican II said.

** The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest [Protestant Reformation] (described as … the Varian disaster by Roman [Catholic] historians) … took place… **when an alliance of Germanic [Protestant] tribes ** … ambushed and destroyed three Roman [Catholic] legions [Germany, England and the Netherlands], along with their auxiliaries [colonies], led by … Varus [Martin Luther].

Despite numerous successful campaigns and raids by the Roman [Catholic] army over the Rhine in the years after the battle [Counter-Reformation], the Romans were to make no more concerted attempts to conquer and permanently hold Germania beyond the river [Tiber]. *


Pax,
Tim

 

[jericho777]

Wow there isn’t a lot of love here! Well I guess I would be a heretic according to your definition. I’m really glad Jesus has shown me grace and mercy apart from you all!

 

[Timothy17]

Wow there isn’t a lot of love here!

Oh, sure there is

Well I guess I would be a heretic according to your definition.

You said it. But really, you were born and raised a Catholic and then denounced Catholicism by asserting falsehoods, usurping authority and doing all sorts of nasty things in regards to the Faith ?

I’m really glad Jesus has shown me grace and mercy apart from you all!

What makes you believe He has not shown us the same Grace and Mercy ? He has quite mercifully sustained His Church through 2,000 years of turbulent history, surely this is a Grace.

Pax,
Tim

 

[Radical]

I have a question about our Brothers in Christ who may be protestant. I consider them to be our brothers in christ but in an imperfect way. I don’t like the way I am phrasing this and I am looking at a way to demonstrate that they are not in communion with the church but are heading in the right direction but falling short somehow. What is the best way for a Catholic to describe the state of a Protestant in regards to their state of being as it relates to the Catholic church?

Label them as you would have them label you…

 

[jericho777]

Oh, sure there is

You said it. But really, you were born and raised a Catholic and then denounced Catholicism by asserting falsehoods, usurping authority and doing all sorts of nasty things in regards to the Faith ?

What makes you believe He has not shown us the same Grace and Mercy ? He has quite mercifully sustained His Church through 2,000 years of turbulent history, surely this is a Grace.

Pax,
Tim

Well I’m not feelin’ it anyway.

I know I’m in good company because they said the same thing about Jesus.

I wasn’t talking about you. I was saying He is showing me grace and mercy despite what you all are saying about me.

 

[cooterhein]

You know, most of us don’t believe your priesthood was established by God, or that they are actually doing the work of a priest, which is to re-present Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf. Since we don’t believe either of these things, it makes very little sense for us to call your guys “priests.”

But how often do you see Protestants talk about your priests in this way? How often do you see someone say “They are not actually Priests, we do the courtesy of referring to them as such in general parlance but they are not Priests in the same manner as priests of Israel who were actually appointed by God as mediators and given specific tasks to carry out”?

That is what we actually believe, and that is what we actually do, but we don’t make a point of stating the un-stated every time the topic comes up. If we did…well, you’d probably think that was pretty rude.

And you know what? You’d be right.

 

[PRmerger]

But how often do you see Protestants talk about your priests in this way? How often do you see someone say “They are not actually Priests, we do the courtesy of referring to them as such in general parlance but they are not Priests in the same manner as priests of Israel who were actually appointed by God as mediators and given specific tasks to carry out”?

It happens quite a bit, actually, cooterhein.

Let’s see if I can find some references… :coffeeread:

How 'bout here?

And here?

And here?

Pretty rude indeed! :sad_yes:

 

[cooterhein]

It happens quite a bit, actually, cooterhein.

Let’s see if I can find some references… :coffeeread:

How 'bout here?

And here?

And here?

Pretty rude indeed! :sad_yes:

And what do we refer to “priests” as besides “priests”? You refer to our churches as “ecclesial communities” instead of what we call them, which is “Christian churches.” You might even refer to us as “separated brethren” or “heretic/schismatic” (if it’s an ex-Catholic) instead of Christians, which is what we call ourselves, or “brothers and sisters,” which is what we call each other.

Those are the monikers that you’ve attached to us. What words have we invented in order to refer to your priests, other than just calling them “priests”?

 

[PRmerger]

And what do we refer to “priests” as besides “priests”? You refer to our churches as “ecclesial communities” instead of what we call them, which is “Christian churches.” You might even refer to us as “separated brethren” or “heretic/schismatic” (if it’s an ex-Catholic) instead of Christians, which is what we call ourselves, or “brothers and sisters,” which is what we call each other.

Those are the monikers that you’ve attached to us. What words have we invented in order to refer to your priests, other than just calling them “priests”?

Fair enough.

I didn’t understand that your objection was to nomenclature.

I really couldn’t care less about monikers, as it pertains to church or the priesthood.

 

[cooterhein]

Fair enough.

I didn’t understand that your objection was to nomenclature.

I really couldn’t care less about monikers, as it pertains to church or the priesthood.

You’re fortunate, in that you don’t have to care about special monikers. We don’t have any for you. Even the most viscious of anti-Catholics will refer to you as “Catholics” in order to indicate who he’s talking about. And your priests are just “priests.” If we want to get more specific, we’ll say “Catholic priests.”

I suspect that you would care just a little bit if anti-Catholics successfully introduced Catholic-oriented nomenclature from a specifically Protestant POV in order to say things about you that you don’t believe are true. You would feel that you have the right to say who you are.

 

[joandarc2008]

And what do we refer to “priests” as besides “priests”? You refer to our churches as “ecclesial communities” instead of what we call them, which is “Christian churches.” You might even refer to us as “separated brethren” or “heretic/schismatic” (if it’s an ex-Catholic) instead of Christians, which is what we call ourselves, or “brothers and sisters,” which is what we call each other.

Those are the monikers that you’ve attached to us. What words have we invented in order to refer to your priests, other than just calling them “priests”?

But when a Church is defined as it is and Protestants themselves wish to redefine the Eucharist than it is not we who are not calling Protestants Churches - it is out of respect for what you believe. Did you not read all of that statement - it was meant as a positive inclusive statement of Christian community focused on gathering of the Word of God - the Mass which the Anglican Church (while Protestant would still meet the definition of Church) has still respects the Eucharist and all other parts of this definition.

Besides how inclusive are sects of Protestantism that refer to the Church as the Whore of Babylon and disrespect the Blessed Virgin assuming they understand Catholic doctrine without actually asking.

 

[peeteyg]

Jharek, you are both a wise and learned individual. Your last post encapsulated what I have been trying to grasp for. I respect the Human Person from conception to natural death. I also respect the indivdual for their beliefs and non beliefs. When we are in the the arena of Christianity and what represents longly held Orthodox beliefs, I try to be charitable. I also, knowing the absolute history of the church and her theology and doctrines, have a difficult time with putting people who believe in god and jesus (the whole lot of them) in their appropiate cubby hole. It is glaringly apparent to me that other than Gnostic sects that existed in Antiquity, who the church ferreted out, there is absolutely no evidence of Protestant Theology or the like before the 1500’s. Faced with an overwhelming abundance of evidence to support the Catholic Church being the church instituted by Jesus, we are still charitible and refer to their places of worship as churches, but not in the proper sense of the word. I even had my best friend (Protestant Baptist) tell me he doesn’t care when or by whom his belief was started it is what he believes !