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Baby_girl_1021 said:
Why do you say " obedience to Peter"? He was just a HUMAN man, a disciple who loved and followed Jesus
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We follow Peter, because, we believe that while the Bible is a wonderful tool, and is infallible in teachings of morality and the way to heaven. It is not the only source of information that Jesus intended his disciples to use. In fact, he never even told his disciples to write a book, he only instructed them to follow everything he commanded them. As I heard someone else say, if the founders of the United States where smart enough to realize that they couldn’t just leave the constitution for everyone to read and figure out on there own, but instead setup a ruling authority to be the final interpreter of it (The Supreme Court), would not the Lord Almighty in his infant wisdom have been smart enough to do the same thing. And as you pointed out there are now over 30,000 different denominations that all claim to have the real truth they can’t all be right. And we believe Biblically that it is clear that Jesus did indeed choose Peter (and his successors) to be that final ruling body. As for where we get that from:
#1.) Jesus told Simon you are Peter (which means Rock) and on this Rock I will build my Church.
#2.) Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, and while that doesn’t always have great meaning in todays world, it did to the people of Jesus’s time. When a king went off to war, he always gave they keys to the kingdom to the next in line, and he was them in charge of the kingdom while the King was gone.
#3.) Jesus told Peter what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. And that time, the ability to bind and loose meant the ability to set rules.
#4.) While be believe that there is strong Biblical Evidence for Peter being the Pope, we also go off the writings of the Early Church Fathers. We have St Ignatius of Antioch (who learned directly from the Apostle John), write that you are to follow The Bishop, as Jesus Christ follows his Father.

May I also suggest listening to (Peter and the Papacy audio by Steve Ray, and Baptism Convert to Catholicism).
 
Baby_girl_1021 said:
Thank

Please keep me in your prayers as I search for whatever it is that I’m needing to fill an emptiness that I need filled. I guess my biggest problem is Who is right and Who is wrong because there are so many who all claim to be right, and with their differing theologies I know they can’t all be. I need to know that I’M right in my own heart. Can you really KNOW FOR SURE WITHOUT ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER??
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Yes…let us look at the example of St. Paul:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

So in the passage above, the Holy Spirit leads Paul to submission to Apostolic authority to know the truth,not determine the truth by himself.

And John writes about this also in 1john4:

1John 4… 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
 
Baby_girl_1021 said:
Why do you say " obedience to Peter"? He was just a HUMAN man, a disciple who loved and followed Jesus
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Well…Jesus said…he who hears you hear me.

calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

‘Aquinas believed that faith in Christ necessarily involves trusting the Church, because Christ cannot fail to guide and protect the development of His Church.

I came to see that I did not fully trust Christ, not because I thought Him untrustworthy, but because I had not understood that Christ founded a visible hierarchically organized Body of which He is the Head, and which He has promised to protect and preserve until He returns. I had not apprehended the ecclesial organ Christ established through which the members of His Body are to trust Him. I came to see that faith in Christ is not something to be exercised invisibly, from my heart directly to Christ’s throne, as though Christ had not appointed an enduring line of shepherds. Inward faith was to be exercised outwardly, by trusting Christ through those shepherds Christ sent and established. Jesus had said, “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”29

This is the sacramental conception of faith, not simply belief that, but belief through. This is the sacramental conception of the Church, the basis for the priest speaking in persona Christi.

But upon coming to understand that Christ founded a visible hierarchically organized Body of which He is the Head and which He promised to preserve, I came to see that the way to trust Christ is to trust His Church of which He is the Head, just as the early Christians trusted Christ precisely by trusting the teaching of the Apostles. Trusting the Apostles did not subtract from (or compete with) their trust in Christ. On the contrary, when Jesus tells the Apostle Thomas, “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed,”30 He implies that greater faith is required and shown in those who trust in Christ not by seeing Him, but by believing the testimony of the Apostles. Jesus refers to this way of believing when He prays, “I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word.”31
 
From the Compendium: vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
  1. To whom is given the task of authentically interpreting the deposit of faith?
85-90
100

The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the deposit of faith has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone, that is, to the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome, and to the bishops in communion with him. To this Magisterium, which in the service of the Word of God enjoys the certain charism of truth, belongs also the task of defining dogmas which are formulations of the truths contained in divine Revelation. This authority of the Magisterium also extends to those truths necessarily connected with Revelation.
  1. In the Kingdom, what authority did Jesus bestow upon his Apostles?
551-553
567

Jesus chose the twelve, the future witnesses of his Resurrection, and made them sharers of his mission and of his authority to teach, to absolve from sins, and to build up and govern the Church. In this college, Peter received “the keys of the Kingdom” (Matthew 16:19) and assumed the first place with the mission to keep the faith in its integrity and to strengthen his brothers.
  1. Where does the one Church of Christ subsist?
816
870

The one Church of Christ, as a society constituted and organized in the world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him. Only through this Church can one obtain the fullness of the means of salvation since the Lord has entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone whose head is Peter.
 
Baby_girl_1021 said:
I am a 53 yr old female who grew up in a “cult-like” denomination that taught strongly against the Catholic Church. I came out of that denomination approx 20 yrs ago with many other friends, quite a few who have went to the Catholic Church. I am still a wandering soul in the denominational world. I’m born again and have been baptized in the baptist church. But I’m still needing “something”. I’ve listened to and read after numerous pastors and teachers. How do I know who is right and who is not? I pray but never seem to hear God and I know I need guidance from Him not humans really. I don’t know anything about the Catholic Church but my friends who have joined really seem contented compared to my ever-increasing anxiety. I’m disabled, soon to have back and or hip replacement surgery so I’m not able to be outside of my home much at this time. This has caused more anxiety because I’m not attending church. Can you help me? I don’t have a clue where to start.
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I will pray for you in your walk…welcome to CAF.

God bless.
 
To all of you who have replied to my questions and my sense of wandering, trying to get a solid foundation in my life, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for all the suggestions of reading materials, podcasts, tv, etc. looks as though I will have plenty to occupy my mind as I recuperate from surgery, if it comes to that. Will find that out next week. Please keep me (my heart and my health) in your prayers. One question more…I don’t want to overload anyone in my own eager endeavor to learn, but Protestants believe that when Jesus rose from the dead and sat down at the fathers side he became THE HIGH priest for us and there was no longer need for priests, bishops, popes because when he rose from the dead that gave us claim to one on one fellowship so that we could go directly to him to confess and pray to him without the need for an earthly intersessor because He became our intercessor to the Father. God bless you all in your endeavor to help someone like me find the path for my life that God would have me follow, with my spouse or alone ( which will probably be the case) but I can hope.
 
Baby_girl_1021 said:
To all of you who have replied to my questions and my sense of wandering, trying to get a solid foundation in my life, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for all the suggestions of reading materials, podcasts, tv, etc. looks as though I will have plenty to occupy my mind as I recuperate from surgery, if it comes to that. Will find that out next week. Please keep me (my heart and my health) in your prayers. One question more…I don’t want to overload anyone in my own eager endeavor to learn, but Protestants believe that when Jesus rose from the dead and sat down at the fathers side he became THE HIGH priest for us and there was no longer need for priests, bishops, popes because when he rose from the dead that gave us claim to one on one fellowship so that we could go directly to him to confess and pray to him without the need for an earthly intersessor because He became our intercessor to the Father. God bless you all in your endeavor to help someone like me find the path for my life that God would have me follow, with my spouse or alone ( which will probably be the case) but I can hope.
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Greetings Baby girl, glad to see you diving right in. 🙂

As someone has point out above, the early church fathers give us a very good understand of what they thought on many subjects. Where our society is quick to pick up the best selling spiritual guidance form a favorite author, Catholics like to first see what was said in the writing of the fathers. These writings are not equal to scripture but they do give us a first hand understanding of how the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd century Christians understood the teachings of the Jesus and the church. In studying the fathers you will also want/need to understand “Apostolic succession”, its importance, and its implications.

Along with scripture backing that others here can give the below is one of the most powerful ECF quotes on the subject you are questioning from Saint Ignatius.
Chapter VIII.-Let Nothing Be Done Without the Bishop.
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See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
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May I suggest you start new threads for each of your new questions. It will be much easier to manage responses. Too many questions on one thread will become cumbersome as previous questions will continue to be answered in an amongst the new questions. :hypno:

Peace!!!
 
Baby_girl_1021 said:
I don’t want to overload anyone in my own eager endeavor to learn, but Protestants believe that when Jesus rose from the dead and sat down at the fathers side he became THE HIGH priest for us and there was no longer need for priests, bishops, popes because when he rose from the dead that gave us claim to one on one fellowship so that we could go directly to him to confess and pray to him without the need for an earthly intersessor because He became our intercessor to the Father.
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Christ is out High Priest, no doubt about that.

However, we need to look at what Christ **actually **left us:

Matthew 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

What are Christ’s orders here, after clearly establishing His authority:
  1. Go and make disciples.
  2. Baptize them
    a) In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit​
  3. Teach these disciples
    a) To observe all that He has commanded them.​
  4. He will be with the disciples and the disciples’ disciples - always.
You see - Christ left us what:
A Teaching Office.
What is another name for teaching office?
Magisterium.

In another passage we see:

John 20:19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

As God the Father send God the Son — God the Son sends the Apostles.

If we look at the whole of Scriptures, we can see different orders in Church Government.

We (those that are not ordained) are the laity. We are known as “saints” Romans 1:7). And yes, we are also a priesthood. We can look at a little more in 1st Peter here: 1 Peter 2:4-10. Where priesthood is mentioned twice. So yes we are a priesthood. But when we look at the rest of Scriptures, we see that there are orders in this priesthood.
We see the Deacons in 1 Timothy 3:8-13 and in Acts 6:3. So we see different responsibilities between the Deacons and the rest of the laity. However, the Deacons are still part of the laity because they come from them. That does not mean that all the laity has the same responsibility as the Deacons.

We see the Presbyters/Elders (Priests) in 1 Timothy 5:17, in Acts 14:23 and in Titus 1:5. This is not the same Levite Priesthood. This is a Priesthood under our High Priest - Jesus Christ. These Priests are charged to preaching and teaching, as indicated in 1 Tim 5:17 above. However, the Priests also come from the laity. That does not mean that all the laity has the same responsibility as the Priests. Or that the Deacons have the same responsibility as the Priest.

We also see the Bishops (Overseers and also Elders at times) in 1 Timothy 3:1-2 and in Titus 1:7-9. The Bishops “oversee” the laity and the ordained (Deacons and Priests) in an assigned area. When we look at the Church’s 1st Council in Jerusalem in Acts 15, specifically verse 6 - we see that the non-ordained laity was not there to determine the Church’s direction - it was “The Apostles and the Elders”. The leadership of the Church. However, the Bishops also come from the laity. That does not mean that all the laity has the same responsibilities as the Bishops. Or that the Deacons and the Priests have the same responsibility as the Bishop.

And this order has been carried out since our Lord established His Church with the Apostles and the Apostles then established more of His Churches throughout the world.

I’ll leave it at this for now 😃
 
A few thoughts to add to adf417’s post.

Baby girl, just making sure that it is known. That the St Ignatius that adf417 quoted learned directly from the Apostle John, and that was written around 110 AD. Which may well have been written while the Apostle John was still alive, as his death is believed to be somewhere between 89 and 120 AD…

Also, another thing to consider about the Priest hood. Yes, Jesus Christ is the High Priest. But in the old testament, there was 1 high priest, who made the sacrifice for the sins of the Jews. But, there where still multiple “regular” priest under him. Who where still responsible for, and the only ones who could legally preform the passover. And who the Jews had to confess there sins to, etc (basically everything that the current priests do now).

Remember, that Christianity is not a brand new religion that is only 2,000 years old, it is the fulfillment of Judism. Remember Jesus said, he can not to change the law, but to fulfill it. Matthew 5:17 - “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.”
 
Baby_girl_1021 said:
Protestants believe that when Jesus rose from the dead and sat down at the fathers side he became THE HIGH priest for us and there was no longer need for priests, bishops, popes because when he rose from the dead that gave us claim to one on one fellowship so that we could go directly to him to confess and pray to him without the need for an earthly intersessor because He became our intercessor to the Father.
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What is the basis for this belief? Did it come from Jesus or His apostles? We read in the Gospel of John that Jesus said and did many things that are not written down. How are we to know everything that Jesus commanded?

sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/001/index.htm

Here is a link to the early church fathers. While they are not considered ‘scripture’, they are a testimony to how the teaching of the Apostles was understood. Keep this thought in your mind as you read them. If those who learned from the Apostles got it wrong, how can we be so arrogant as to believe that we have it right?

Baby steps, Baby girl 1021. You have much to unlearn. 🙂
 
ADF417, thank you. I will try to remember about new threads for new questions. JM3, you are right, I have so much to UNlearn, although I’ve never thought of it in that way. I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for all the consideration, the websites, podcasts, tv programs, encouragement, etc. I would now ask that you please keep me in your prayers as I am in the midst of my wanderings, searching, reading, listening, and soul searching to find with absolute surety the path that God has in plan for me. Pray that I I will learn to recognize and KNOW his voice and follow his will for me. For some reason, a definite assurance, a perfect knowing without fear of death and hell should I fail then find I was wrong after it’s too late for another chance…so much upheaval in my mind and heart…things I’ve been taught against all my life, yet still feeling a lack of something within those teaching. Sorry, seems I just keep rambling. My mind is racing when my fingers cannot keep up. Please pray for me
 
Celtic_Maiden said:
How Old is Your Church?
How Old is Your Church?
AUTHOR UNKNOWN

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1608.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you are a member of the Churches of Christ your church began near the beginning of the 19th century in New England. Abner Jones, Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell were some of the most well known originators of your religion.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel,” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.
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This is the reason my Mom converted to Catholicism! 🙂
 
Baby_girl_1021 said:
…
…I don’t want to overload anyone in my own eager endeavor to learn, but Protestants believe that when Jesus rose from the dead and sat down at the fathers side he became THE HIGH priest for us and there was no longer need for priests, bishops, popes because when he rose from the dead that gave us claim to one on one fellowship so that we could go directly to him to confess and pray to him without the need for an earthly intersessor because He became our intercessor to the Father. God bless you all in your endeavor to help someone like me find the path for my life that God would have me follow, with my spouse or alone ( which will probably be the case) but I can hope.
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Jesus is, indeed our High Priest, but we still have a ministerial priesthood. At the Last Supper Jesus wore a priestly garment, like the linen ephod of the OT priesthood. We know this because of the description of his vestiture for which the soldiers cast lots on Calvary.
At the Last Supper Jesus was acting as a priest while transforming the Passover into his memorial sacrifice. In doing so he says: “Do this in memory of me” which is to say act as a priest as I have in carrying out this action in memory of me.

The OT clearly indicates that the Jewish people were a priestly people. Likewise, we know that the ministerial priesthood of the Levites existed within Judaism right along side the general priesthood of the people. Likewise, the OT ministerial priesthood had a High Priest. Likewise, the NT has a High Priest in Jesus.

The OT makes it clear that the Levitical priesthood had duties, responsibilities, authority, and power reserved to the ministerial priesthood. Likewise, the NT church has a ministerial priesthood with powers reserved to it that are not shared by the non-ministerial priesthood of Christian believers.

The OT predicts the coming of Jesus. Isaiah and Jeremiah frequently refer to Jesus as the “Branch” of David and they are prophetic in describing Him. Jeremiah makes reference to an unending ministerial priesthood patterned after the Levitical priesthood as it relates to Jesus.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 says:
"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfil the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring forth for David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell securely. And this is the name by which it will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’ “For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to burn cereal offerings, and to make sacrifices for ever.”

We also see an important prophecy concerning the mass and Eucharist in Malachi 1:11-12 which says:

“For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. But you profane it when you say that the Lord’s table is polluted, and the food for it may be despised.”

It is important to note that there is only one pure offering that has ever been given to God. That offering was Jesus Christ upon the cross. Nevertheless, this prophecy says that in every place from the rising to the setting of the sun this perfect offering will be made. It then refers to the Lord’s table and the food that is upon it. Only the Catholic mass and the Eucharist fit this prophecy. Likewise, such offerings and sacrifices are by definition offered by priests. Moreover, these priests are always of the ministerial priesthood.

There is another pattern in the NT tied to the OT Levitical priesthood. Korah’s rebellion involved the usurpation of the ministerial priesthood.

In Jude 1:10-11 it says:
But these men revile whatever they do not understand, and by those things that they know by instinct as irrational animals do, they are destroyed. Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error, and perish in Korah’s rebellion.

For someone to perish in Korah’s rebellion in the NT church means that they would have to be attempting to usurp or otherwise abuse the ministerial priesthood. The ministerial priesthood is also attested to through the laying on of hands.

I hope this helps and God bless.
 
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