Looking for authentication of alleged Martin Luther quote

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I would put either Los Angeles or Oakland in the place of Hell for the purposes of analogy LOL…The Dodgers being the stewards of the flames…

Hey…checking the scores here, my Giants are up 4-0 on the bums! 😃
As I stated above, all Protestants must ultimately trace their theological roots to one or another schism from the Catholic Church. Muslims and Jews never were part of the Church, so they cannot be said to be causing disunity within it.

There is a bunny trail related to this thread, and as the OP, I am claiming the right to chase this rabbit, since it is tangentially connected to my original purpose, which was to discredit one of the “reformers’” theological tenets.

When I was a Protestant, my interpretation of Church history was to compare the Church that Jesus founded to a train. In 33 A.D. (or 30, if you prefer), that train left the station, bound for, say, Miami (any actual similarity between Miami and Heaven is purely coincidental; this is only an illustration). However, at some point (say, in the 4th century), everyone on the train fell asleep. 1200 years later some German, French, and English theologians, politicians, and monarchs woke up and discovered that while they were asleep, someone had shunted the train onto a different track, and it was now en route to, say, Chicago (any actual similarity between Chicago and Hell is also purely coincidental). They succeeded in detaching some carriages, co-opted another locomotive, and set part of the train back in the direction of Miami.

Then while I was still a serious Protestant (about 10 years before my conversion), I bought a CD-ROM entitled the Master Christian Library. It was a Protestant production, but it also contained some Catholic classics, such as St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, AND the full 37-volume set of the Church Fathers. I started reading Volume I of the Fathers, and I remember very clearly thinking, “Wow! St. John isn’t even cold in his grave, and already the Church has fallen into the Catholic heresies.” This Church was apostolic, authoritative, liturgical, and eucharistic, not at all what I was used to. Reading the Fathers started a slow process that culminated in my confirmation as a Catholic in 2005.

In the course of my conversion, I had to rethink my “train” analogy. The re-routing of the train from Miami to Chicago was my charitable (???) way of saying that at some point (in my opinion at the time, in the 4th century), the Church had apostatized. However, Jesus said (Matt. 16:18) that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church that he would build. He also said to his Apostles in the Upper Room Discourse (John 16:13) that the Holy Spirit would guide them (and, necessarily because they would not physically live forever, their successors) into all truth.

If the Church that Jesus founded did in fact apostatize, then the gates of Hell prevailed, and the successors of the Apostles were led into something other than the truth, and Jesus is proven to be either a liar or mistaken. If Jesus was a liar or mistaken, then He was only a man, not the Son of God, and all Christianity is a 2000-year-old fraud.

On the other hand, if Jesus was God in the flesh, then He could not have been either a liar or mistaken. The Church He founded could not have been overcome by the gates of Hell, and the successors of the Apostles could not have been led into error. The Catholic Church could not have apostatized, which means that it is those who split from the Catholic Church who are in error and schism, and who therefore must find themselves in violation of God’s will concerning the unity of His Church.

Just a little something to think about.

DaveBj
 
Oooh I love analogies. I like the train analogy lets run with it. I see it like this. A train starts out in NYC in 33CE bound for Miami. Not that I think Miami is paradise, I would probably have preferred West Palm Beach, but I’ll go with Miami. Oh and instead of Chicago being hell, can we actually change that to Cleveland? I’ve been to both and since Cleveland actually had a river that burned, it seems even more appropriate. OK so we have this train leaving NYC to Miami. About 700 to 1000 years into the trip, somewhere right around Baltimore. There was a disagreement among the conductors and engineers. So with a stop in Baltimore, they split the train both headed for Miami but with different itineraries. One we will call the B&O (Orthodox) Railroad and the other we will call the B&R(Rome) Railroad. So both of them are back on track to Miami. However about 500 years later, people on the B&R Railroad realized that what was supposed to be an express train from NYC to Miami has now made stops in Baltimore, Topeka, St Louis, Nashville, Houston, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles, finally somewhere near Pittsburgh, people started to complain that this express train had become an intercity train. When they complained to the conductor, the conductor told them that the it was the policy of the railroad to either accept the changes in itinerary, even though they had bought tickets on the express, or get off. So they did and hired another train to take them directly to Miami. Now mind you even though the B&R has decided to stop in many cities along the way and has not necessarily lived up to the guarantee of purchase of a one way direct trip to Miami, does not mean that the train is going to Cleveland or even plans on stopping in Cleveland, but is still bound for Miami just like everyone else.
While having fun with the analogy, you forgot the key point that your once-Protestant now Catholic poster was making – Jesus said He would be with His Church always (including the 1200 years from 400 to 1600) and it would always be guided in His truth. (So if B&O came into existence, then Jesus is not wrong but rather b&O is wrong in not accepting the Pope as the prime minister.) And the Church He left to the Apostles, from what the OP discovered some 15 years ago or so, is the same Catholic Church we have today. Jesus did not lie and was not mistaken (one or both of these must believed in order to support Protestantism, as the OP made clear)…which means the Protestants are wrong and thus in error in their doctrines. Meaning it is time to come home to Rome, the Church of Jesus!!

(Oh and I think, btw, it has been documented that Luther suffered from Scrupulosity. see catholicexchange.com/2009/07/30/120754/)
 
While having fun with the analogy, you forgot the key point that your once-Protestant now Catholic poster was making – Jesus said He would be with His Church always (including the 1200 years from 400 to 1600) and it would always be guided in His truth. (So if B&O came into existence, then Jesus is not wrong but rather b&O is wrong in not accepting the Pope as the prime minister.) And the Church He left to the Apostles, from what the OP discovered some 15 years ago or so, is the same Catholic Church we have today. Jesus did not lie and was not mistaken (one or both of these must believed in order to support Protestantism, as the OP made clear)…which means the Protestants are wrong and thus in error in their doctrines. Meaning it is time to come home to Rome, the Church of Jesus!!

(Oh and I think, btw, it has been documented that Luther suffered from Scrupulosity. see catholicexchange.com/2009/07/30/120754/)
You bee-t me to it, bh 😃

DaveBj
 
=beehumble;6859509]While having fun with the analogy, you forgot the key point that your once-Protestant now Catholic poster was making – Jesus said He would be with His Church always (including the 1200 years from 400 to 1600) and it would always be guided in His truth.
Who denied that? Certainly not Mike or other Lutherans.
(So if B&O came into existence, then Jesus is not wrong but rather b&O is wrong in not accepting the Pope as the prime minister.)
Continuing the analogy, B&O was in existence from the beginning. Please, please, please, a citation from scripture or the seven ecumenical councils that identifies the western patriarch, the Bishop of Rome, as “prime minister” or its equivalent.
And the Church He left to the Apostles, from what the OP discovered some 15 years ago or so, is the same Catholic Church we have today.
Certainly a part of it.
Jesus did not lie and was not mistaken (one or both of these must believed in order to support Protestantism, as the OP made clear)…which means the Protestants are wrong and thus in error in their doctrines. Meaning it is time to come home to Rome, the Church of Jesus!!
Plain polemical Nonsense. Don’t blame Jesus for the sins of popes and cardinals and German monks! Our divisions, ***“for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame” *** (CCC 817) do not make Christ a liar. They show us to be sinners - one and all. What is more, your claim, by its very nature, falsely limits the Church to the Church Militant. Christ’s promise to protect the Church includes the Church Triumphant.
(Oh and I think, btw, it has been documented that Luther suffered from Scrupulosity. see catholicexchange.com/2009/07/30/120754/)
Diagnosed by a 1500’s doctor? Goodness. :rolleyes:
Jon
 
When I was a Protestant, my interpretation of Church history was to compare the Church that Jesus founded to a train. In 33 A.D. (or 30, if you prefer), that train left the station, bound for, say, Miami (any actual similarity between Miami and Heaven is purely coincidental; this is only an illustration). However, at some point (say, in the 4th century), everyone on the train fell asleep. 1200 years later some German, French, and English theologians, politicians, and monarchs woke up and discovered that while they were asleep, someone had shunted the train onto a different track, and it was now en route to, say, Chicago (any actual similarity between Chicago and Hell is also purely coincidental). They succeeded in detaching some carriages, co-opted another locomotive, and set part of the train back in the direction of Miami.
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

DaveBj - you have an excellent way with words! You certainly gave me a good belly laugh with the Miami/Chicago comments!
 
While having fun with the analogy, you forgot the key point that your once-Protestant now Catholic poster was making – Jesus said He would be with His Church always (including the 1200 years from 400 to 1600) and it would always be guided in His truth. (So if B&O came into existence, then Jesus is not wrong but rather b&O is wrong in not accepting the Pope as the prime minister.) And the Church He left to the Apostles, from what the OP discovered some 15 years ago or so, is the same Catholic Church we have today. Jesus did not lie and was not mistaken (one or both of these must believed in order to support Protestantism, as the OP made clear)…which means the Protestants are wrong and thus in error in their doctrines. Meaning it is time to come home to Rome, the Church of Jesus!!

(Oh and I think, btw, it has been documented that Luther suffered from Scrupulosity. see catholicexchange.com/2009/07/30/120754/)
Since Christ isn’t here to ask, how are we certain that He isn’t riding on the B&O?
 
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