Looking for Bibilical reference for ratio of those saved

[leonie]

In a recent discussion with an acquaintance, I mentioned that we have no idea how many souls are saved and condemned. And, that we are free to hope that very few souls are lost.

My friend said this wasn’t a Biblica teachingl, implying that the Bible teaches that many souls are lost.

I do hope that many souls are saved and few are lost. The alternative makes me very sad.

But, I wondered why she said that this thought wasn’t Biblical. Is there a reference in the Bible that implies or states that large number of souls are lost?

 

[diggerdomer]

In a recent discussion with an acquaintance, I mentioned that we have no idea how many souls are saved and condemned. And, that we are free to hope that very few souls are lost.

My friend said this wasn’t a Biblica teachingl, implying that the Bible teaches that many souls are lost.

I do hope that many souls are saved and few are lost. The alternative makes me very sad.

But, I wondered why she said that this thought wasn’t Biblical. Is there a reference in the Bible that implies or states that large number of souls are lost?

One can read the Bible to claim that only a select few are saved, or that salvation is offered to all.

The Catholic Church teaches the latter view.

 

[John7]

Is there a reference in the Bible that implies or states that large number of souls are lost?

there is a verse…

1 Peter 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

 

[Luke65]

There are many, like this:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

But there are other scriptures to consider, like this:

“Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus replied, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.” (Luke 18:25-27)

And it’s also important to remember our Lord’s parable about those He calls at the “eleventh hour” (Matt. 20). So, I think the bottom line is that we just don’t know, which makes sense according to God’s plan. So pray and do penance! For all poor sinners.

 

[Kasey1]

There are many, like this:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

But there are other scriptures to consider, like this:

“Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus replied, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.” (Luke 18:25-27)

And it’s also important to remember our Lord’s parable about those He calls at the “eleventh hour” (Matt. 20). So, I think the bottom line is that we just don’t know, which makes sense according to God’s plan. So pray and do penance! For all poor sinners.

Nice work–thank you for sharing-
Thanks so much for this.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Pope John Paul II discusses this briefly in Crossing the Threshold of Hope; the end of the chapter Does “Eternal Life” Exist? He is discussing the opposite extreme; those who would say all are saved in the end. He admits there is a case for that, but notes that Jesus’s description of the Last Judgment in Matthew is a strong indication that some will be damned for eternity. He also notes that justice demands there be punishment for wrongdoing. However, he the question of how many is best let to God.

Note that this book is unique I think. It is written by a pope, but in his capacity as a theologian, not as pope. Thus it is the thoughts of a very capable teacher, but not an official Church document.

 

[intheBible]

There is a number in the bible which tells us the number of the people that will be gathered up on the last day, when Christ returns.

Revelation 9:16
And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them

200,000 x 1000 = 200,000,000

or 200 million souls.

This is a proof text that tells us that not everybody who calls on the Lord will be saved, infact only a remnant will be saved.

Consider on this earth right now are around 6-7 billion people, throughout the course of earth maybe there have been 3-4 billion including the 6-7 we have now. so consider how many 200 million is out of the current 6 billion people. And don’t be fooled, this verse is a reference to those who will be gathered up on the Day of Judgment.

If you do the math this is about 30 percent. or roughly 1/3. This is incredible information because if you do a search in your bible for the context of 1/3, it fits perfectly with what God tells us about 1/3 going through fire, 1/3 being chosen, etc. God knows the beginning from the end, so it is amazing to think thousands of years later, this number would indeed match the informtion God gave us so long ago.

 

[LilyM]

There are Our Lord’s own words quoted above where He says that few will enter the narrow gate that leads to salvation.

However, at another stage He tells the Apostles ‘there are MANY mansions in my Father’s house’. Many mansions implies, surely, many people resident to occupy them, no?

I think it’s one of those paradoxes designed to discourage lukewarm faith or praxis.

Like where in different places in the Gospels He says both ‘whoever is not with us is against us’ AND ‘whoever is not against us is for us’. And He does say both! Can’t both be literally true though.

 

[diggerdomer]

There is a number in the bible which tells us the number of the people that will be gathered up on the last day, when Christ returns.

Revelation 9:16
And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them

200,000 x 1000 = 200,000,000

or 200 million souls.

This is a proof text that tells us that not everybody who calls on the Lord will be saved, infact only a remnant will be saved.

Consider on this earth right now are around 6-7 billion people, throughout the course of earth maybe there have been 3-4 billion including the 6-7 we have now. so consider how many 200 million is out of the current 6 billion people. And don’t be fooled, this verse is a reference to those who will be gathered up on the Day of Judgment.

If you do the math this is about 30 percent. or roughly 1/3. This is incredible information because if you do a search in your bible for the context of 1/3, it fits perfectly with what God tells us about 1/3 going through fire, 1/3 being chosen, etc. God knows the beginning from the end, so it is amazing to think thousands of years later, this number would indeed match the informtion God gave us so long ago.

That’s your opinion, good for you, but it’s not what the Catholic Church teaches (nor any other Christian Church that I’m aware of).

 

[Joe_Kelley]

There is a number in the bible which tells us the number of the people that will be gathered up on the last day, when Christ returns.

Revelation 9:16
And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them

200,000 x 1000 = 200,000,000

or 200 million souls.

This is a proof text that tells us that not everybody who calls on the Lord will be saved, infact only a remnant will be saved.

Consider on this earth right now are around 6-7 billion people, throughout the course of earth maybe there have been 3-4 billion including the 6-7 we have now. so consider how many 200 million is out of the current 6 billion people. And don’t be fooled, this verse is a reference to those who will be gathered up on the Day of Judgment.

If you do the math this is about 30 percent. or roughly 1/3. This is incredible information because if you do a search in your bible for the context of 1/3, it fits perfectly with what God tells us about 1/3 going through fire, 1/3 being chosen, etc. God knows the beginning from the end, so it is amazing to think thousands of years later, this number would indeed match the informtion God gave us so long ago.

Where does it say that the horsemen were the saved?

15 So the four angels were released, who had been held ready for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the troops of cavalry was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. 17 And this was how I saw the horses in my vision: the riders wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire * and of sulphur, and the heads of the horses were like lions’ heads, and fire and smoke and sulphur issued from their mouths. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulphur issuing from their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; their tails are like serpents, with heads, and by means of them they wound.

Where do you get the idea that the horsemen are the saved? The way I read it they are the plague commanded by the angel to kill a third of mankind.

Have you not read chapters 7:2-10 ?

Then I saw another angel ascend from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3* saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel, 5 . . . 9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!”

For some reason the Jehova’s Witnesses stop at verse 4 and ignore verse 9.

 

[Sir_Knight]

This topic has been widely discussed here & here.

And here are some writings from the Church Fathers on this topic. Note the following comments …

• "The most common sentiment which is held is that, among Christians, there are more damned souls than predestined souls."
• "Many attain to faith, but few to the heavenly kingdom."
• “There are few who are saved.”
• “Few are saved in comparison to those who are damned.”
• "Out of 100,000 people whose lives have always been bad, you will find barely ONE who is worthy of indulgence."
• "the number of priests who fall into hell each day is so great that it seemed impossible that there be any left on earth"
• "Many priests are not saved; on the contrary, the number of those who are damned is greater."
• "Out of thirty-three thousand people who died. Two went up to heaven without delay, three went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell."
• “If you consider the sacrament of penance, there are so many distorted confessions, so many studied excuses, so many deceitful repentances, so many false promises, so many ineffective resolutions, so many invalid absolutions!”
• "Most Catholic adults confess badly at death, therefore most of them are damned."

 

[diggerdomer]

This topic has been widely discussed here & here.

And here are some writings from the Church Fathers on this topic. Note the following comments …

• "The most common sentiment which is held is that, among Christians, there are more damned souls than predestined souls."
• "Many attain to faith, but few to the heavenly kingdom."
• “There are few who are saved.”
• “Few are saved in comparison to those who are damned.”
• "Out of 100,000 people whose lives have always been bad, you will find barely ONE who is worthy of indulgence."
• "the number of priests who fall into hell each day is so great that it seemed impossible that there be any left on earth"
• "Many priests are not saved; on the contrary, the number of those who are damned is greater."
• "Out of thirty-three thousand people who died. Two went up to heaven without delay, three went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell."
• “If you consider the sacrament of penance, there are so many distorted confessions, so many studied excuses, so many deceitful repentances, so many false promises, so many ineffective resolutions, so many invalid absolutions!”
• "Most Catholic adults confess badly at death, therefore most of them are damned."

I agree with one of the links you referenced, that the sermon you reference is frightening. Thank goodness the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that.

 

[Sir_Knight]

But his writings are approved as “being worthy of belief” – which means that they do not contradict any Church teaching.

 

[diggerdomer]

But his writings are approved as “being worthy of belief” – which means that they do not contradict any Church teaching.

Approved by whom?

And, while they may not contradict Church teaching, that does not mean they are Church teaching.

 

[LilyM]

Are you referring to St Leonard of Port Maurice, Sir Knight?

If so, the mere fact that he has been declared a Saint doesn’t mean his writings are worthy of belief. Far from it.

If this were so, then the fact of St Catherine of Siena’s canonisation means that HER writings - the ones in which she relates Our Lady telling her that she was NOT Immaculately Conceived - mean that these writings are worthy of belief. They clearly are not.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Jesus Himself tells us that MANY will be lost compared to the FEW that will be saved.

then the fact of St Catherine of Siena’s canonisation means that HER writings - the ones in which she relates Our Lady telling her that she was NOT Immaculately Conceived

Tell me more. A link would be useful as well.

 

[LilyM]

Jesus Himself tells us that MANY will be lost compared to the FEW that will be saved.

Tell me more. A link would be useful as well.

Jesus Himself ALSO tells us that there are MANY mansions (necessarily occupied by MANY people) in His Father’s house. Meaning many will be saved. So go figure.

I don’t know more about St Catherine of Siena beyond what has been written about it in the EWTN library ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/PRIPUB.TXT

“Canonization of a Saint does not at all guarantee the truth of alleged private revelations. St. Catherine of Siena seems to have claimed Our Lady appeared to her and denied the Immaculate Conception.”

Regardless fo the situation vis-a-vis St Catherine, it is a well-known fact that should need no verification that many saints DID deny that Our Lady was Immaculately Conceived. Including Sts Bernard, Thomas Aquinas and Bonaventure (who literally called it ‘foreign doctrine’).

Proves beyond doubt the point that canonisation of a person, or even calling them a Doctor of the Church, is not a wholesale endorsement by the Church of what they wrote or taught, whether about visions or locutions or otherwise.

 

[mathematician]

In a recent discussion with an acquaintance, I mentioned that we have no idea how many souls are saved and condemned. And, that we are free to hope that very few souls are lost.

You won’t find an exact ratio, but passages such as Matt 7.13-14 are relevant. Universalism seems very difficult to square with the Bible.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Jesus Himself ALSO tells us that there are MANY mansions (necessarily occupied by MANY people) in His Father’s house. Meaning many will be saved. So go figure.

Every homily that I have ever heard on this passage equates the mansions with different levels of rewards, so to speak, and that not all will be rewarded equally but based on their fruits. Additionally, no where in the passage does it make reference to those that are lost. Therefore, to draw the conclusion from this passage that MANY are saved would be incorrect. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that for those that are saved, they will experience MANY different levels of rewards.

However, in the passage where Jesus DOES talk about those who are lost in comparison to those that are saved, He is very clear in telling us that MANY are lost in comparison to those that are saved.

I don’t know more about St Catherine of Siena beyond what has been written about it in the EWTN library ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/PRIPUB.TXT

“Canonization of a Saint does not at all guarantee the truth of alleged private revelations. St. Catherine of Siena seems to have claimed Our Lady appeared to her and denied the Immaculate Conception.”

Regardless fo the situation vis-a-vis St Catherine, it is a well-known fact that should need no verification that many saints DID deny that Our Lady was Immaculately Conceived. Including Sts Bernard, Thomas Aquinas and Bonaventure (who literally called it ‘foreign doctrine’).

Proves beyond doubt the point that canonisation of a person, or even calling them a Doctor of the Church, is not a wholesale endorsement by the Church of what they wrote or taught, whether about visions or locutions or otherwise.

I find it amazing that when Pope John-Paul II died, all of his unpublished writings were quickly snatched up so that when/if he was considered for sainthood, they would check to make sure that nothing was in conflict with Church teaching. Why do that if it doesn’t matter?

 

[diggerdomer]

Every homily that I have ever heard on this passage equates the mansions with different levels of rewards, so to speak, and that not all will be rewarded equally but based on their fruits.

I’ve never heard anything like that. Are you suggesting that in heaven there are degrees or gradations on the Beatific Vision? Some people get a little bit, some half, some the whole? So in heaven only some people are fully in the presence of God, others are…what? You can be in heaven yet not fully in God’s presence?

This doesn’t make sense to me. Thanks for any help.