Looking for biblical evidence of "when does life begin?"

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“According to Jewish interpretation, based on Genesis, the soul of the human being (the breath of life) is infused AFTER G-d creates the body, which is formed from the earth; in other words, immediately before birth. That is when the full status of human–including soul–is achieved.”

I don’t doubt what you say above with regard to Adam. After all, Adam was created in an entirely different manner than the rest of humanity.

Taking your view and applying it to Catholic theology, I don’t see much (if any) difference.

Until conception, a human body does not exist. Until a human body exists, God has not created a soul.

Now, if you are saying that Jewish theology teaches that an unborn child is not considered a human being and does not have a soul until after deliverance from the mother’s womb and vaginal canal, then we clearly do have a difference of theology.

I am not Jewish, but I have always understood Orthodox Judaism to be against abortion. If my understanding is correct, I can only assume that for that type of Judaism to be against abortion, O.J. must accord some semblence of humanity to an unborn child.

Please correct me if I have misstated Jewish belief in any way.

I wish you a Blessed Passover.
 
Thank you, Salvatore, and likewise a Blessed Easter to you and yours.

Actually, Orthodox Judaism does not oppose abortion in certain instances. It does oppose abortion on demand. However, when the woman’s life is in imminent danger if the pregnancy is not terminated, then it is not only permissible but required to abort the fetus, even during the last trimester. Also, in cases of rape and incest, the severe emotional damage already done to the woman is sufficient grounds to terminate the pregnancy since carrying the child to term would only aggravate the woman’s mental health, although this decision must be evaluated carefully. The latter case of abortion is called a leniency; but the former (woman’s life in imminent danger) is a necessity according to Jewish Law. The justification for Judaism is exactly what I commented on in my previous post, namely, that the child is not accorded the full status of human being until immediately prior to birth when the soul is thought to be infused.
 
“Conception” is the end of the process in which a human being is created. It results when a sperm penetrates the egg.

“Implantation” is when the newly created totipotent zygote (which is what the cell is called after conception) attaches itself inside of the female. Implantation can occur in either the uterus (that is, on the uterine wall) or in the fallopian tubes. If implanation occurs in the fallopian tubes, both the child and mother will die unless the implanted zygote is removed.

The “norm” is implanation in the uterus.
 
There have been a lot of fine responses in this thread. People have been qquoting relevant scripture, the Didache and just speakking with far more eloquence than I can. I can only pose a question. If it is not a child, what is it? God bless.
 
cho,
conception is the moment the egg is fertilized by the sperm. Biologically speaking the zygote begins to divide almost immediately without needing the mother for sustenance. An egg can be fertilized within the fallopian tube, in the uterus, or even as it is leaving the uterus (in effect too late to be implanted). Implantation is when the fertilized egg attaches to the walls of the uterus and begins drawing sustenance from the mother.
 
God is up for human cloning. We call the identical twins (or triplets, or quads etc). The biological material may be the same, but the souls are unique.
I met two different sets of identical twins… they were not identical–true their general features were very similar but they had nuances that could be pickep up (i.e.: one particular set: girl #1 thinner face and more extrovertive and able to learn languages faster; girl #2 a little shy with a slightly deeper voice (I only got to know them for a few month–and not intimately); cloning, as I understand it, produces (once it is perfected) the exact carbon/duplicator copy of the original–the only deviation would depend upon environment… natural duplication (twins, triplets…) will produce the nuances that would make the individual a composite of the parents composition with all of the significant/insignificant variants…

I do concur with you on the uniqueness of the souls!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I remember a question from an atheist
WHY DOES GOD HATE CHILDREN?
More fertilized eggs are misscarried or absorbed by the women’s body in the first few weeks than are either born or aborted. There for God is the biggest “murder”.
I know that it is strawman argument but it will be interesting to know what Catholics have to say on this.
 
*"I remember a question from an atheist

Quote:
WHY DOES GOD HATE CHILDREN?
More fertilized eggs are misscarried or absorbed by the women’s body in the first few weeks than are either born or aborted. There for God is the biggest “murder”.

I know that it is strawman argument but it will be interesting to know what Catholics have to say on this."*

Zygotes, embryos, and even fetuses, are miscarried and expelled many times by women.

The difference between miscarriage and abortion is that miscarriage occurs because, quite simply, “something went wrong”. Either the zygote, embryo, or fetus was deformed in such a way that it could not live, or the woman’s body was simply not “ready” to carry the newly formed child to term.

An abortion is the intentional termination of a pregnancy (which begins the moment conception occurs) by a woman either upon herself or by a third person “employed” by the woman to do so on her behalf.

God does not do either - he simply allows both to occur.

I did not join the military during my college, graduate school, and law school years, and yet I voted Republican in each presidential election. Does that make me a murderer because although I “watched on the sidelines”, the persons I voted for won and took us to war that resulted in the deaths of thousands? Well, God sent into motion “life” and He, too, “watches from the sidelines” as man plugs his way through life. Does that make God a murderer simply because he set into motion “life”, and murder, abortion, disease, and war, kill people as a result of “life” moving forward?

God does not kill innocent babies. Idiot humans do enough killing of themselves without needing God’s “help” . . . :mad:
 
Equating death with hate can only be understood by an atheist. Sure, Christians mourn a miscarriage and it is a terrible time for a woman, but Paul said to live is Christ, to die is gain. Christians are comforted by the knowledge that their child is with the Lord and someday will be reunited with their parents. For the atheist this life is all they have (they think) so loss of life for them is the worst thing that can happen. Funny though that this atheist considers God a murderer but would probably not apply that label to an abortion doctor.
 
I remember a question from an atheist

I know that it is strawman argument but it will be interesting to know what Catholics have to say on this.
God and God alone is the author of life and death. No one here argues with that. However, in surgical and chemical abortion, we are making ourselves out to be that author, when that privilege belongs to God alone. Sounds a little “Adam-and-Eveish”. As the serpent said to them, “Go ahead taste the apple and then YOU WILL BE LIKE GODS.”
 
WHY DOES GOD HATE CHILDREN?
More fertilized eggs are misscarried or absorbed by the women’s body in the first few weeks than are either born or aborted.
This seems like a factoid: A statement made to look like a fact.

What references can be sited as to the accuracy of this? What study and methods were used? Did the atheist just make this up?
 
I remember a question from an atheist

I know that it is strawman argument but it will be interesting to know what Catholics have to say on this.
The Good Lord giveth, and the Good Lord taketh away.
 
Equating death with hate can only be understood by an atheist. Sure, Christians mourn a miscarriage and it is a terrible time for a woman, but Paul said to live is Christ, to die is gain. Christians are comforted by the knowledge that their child is with the Lord and someday will be reunited with their parents. For the atheist this life is all they have (they think) so loss of life for them is the worst thing that can happen. Funny though that this atheist considers God a murderer but would probably not apply that label to an abortion doctor.
Quite true and profound. Thank you for sharing.
 
I remember a question from an atheist

I know that it is strawman argument but it will be interesting to know what Catholics have to say on this.
…have you ever been part of a blood drive (work/school/bank)? There’s the standard prerequiste of “healthy” donor–clearly, that trust has been violated by individuals and organized entities–the primise being that anything, including the common cold, can be transmited through infected blood…

…ever gone shopping in the leading supermarkets?.. their commercials profess the refreshest items–in reality expired produce and other goods are sold past their expiration or while physically defective…

What’s that saying… caveat emptor?

Thank God that His Design follows a greater Rule!

…as we pollute our environment and our bodies, it is a wonder that the sci-fi flicks’ prophecies (there’s one with a grusome theme) have not overrun the world!

…I have certain sensitivities… when I listen to my body I am at optimum health… when I fight it… well, fun is not the adjective that could best discribe me…

…human conception is not very different from the “well-oiled machine…” When at optimum health (physical and emotional) the man and woman are fully furtile and the woman’s womb at full readiness for conception…

…further, a woman’s cycle allows her to ovulate once a month… not because God is a murderer of children (as are all abortionists, at all levels) but because the body has been engineered to guarantee fecundigy (Genesis 9:7).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
This seems like a factoid: A statement made to look like a fact.

What references can be sited as to the accuracy of this? What study and methods were used? Did the atheist just make this up?
…I guess they are going on the presumption that a woman has a monthly period unless she is pregnant.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
The soul is immediately placed into the “clump of cells” which formed as a result of the sperm penetrating the egg. This “clump of cells” is a human “clump of cells” which will soon develop into a zygote, fetus, intant, baby, child, teen, adult, geriatric… The soul is present immediately upon impact and the first instant of conception. The soul’s presence is what makes abortion such an atrocity.
RosaryFan’s post is essentially correct, that the soul is placed into the fertilized egg at the moment of conception. The Biblical basis for this can be found by examining both Deuteronomy 25:7-10 and Genesis 38:8-10 in light of Jewish and Catholic interpretation.

***If, however, a man does not care to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go up to the elders at the gate and declare, ‘My brother-in-law does not intend to perform his duty toward me and refuses to perpetuate his brother’s name in Israel.’ Thereupon the elders of his city shall summon him and admonish him. If he persists in saying, ‘I am not willing to marry her,’ 4 his sister-in-law, in the presence of the elders, shall go up to him and strip his sandal from his foot and spit in his face, saying publicly, ‘This is how one should be treated who will not build up his brother’s family!’ *(Deuteronomy 25:7-10)
Having a male heir and continuing the family name and bloodline were so important to ancient Israelites that the mosaic law demanded a brother in-law to marry his brother’s widow in the event of his brother’s death, to have children by her and to raise those children who would then inherit his dead brother’s estate. Note that the penatly for not doing so was public humiliation - spit in his face, etc.

*Then Judah said to Onan, “Unite with your brother’s widow, in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your brother’s line.” Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother’s widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too. (Genesis 38:8-10)*Onan refused to raise an heir to his brother with his brother’s widow, enjoying the sex act but withdrawing and “spilling his seed” at the last moment. But note that his punishment was not public humiliation by humans - God himself demanded Onan’s life.

Why was Onan’s life demanded of him? Why was he not punished with public humiliation instead?

We know that man’s body is created and mortal. We also know that man’s spirit is created by God and immortal. When a man’s spriit seperates from his body, we call that death. The body returns to the dust and the spirit lives on either in Heaven or Hell. If a spirit is not present in a body, the body is dead. The spirit must be present for there to be life. Now if conception takes place, the baby is alive but if the spirit should seperate from the fertilized egg, the life will die. Where there is no spirit, there is no life. In order for their to be life, the immortal spirit must be united with the mortal body.

During sexual union, man brings the sperm and woman brings the egg. But it is God who brings the spirit. The spirit does not come from the father or mother but from God. That is why the Church teaches that man and woman are co-creators of human life along with God. When man and woman unite sexually, God is present in a special way. Man and woman bring what is necissary to create the mortal body and God is present to add the immortal spiritual soul. If the spirit is not added at the moment of conception, the baby is not conceived - dead. This is what makes sex a holy, spiritual act, because God is present in a special way.

God’s allowing man and woman to co-create a human life with him is one of his greatest giffts to us. In Onan’s case, he denied God the opportunity to create a new life and so God demanded his in return. Under the mosaic law it makes perfect sense… eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life. This is why Onan was not just humiliated publically but why God demanded his life. A life for a life!

While not explicitly stated in the Bible, intepretation of Deuteronomy 25 together with Genesis 38 as “Life beings at conception” was the understanding of these passages throughout Jewish theological history, up until modern reformed Judiasim, must like modern reformed Protestantism, taught otherwise. it is also part of the Biblical basis for teaching that abortion, contraception and masturbations are essentially a rejection of God’s invitation to man to become a participant in the genesis of human life (co-creators) and as such, grave sins against God himself. This is also the Magesterial interpretation of the Church established by Jesus Christ.

-Tim-
 
jcrichton;7793722:
…I guess they are going on the presumption that a woman has a monthly period unless she is pregnant.
If she is not pregnant, her egg is UNfertilized. The quotation is talking about fertilized eggs.
I concur; but I still believe that the reasoning comes from the fact that women ovulate/have a period monthly… the poster (or the original cited statement) may be enhancing the numbers by stating it as “fertilized” eggs–it is very similar to speach/pools that are orchestrated to support a biased philosophy (i.e.: planned parenthood chartered as a women’s health provider).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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