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AnnetteJoan
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Even if true,people are not infallible (neither is the Pope except on de fide pronouncements, for that matter). Doesn’t change the fact that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ.
Looking for fellow Jewish converts who are now Traditional Catholics
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Metis1
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That’s not the issue I was dealing with.
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Metis1
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Good point, imo, as these issues tend to interrelate.
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yankeesouth
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Really enjoy your comments AJ!
One of my favorite Journey Home shows was this one with Debbie Herbeck…
One of my favorite Journey Home shows was this one with Debbie Herbeck…
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Metis1
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BTW, what I forgot to add was that I do agree with you. Have a most Blessed Lent.
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AnnetteJoan
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Do they believe they must keep Torah to be saved?
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OdermusConfirmus
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While I cannot speak for ConstantLearner or all Messianic Jews, the term describing this group (Messianic Jews) is a “blanket” term. Being Jewish myself and thus quite familiar with them, I know you cannot speak for all of the groups individually.
They generally fall under sola-scriptura Protestant theology as to doctrine, so I would have to say “no” to your specific answer for these Jewish-Christian hybrid groups.
In Judaism there is no “salvation” doctrine and thus Torah is not observed to “gain salvation” since the concept does not exist. Thus I’ve never met any Messianic Jewish group that has ever stretched their theology to claim that Torah was observed as a requisite to Christian salvation. As sola-scriptura Protestants, all the groups I’ve ever met fall under the “saved-by-grace-alone” umbrella.
Philologically speaking, the Hebrew word for “commandment” as in “Torah commandment” in Hebrew (mitzvah) literally means “to bring about a blessing” into the world where none exists. Jews observe Torah in order to undo the damage of captivity of slavery that they endured in Egypt to bring about the “blessings” that true freedom brings from following God’s laws instead of the whims of man.
There is no concept of “salvation by works” through observance of Torah in Judaism. On the contrary, it is “observing the commandments of man that brings slavery, but observing the commandments of God that brings freedom and blessings.” Thus the underlying reason why Jews observe Torah, and never a means to gain merit or some sort of redemptive salvation.
From what I understand, even Messianic Jews are hard-pressed to somehow never change this fundamental principle of Judaism. If you think about it, since no observant Jew currently observes Torah to gain salvation of any type, suddenly telling them they must would likely be an easy way to repel potential converts instead of make them. Why? Because you would suddenly be changing the story and meaning behind the Exodus and the reason for the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai shortly thereafter. It’s about redemption from slavery to freedom, not from slavery to more bondage.
Observance of the Torah is not something the Jews must do now that they are free. It is something the Jews get to do now that they are free.
They generally fall under sola-scriptura Protestant theology as to doctrine, so I would have to say “no” to your specific answer for these Jewish-Christian hybrid groups.
In Judaism there is no “salvation” doctrine and thus Torah is not observed to “gain salvation” since the concept does not exist. Thus I’ve never met any Messianic Jewish group that has ever stretched their theology to claim that Torah was observed as a requisite to Christian salvation. As sola-scriptura Protestants, all the groups I’ve ever met fall under the “saved-by-grace-alone” umbrella.
Philologically speaking, the Hebrew word for “commandment” as in “Torah commandment” in Hebrew (mitzvah) literally means “to bring about a blessing” into the world where none exists. Jews observe Torah in order to undo the damage of captivity of slavery that they endured in Egypt to bring about the “blessings” that true freedom brings from following God’s laws instead of the whims of man.
There is no concept of “salvation by works” through observance of Torah in Judaism. On the contrary, it is “observing the commandments of man that brings slavery, but observing the commandments of God that brings freedom and blessings.” Thus the underlying reason why Jews observe Torah, and never a means to gain merit or some sort of redemptive salvation.
From what I understand, even Messianic Jews are hard-pressed to somehow never change this fundamental principle of Judaism. If you think about it, since no observant Jew currently observes Torah to gain salvation of any type, suddenly telling them they must would likely be an easy way to repel potential converts instead of make them. Why? Because you would suddenly be changing the story and meaning behind the Exodus and the reason for the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai shortly thereafter. It’s about redemption from slavery to freedom, not from slavery to more bondage.
Observance of the Torah is not something the Jews must do now that they are free. It is something the Jews get to do now that they are free.
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AnnetteJoan
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When I asked if the “Messianic Jews” the other poster was familiar with believed in keeping the Torah for salvation, I was approaching it from both the Jewish and evangelical protestant viewpoint…evangelicals believe in “being saved”, so I wondered if they are keeping Torah for that purpose. I know that Judaism doesn’t believe in doing things to “be saved” but rather to have a better share in the olam ha’ba (world to come).
So, since you say “Messianics” are Sola Scriptura in belief, then they are as I originally said, protestants of Jewish heritage.
So, since you say “Messianics” are Sola Scriptura in belief, then they are as I originally said, protestants of Jewish heritage.
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OdermusConfirmus
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This is my final post on here, but Jews don’t hold that keeping Torah will give them any particular share in Olam HaBa whatsoever.
In fact, the reality and guarantee of Olam HaBa is not a central shared concept among Jews. The majority of Jews do not know if the Life of the World to Come is literal or will come at all. In fact, the Talmud teaches that if one keeps Torah in order to receive a reward from God, they can rest assured that they will not receive the reward in the end. Many Jews hold that this life is all that there is.
Not all Protestants belong to the same form of Fundamentalism that Messianic Jews adhere to. The Messianic Jews generally adopt a form of radical sola scriptura that rejects much of the mainstream teachings of Luther, Calvin and general Protestant groups.
Messianic Jewish movements belong mainly to the NRMs or New Religious Movements of the Second Great Awakening, the American religious phenomenon that gave birth to the Millerites, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Latter Day Saints and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They tend to share a lot with the theology that inspired Herbert W. Armstrong and his now failed Worldwide Church of God.
The form of sola scriptura they adopt tends to be very radical and often dismisses critical Biblical scholarship, academic historical study, and empirical scientific discovery. They even dismiss the Sola Scriptura of Martin Luther himself, so they have little in common with Protestantism of mainstream Christianity.
In fact, the reality and guarantee of Olam HaBa is not a central shared concept among Jews. The majority of Jews do not know if the Life of the World to Come is literal or will come at all. In fact, the Talmud teaches that if one keeps Torah in order to receive a reward from God, they can rest assured that they will not receive the reward in the end. Many Jews hold that this life is all that there is.
Not all Protestants belong to the same form of Fundamentalism that Messianic Jews adhere to. The Messianic Jews generally adopt a form of radical sola scriptura that rejects much of the mainstream teachings of Luther, Calvin and general Protestant groups.
Messianic Jewish movements belong mainly to the NRMs or New Religious Movements of the Second Great Awakening, the American religious phenomenon that gave birth to the Millerites, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Latter Day Saints and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They tend to share a lot with the theology that inspired Herbert W. Armstrong and his now failed Worldwide Church of God.
The form of sola scriptura they adopt tends to be very radical and often dismisses critical Biblical scholarship, academic historical study, and empirical scientific discovery. They even dismiss the Sola Scriptura of Martin Luther himself, so they have little in common with Protestantism of mainstream Christianity.
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ConstantLearner
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The group I’m familiar with is not sola scriptura (I wouldn’t admire any group that was), and yes, they do believe they need to keep the Torah, and don’t resemble any Protestant sect at all. (I also wouldn’t admire any sect like that.) I suppose every group is a little different. I can only speak for the one group I’m familiar with.
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AnnetteJoan
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When I refer to “Judaism” I mean only Orthodox Judaism. Orthodox (more correctly known as traditional) Judaism most certainly believes in the Olam Ha’Ba (world to come), the techiyat ha’meitim (resurrection of the dead) and much more that are often wrongly associated as beginning with Christianity.
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AnnetteJoan
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The groups that came out of the Second Great Awakening of the 1800s (SDAs, WW Church of God/Armstrongism, JWs, etc) have little in common with the “Messianic Jews” since the groups arising out of the SGA believe in soul sleep, no eternal hell, and so on.
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AnnetteJoan
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OK, so they’re more along the lines of the Ebionite heresy of the 1st century then:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05242c.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05242c.htm
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ConstantLearner
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They don’t consider themselves heretics, though. They observe the Mosaic Law, but they also believe in the divinity of Christ and the Trinity. Christ, himself, after all, was a Jew, who observed the Jewish holy days. They consider themselves Jews who made the right decision regarding Christ.
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AnnetteJoan
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Heretics usually don’t consider themselves to be heretics. 
They wouldn’t be heretics from Judaism (unless they believed Jesus is divine), only Christianity since Christianity does not believe we need to keep the Jewish Torah for salvation, or at all for any reason.
They wouldn’t be heretics from Judaism (unless they believed Jesus is divine), only Christianity since Christianity does not believe we need to keep the Jewish Torah for salvation, or at all for any reason.
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