Looking for Help with Discussion with Evangelicals

[glendab]

Oh Cat, you explained perfectly what I had an older Catholic woman say to me about NOT needing frequent Confession:

…We knew and admitted that we sinned, but we believed all our sins, past, present, and future, were forgiven once we asked Jesus into our heart to be our Savior. We didn’t need to ask for forgiveness for each and every sin because we were already forgiven and to believe that we needed “more” forgiveness was an insult to Jesus’ finished work on the cross of Calvary.

What we did was confess our sin to God and accept the forgiveness that was already
If we sinned, yes, we were forgiven already.

But she added this bit of her “Catholicism” to the mix: IF WE PRAYED THE ROSARY! If we prayed the Rosary, we were forgiven and didn’t need Confession! So where you have asking Jesus to enter our hearts, she saw the necessary ingredient to never having to Confess as just praying a Rosary and feeling a bit of sorrow while doing it.

Oh dearie me! She is a EMHC at the new parish where I am and this conversation came up as I was trying to get to know her while we had dinner at a nice restaurant. Now I know enough. This wasn’t my first encounter with a “saved” Catholic.

Glenda

 

[JustaServant]

Oh Cat, you explained perfectly what I had an older Catholic woman say to me about NOT needing frequent Confession:

But she added this bit of her “Catholicism” to the mix: IF WE PRAYED THE ROSARY! If we prayed the Rosary, we were forgiven and didn’t need Confession! So where you have asking Jesus to enter our hearts, she saw the necessary ingredient to never having to Confess as just praying a Rosary and feeling a bit of sorrow while doing it.

Oh dearie me! She is a EMHC at the new parish where I am and this conversation came up as I was trying to get to know her while we had dinner at a nice restaurant. Now I know enough. This wasn’t my first encounter with a “saved” Catholic.

Glenda

That’s where the “altar call” comes in. Coming forward to either “get saved” or “get right with God”, a kind of “fundamentalist sacrament”.
Does it take the place of Catholic Confession? I asked this question on another thread and never got an answer.

 

[Avila123]

SPACE IS RESTRICTED HERE ON CAF sO I’ll be brief

READ: 1Jn.1:8-10; 1 Jn.5: 16-17 & Jn.20:19-23.
Ties in w/ above BUT add Mt. 19:17
READ James 2: 6-15
Rom.10: 17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Chris “

Please look for the private message I sent you.

God Bless and guide you!
Patrick [PJM]

Sorry I cut the post for space reasons. Thank you. I have read copied and pasted and will read a few more times so that I can calmly state the Church’s teachings with biblical references and loving kindness.

 

[ltwin]

Just thought I would pick up on that one as I knocked out some words to cut the post. For me it wasn’t so good because I got the impression that it was read 3 chapters full stop and they were a bit startled when a usually quick and avid reader admitted they could only read the Bible very slowly, sometimes meditating on a short phrase for days on end. The downside to Lectio Divina is that one can delight in the detail and lose the bigger picture (hence my sign up to Bible Study). It just puzzled me as I find it difficult to believe any Christian simply religiously reads 3 chapters a day or that they don’t fall into Lectio Divina. My sister in law found it intriguing (she called it prayerfully reading) and seemed a bit wistful. If she hadn’t shut my brother up quickly, I had the feeling that I was going to be accused of heresy.

I don’t understand why they think that is strange. Meditating on the Word is a well respected spiritual discipline among evangelicals. The Holy Spirit can take one passage of Scripture and illuminate it for us, showing us new aspects of it that perhaps we’ve never considered before.

They started to go to a local independent Christian Fellowship Church and when they moved, they joined a Citygate Church which seems to have strong links with the Bethel Church Redding, California. They also now go to an Evangelical Anglican Church.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether the real issue is that he is hurt and does not understand why I reverted to Catholicism and did not rejoin the Evangelicals. And to add to his confusion, I am thoroughly enjoying the whole experience (even learning painful lessons).

Bethel Church is a Pentecostal Church that participates in the “New Apostolic Reformation” and other fringe Prophetic Movements. That is very different from an evangelical Anglican Church. However, neither of those traditions teach that Christians do not sin.

They seem to be church hopping. But its a very radical form of church hopping. Usually, you kind of stay in the same tradition, but they seem to be jumping around all over the place.

 

[ltwin]

One of the denominations that teaches this is the Church of God.

Which Church of God are you talking about? (There are like a million with that name. )

 

[ltwin]

That’s where the “altar call” comes in. Coming forward to either “get saved” or “get right with God”, a kind of “fundamentalist sacrament”.
Does it take the place of Catholic Confession? I asked this question on another thread and never got an answer.

Actually, I’m pretty sure that both Cat and I answered that question for you.

 

[Avila123]

I have a one man answer for you: John Martignoni. He can be found at the Bible Christian Society. He sends me a daily email of some of his apologetic and he’s really good. I like his style myself. He is also on Queen of Peace radio which you can listen to over the Internet. I bet if you downloaded some of his stuff into your MP3 player and listened to him on your rides to and from work, within a very short time you’d have more than one answer for your evangelical relatives. He really is worth your time.

Glenda

Thank you. I checked out his site, liked the suggested replies to questions and have added it to my bookmarks.

 

[AbideWithMe]

They started to go to a local independent Christian Fellowship Church and when they moved, they joined a Citygate Church which seems to have strong links with the Bethel Church Redding, California. They also now go to an Evangelical Anglican Church.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether the real issue is that he is hurt and does not understand why I reverted to Catholicism and did not rejoin the Evangelicals. And to add to his confusion, I am thoroughly enjoying the whole experience (even learning painful lessons).

Avila—Was that City Gate Salisbury in the UK? I found some Citygate churches in the UK which are part of the Evangelical Alliance, and from my admittedly cursory reading, they looked like fairly standard Evangelical churches.

Then I found City Gate Salisbury which has ties to Bethel Church in California. Hmm…that looks like a can of worms to me, in that Bethel Church seems to be involved in the Word of Faith movement, which is really problematic. City Gate Salisbury is Charismatic, which is fine, but any Word of Faith influence is not, IMO.

If they’re going to an Evangelical Anglican church now, having left a Word of Faith church, honestly, if I were Catholic, I wouldn’t stir things up unless they start it.

Edit: I see you say they are going to both churches, and haven’t left the City Gate church with ties to Bethel Church Redding?

 

[Avila123]

Thanks for your help and support. I am a lot more confident now that I have some resources to draw on and hopefully will be able to move the conversation positively towards the common ground, respect and consideration.

Reference the comment about church hopping, I suspect my sister-in-law is attracted to the Anglican Evangelical Church as she was brought up Anglican.

God bless you all.

 

[PJM]

=Avila123;11537782]Sorry I cut the post for space reasons. Thank you. I have read copied and pasted and will read a few more times so that I can calmly state the Church’s teachings with biblical references and loving kindness.

You can’t be over-prepared, and be sure to PRAY MUCH!

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[ltwin]

Then I found City Gate Salisbury which has ties to Bethel Church in California. Hmm…that looks like a can of worms to me, in that Bethel Church seems to be involved in the Word of Faith movement, which is really problematic. City Gate Salisbury is Charismatic, which is fine, but any Word of Faith influence is not, IMO.

Yeath, Bethel is a cross between Word of Faith and the Toronto Blessing (if anyone knows what that is).

They have great contemporary worship music, but they love to highlight some very odd practices. These are the people that talk about gold dust falling on people while they worship God. I think Bethel calls it “the glory cloud.” It’s bizarre.

 

[JustaServant]

Actually, I’m pretty sure that both Cat and I answered that question for you.

You probably did and it got lost in the thread, I’ll have to look it up.

 

[Avila123]

Originally Posted by AbideWithMe View Post
Then I found City Gate Salisbury which has ties to Bethel Church in California. Hmm…that looks like a can of worms to me, in that Bethel Church seems to be involved in the Word of Faith movement, which is really problematic. City Gate Salisbury is Charismatic, which is fine, but any Word of Faith influence is not, IMO

Yes that is the one. It is my brother who raises things as I don’t have the confidence to start the conversation on faith as he has (in the past) appeared so knowledgeable, whereas, now he seems less grounded. However, I have to be honest and say that it is a blessing for me as I am learning more on so many different levels e.g. the Bible, Catholicism, self restraint and loving consideration.

By the way Cat, I will read the book by Thomas Howard - I got the kindle version.

 

[batman1973]

Just thought I would pick up on that one as I knocked out some words to cut the post. For me it wasn’t so good because I got the impression that it was read 3 chapters full stop and they were a bit startled when a usually quick and avid reader admitted they could only read the Bible very slowly, sometimes meditating on a short phrase for days on end. The downside to Lectio Divina is that one can delight in the detail and lose the bigger picture (hence my sign up to Bible Study). It just puzzled me as I find it difficult to believe any Christian simply religiously reads 3 chapters a day or that they don’t fall into Lectio Divina. My sister in law found it intriguing (she called it prayerfully reading) and seemed a bit wistful. If she hadn’t shut my brother up quickly, I had the feeling that I was going to be accused of heresy.

Lectio Divina is a very proper way of calling it. Many Christian friends that I have make it a practice to read the whole Bible in a year. There are even bibles to help you do this (And, yes, there’s a Catholic version. I have one that’s the NRSV with a nihil obstat and Imprimatur)

 

[graceandglory]

1. Evangelicals don’t sin. If they think they made a mistake they just move on. The idea of full knowledge, remorse at offending God and repentance and wanting to restore the relationship with Him seemed an odd concept and irrelevant to a saved person.

This is so true. While they talk about confession, in practice it is super rare, unless the person was a cradle Catholic. It’s also a marriage killer. I think it would be of great benefit to evangelicals to learn how to do an act of contrition and an examination of conscience.

 

[AbideWithMe]

This is so true. While they talk about confession, in practice it is super rare, unless the person was a cradle Catholic. It’s also a marriage killer. I think it would be of great benefit to evangelicals to learn how to do an act of contrition and an examination of conscience.

Oh it goodness sake, it is not true. Apart from some abberant teachers, Evangelicals certainly are taught to confess to God and to each other; we also examine our consciences and express contrition and repentance.

 

[ltwin]

Oh it goodness sake, it is not true. Apart from some abberant teachers, Evangelicals certainly are taught to confess to God and to each other; we also examine our consciences and express contrition and repentance.

Thank you for saying that.

Oddly, for all the Catholics who say “evangelicals don’t confess their sins”, books have been written about how evangelical confession has seeped into American popular culture and have become a requirement for politicians whenever they do something bad.

The Art of the Public Grovel: Sexual Sin and Public Confession in America by Susan Wise Bauer

 

[PJM]

=ltwin;11539289]Thank you for saying that.

Oddly, for all the Catholics who say “evangelicals don’t confess their sins”, books have been written about how evangelical confession has seeped into American popular culture and have become a requirement for politicians whenever they do something bad.

The Art of the Public Grovel: Sexual Sin and Public Confession in America by Susan Wise Bauer

My friend, that is nice and makes you feel good; BUT does it actually get your sins forgiven?

I SUSPECT not

It has to be done GOD"S WAY.

Please read:
1 John 1:8-10
1 John 5:16-17

& John 20:19-23 WHICH IS GOD"S WAY:thumbsup:

And as a FYI: Christ was just following OT Tradition of using priest for sin-forgiveness

Lev.4:
[20] Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.
[26] And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven.
[31] And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a pleasing odor to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev.5
[13] Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering."

Lev.6
[7] and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

Christ only perfected the practice:thumbsup:

 

[AbideWithMe]

The Art of the Public Grovel: Sexual Sin and Public Confession in America by Susan Wise Bauer

She’s a good writer.

 

[ltwin]

My friend, that is nice and makes you feel good; BUT does it actually get your sins forgiven?

I SUSPECT not

Well, I’m not trying to convince you or anyone. I’m trying to clear up a misconception that evangelicals talk a lot about confession of sins but in practice never do it and that we need to “learn” the benefits of contrition and examination of conscience.

I’ll admit that the people who inspired the OP’s post definitely do need to learn the benefits of contrition. But they don’t represent all or even the typical evangelical Christian. They sound rather confused.

The fact is that confession of sins and examination of conscience is already a part of the evangelical tradition. Whether you believe our way of confession actually grants us forgiveness and pardon for our sins, that is another question entirely.