Looking for Help with Discussion with Evangelicals

[PJM]

=ltwin;11539797]Well, I’m not trying to convince you or anyone. I’m trying to clear up a misconception that evangelicals talk a lot about confession of sins but in practice never do it and that we need to “learn” the benefits of contrition and examination of conscience.

I’ll admit that the people who inspired the OP’s post definitely do need to learn the benefits of contrition. But they don’t represent all or even the typical evangelical Christian. They sound rather confused.

The fact is that confession of sins and examination of conscience is already a part of the evangelical tradition. Whether you believe our way of confession actually grants us forgiveness and pardon for our sins, that is another question entirely.

My DEAR friend,
I do understand and appreciate that you’re not trying to convince me THANK you.

I was pointing out to what seemingly is obvious:

There is Only ONE True God [Triune]l

One true God can and DOES have Just One set of faith beliefs: even God can’t hold or abide contrary [even contradictory] positions on the same long defined issues. AND God did not wait over 1,000 years to make evident His One True Faith [Eph. 4:4-8]

Following OT traditions of having ONLY ONE “chosen people” [Exo. 6:7] Christ choose to establish ONLY ONE Church. Again He did not wait more than 1,000 YEARS to do so

Then also following OT Traditions of choosing ONLY One man to lead we had:
Abram, Moses, the Judges, the Kings like David, the Prophets like Isaiah, then John the Baptist, then Jesus who choose Peter [Mt.16:15-19]

So I was sharing with you what GOD’S truth is.

GOD WILL MAKE FINAL JUDGMENT BASED NOT ON WHAT WE MEN CHOOSE TO ACCEPT AND BELIEVE; BUT RATHER WHAT HE GOD MAKES POSSIBLE FOR US TO KNOW AND BELIEVEE. AMEN:thumbsup:

The Holy Spirit led you to CAF for this very reason

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[lightbeamrider]

1. O.S.A.S. is IMHO false doctrine, I’ll let an O.S.A.S. person tackle that. However, a true repentant person I’m sure can get into heaven.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

It is important for Catholics to know about these subjects: First, Catholics are often attacked by Calvinists who misunderstand the Catholic position on these issues. Second, Catholics often misunderstand the teaching of their own Church on predestination. Third, in recent years there has been a large number of Calvinists who have become Catholics [8]. By understanding Calvinism better, Catholics can help more Calvinists make the jump.

 

[Avila123]

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

Thanks. I have had a first read and will go through it slowly.

To follow on from my original Post, I received a card from my sister in law (sent 1st class post) today, full of thanks for the evening. Normally, we just say thank you when leaving. So I think that she may have been a bit concerned about my brother (he wasn’t a 100% that evening). However, I will continue with all the references as it is clear that I need to be able to quietly and confidently defend the faith with due consideration for the person to whom I am talking to. It seems that God has decided that I need to do a lot more homework.

 

[Zooey]

Well, I’m an evangelical Christian, and I find what you are describing to be quite troubling. It’s not just troubling, but it is bad doctrine and harmful to spiritual formation. This is not Evangelical theology. It’s just bad theology.

Bad theology.

Hmm . . . some of this stuff just sounds petty. I hope you don’t think all evangelicals are like this.

Yes, this is typically evangelical and Protestant teaching. This is why it will be very difficult to justify to your family members the sacrificial view of the Catholic Mass.

As an evangelical, I too am troubled by the lack of basic Christian knowledge and charity displayed by your loved ones. I don’t have any resources to help you present a Catholic apologetic, but if I were in your situation I would definitely be looking for biblically informed and well reasoned educational material. I’d also suggest they attend another church that did not teach such serious errors about sin and how we reconcile ourselves to God.

I agree.

I don’t understand why they think that is strange. Meditating on the Word is a well respected spiritual discipline among evangelicals. The Holy Spirit can take one passage of Scripture and illuminate it for us, showing us new aspects of it that perhaps we’ve never considered before.

Bethel Church is a Pentecostal Church that participates in the “New Apostolic Reformation” and other fringe Prophetic Movements. That is very different from an evangelical Anglican Church. However, neither of those traditions teach that Christians do not sin.

They seem to be church hopping. But its a very radical form of church hopping. Usually, you kind of stay in the same tradition, but they seem to be jumping around all over the place.

Agreed–again.

Yeath, Bethel is a cross between Word of Faith and the Toronto Blessing (if anyone knows what that is).

They have great contemporary worship music, but they love to highlight some very odd practices. These are the people that talk about gold dust falling on people while they worship God. I think Bethel calls it “the glory cloud.” It’s bizarre.

Agreed.
)I just seem to keep agreeing with you, Itwin!!)

OP: We have a very knowledgable fellow here called Church Militant. He has a blog with answers to many of your questions. You might do a search of his posts on some of these topics.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

On the issue of confession, several Evangelical posters have pointed out on other threads that there is, in deed, opportunities for confession. Communion rails for kneeling in prayer and ‘altar calls’ are examples.

 

[PJM]

=lightbeamrider;11541132]ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

Originally Posted by batman1973 View Post
2. O.S.A.S. is IMHO false doctrine, I’ll let an O.S.A.S. person tackle that. However, a true repentant person I’m sure can get into heaven.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

That dear friend is not God’s teaching and therefore its not what we Catholics teach.

This presumption [itself a sin] is that man can choose how salvation will occur and NOT reply on what God Commands and desires. SORRY folks, but that is dreaming and hoping. It’s not going to happen except in those rare cases where God has not made it possible for one to KNOW Him.

1 John 1: 8-10 " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity**. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.**

1 John 5: 16-17 " He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death:[SPIRITUAL DEATH] for that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

jN. 20: 19-23 " Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you.** As the Father hath sent me, I also send you**. [MEANS WITH CHRIST OWN POWER & AUTHORITY] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." THIS IS THE ONLY WAY SINS ARE FORGIVEN. If you doubt this read Mt.10:1-8.

It is important for Catholics to know about these subjects: First, Catholics are often attacked by Calvinists who misunderstand the Catholic position on these issues. Second, Catholics often misunderstand the teaching of their own Church on predestination. Third, in recent years there has been a large number of Calvinists who have become Catholics [8]. By understanding Calvinism better, Catholics can help more Calvinists make the jump.

**The Catholic position on "predestination " is:

It cannot and does not exist. WHY?**

Because it denies God having to be “Good and Perfect” [a god who would choose to prejudge people for Hell can’t be either]

Because it denies man his natural God given right to choose to love or hate God [SEE Isaiah 43: verses 7 &21] and to choose for themselves by our lives choices; heaven or hell.

Where do Calvinist go wrong?

1. Not following God.s one Faith in His One Church
2. Presuming to know and better than God
3. Confusing God’s PRE- KNOWLEDGE as God’s choice; when it is only knowing; NOT causing one’s personal choice for hell.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[lightbeamrider]

Originally Posted by batman1973 View Post
2. O.S.A.S. is IMHO false doctrine, I’ll let an O.S.A.S. person tackle that. However, a true repentant person I’m sure can get into heaven.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

That dear friend is not God’s teaching and therefore its not what we Catholics teach.

This presumption [itself a sin] is that man can choose how salvation will occur and NOT reply on what God Commands and desires. SORRY folks, but that is dreaming and hoping. It’s not going to happen except in those rare cases where God has not made it possible for one to KNOW Him.

1 John 1: 8-10 " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity**. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.**

1 John 5: 16-17 " He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death:[SPIRITUAL DEATH] for that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

jN. 20: 19-23 " Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you.** As the Father hath sent me, I also send you**. [MEANS WITH CHRIST OWN POWER & AUTHORITY] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." THIS IS THE ONLY WAY SINS ARE FORGIVEN. If you doubt this read Mt.10:1-8.

**The Catholic position on "predestination " is:

It cannot and does not exist. WHY?**

Because it denies God having to be “Good and Perfect” [a god who would choose to prejudge people for Hell can’t be either]

Because it denies man his natural God given right to choose to love or hate God [SEE Isaiah 43: verses 7 &21] and to choose for themselves by our lives choices; heaven or hell.

Where do Calvinist go wrong?

1. Not following God.s one Faith in His One Church
2. Presuming to know and better than God
3. Confusing God’s PRE- KNOWLEDGE as God’s choice; when it is only knowing; NOT causing one’s personal choice for him.

Perhaps you should take it all to EWTN.

thebereancall.org/content/july-2012-classic

There is no question as to the important role Augustine played in molding Calvin’s thinking, theology, and actions. This is particularly true concerning the key foundations of Calvinism. Warfield refers to Calvin and Augustine as “two extraordinarily gifted men [who] tower like pyramids over the scene of history.” 19 Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion make repeated favorable references to Augustine, frequently citing his writings as authoritative and using the expression, “Confirmed by the authority of Augustine.” 20 Calvin often credits Augustine with having formulated key concepts, which he then expounds in his Institutes . The following are but a very small sampling of such references:

If all men are enabled with the ability to choose or reject Christ then in the final analysis it is man who saves through choice and the death and resurrection of Christ is reduced to nothing more than foreplay. Can the pre-knowledge of God be thwarted? Don’t get exited with all your caps and red letters. Take it up with the Catholic sites i have referenced.

 

[SteveVH]

The fact is that confession of sins and examination of conscience is already a part of the evangelical tradition. Whether you believe our way of confession actually grants us forgiveness and pardon for our sins, that is another question entirely.

I think the difference lies in what one believes is being accomplished. A friend of mine may confess a sin to me and I will be happy to speak with him and even point him in the right direction. But I cannot absolve him and he does not receive the grace found in the sacrament.

The point is, even having our sins forgiven is not enough. The grace we receive through the sacrament of Reconciliation is transforming. We must not only be forgiven but we must be transformed by the presence of Christ dwelling within us, resulting in an increase in holiness. We must be completely transformed before we enter heaven; we must be perfectly holy. Of course, that is why, through the mercy of God, we have purgatory.

The Apostles and their successors received the authority to forgive sins (John 20:23). Why would Jesus do this if it was not the manner in which he desired for us to be forgiven? It is quite the thing when you set out a period of time to really examine your conscience, drawing to mind all of the ways in which we have offended God, our neighbor and ourselves; in our thoughts and in our words, in what we have done and in what we have failed to do. And then to honestly and openly confess those sins, and hear the words of absolution. Amazing experience for me each and every time. God is so good. Christ’s wisdom in giving this sacrament to the Church becomes abundantly evident.

While I have heard many who tell me that they confess their sins directly to God, the reality is, speaking as a human being, that we many times become comfortable in our sins to the point that we no longer consider them sins and therefore feel we have nothing to confess. Yet our sins remain, nonetheless. I find this tendency in myself which is why I frequent the confessional. And when I leave there, even the smallest offense against God stands out. We become aware.

 

[ltwin]

I think the difference lies in what one believes is being accomplished. A friend of mine may confess a sin to me and I will be happy to speak with him and even point him in the right direction. But I cannot absolve him and he does not receive the grace found in the sacrament.

The point is, even having our sins forgiven is not enough. The grace we receive through the sacrament of Reconciliation is transforming. We must not only be forgiven but we must be transformed by the presence of Christ dwelling within us, resulting in an increase in holiness. We must be completely transformed before we enter heaven; we must be perfectly holy. Of course, that is why, through the mercy of God, we have purgatory.

I think you’ll find that much of this same though lies behind the importance of the altar in many evangelical/revivalist Protestant traditions. Beyond simply becoming converted, we go to the altar (which can be anywhere, not just in church) to become living sacrifices, to be purged of sin,and transformed from glory to glory. The absolution comes directly from God, as does his grace.

While I have heard many who tell me that they confess their sins directly to God, the reality is, speaking as a human being, that we many times become comfortable in our sins to the point that we no longer consider them sins and therefore feel we have nothing to confess. Yet our sins remain, nonetheless. I find this tendency in myself which is why I frequent the confessional. And when I leave there, even the smallest offense against God stands out. We become aware.

Yes, this is all true. In many evangelical/revivalistic churches, the church services act as a sort of confessional. Often, the preaching is about sin, and the Holy Spirit will convict people of their sins (and not just new converts but the already converted) who will come to the altar to repent.

I’ve seen Christian couples who were shacking up run to the altars weeping and moaning in despair over their sin. I’ve even been in services where teenages spontaneously stand up and start confessing sins right in front of the whole congregation. There have been times when footwashing services became occasions where sins were confessed and people in the church reconciled.

My point is, that while we have no structured format for one on one confession and absolution from a priest (which we obviously believe we don’t need), confession, forgiveness, and inward transformation is just as important and real to evangelical Protestants.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Steve—I think the real difference between confession in Catholic belief and confession in Evangelical belief comes down to one thing.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but, from reading the relevant sections of the CCC, asking in detail on another Catholic forum, and reading here and elsewhere, I believe the Catholic teaching is that a mortal sin cannot be forgiven without confession to a priest or, alternatively, having perfect contrition with the resolve to seek actual priestly confession as soon as possible. Since, however, a person usually can never be sure if they have perfect contrition, a person should not assume they’ve been forgiven by God till they go to confession. (How’s that as a brief summary?)

Evangelicals in general see confession as something given to us for our own good (so we’re not hiding our sins or rationalizing them away) and also to restore the openness and cleanness of our relationship with God. In that we use confession somewhat similarly to Catholics, I believe. The step we don’t take is to believe we cannot be forgiven of a mortal sin apart from confession to a priest or the alternative of having perfect contrition. From my perspective, that single step-not-taken is a huge one.

 

[classical_hero]

What exactly is an evangelical? After viewing this thread it seems like there are many ways how the word is being used.

 

[ltwin]

What exactly is an evangelical? After viewing this thread it seems like there are many ways how the word is being used.

This a complicated topic. A broad definition of Evangelicalism is a confluence of Pietism, Presbyterianism, and Puritanism. This produces a warm-hearted spirituality (i.e. experiential religion), doctrinal precisionism, and individualistic introspection. There are different strains of Evangelicalism that emphasize these different traits to varying degrees. Some sub-types of Evangelicalism are:

Fundamentalism, Neo-evangelicalism, the Holiness Movement, Pentecostalism, the Charismatic Movement, and various forms of African-American and Hispanic evangelical types.

Mark Noll, an evangelical scholar, can do a lot better at explaining it than I can. He did so in a PBS Frontline Interview. He says,

“Evangelical” designates both a trait of churches, religious practices, networks. It designates a certain series of convictions or actions, practices. . . . .

. . . . . So the word is plastic. The concept is not precise. Evangelical movements have been identified and identifiable. Evangelicals recognize each other, often by how they sing hymns, and what hymns. But it’s not a hard and fast designation.

The word “evangelical” does designate a limited range of beliefs and practices. But it’s not a word like Baptist or Presbyterian or Roman Catholic, because its designation is for a certain characteristic way of being religious.

Evangelicals tend to operate against tradition, but there are some traditional evangelicals. Evangelicals historically have been opposed to the Roman Catholic Church. Today, there are Roman Catholics who call themselves evangelicals. So the word is flexible, but it does have a core of meanings that have been associated with it. . . . . .

. . . . . . George Bush is an evangelical of a certain type. There are evangelicals in the mainline churches, of which he would be one. There are churches that have a mega-church style, of which his would be one. There are evangelical groups that emphasize the kind of therapeutic rescue that his group of supporters in Midland provided for him after he turned from alcoholism.

That style would be very different than, say the reform Christians of western Michigan, or the Pentecostal churches of downtown Chicago, or even, in many ways, the inter-denominational evangelicals of Wheaton College.

Read the whole thing.

Baptists, typically, would be included under the label of Evangelicalism.

From the OP’s description of her family members, they’ve gone from Charismatic styled evangelical churches to evangelical Anglican churches. So, it seems they’ve traveled quite the spectrum.

 

[AbideWithMe]

This a complicated topic. A broad definition of Evangelicalism is a confluence of Pietism, Presbyterianism, and Puritanism. This produces a warm-hearted spirituality (i.e. experiential religion), doctrinal precisionism, and individualistic introspection. There are different strains of Evangelicalism that emphasize these different traits to varying degrees. Some sub-types of Evangelicalism are:

Fundamentalism, Neo-evangelicalism, the Holiness Movement, Pentecostalism, the Charismatic Movement, and various forms of African-American and Hispanic evangelical types.

Mark Noll, an evangelical scholar, can do a lot better at explaining it than I can. He did so in a PBS Frontline Interview

To that I’d like to add, using the confluence image, that in many ways the waters coming together don’t mix entirely. For example, an Evangelical coming from a Presbyterian source will most likely retain Calvinist beliefs; one coming from a Wesleyan Methodist source will likely have Arminian beliefs about the freedom of the will, aided by God’s prevenient grace. Then again, there can be some muddying and theological cross-pollinating going on between types of Evangelicals (to thoroughly mix metaphors), so it can be hard to classify some Evangelicals. It’s difficult if not impossible to make blanket statements about Evangelicals.

Another image that might help is to think of people coming together from different directions to stand under a big tent. In the center of the tent is the cross, and, at least in theory, that’s where our focus is meant to be. The different directions we’re coming from refer back to the earlier Protestant churches, so, if you don’t mind borrowing my weird way of concretizing concepts via imagination, the Anglicans and Methodists Evangelicals are coming from one direction; the Presbyterian and Reformed Evangelicals are coming from another direction; the Baptists are coming from yet another direction, and so on. So we meet under the big tent and, of course, converse, criticize, and argue, as well as fellowship and work together. (There, I just described Evangelical teenagers at an inter-denominational summer camp. Except that I forgot to say they’d sing Kum Ba Ya. I like Kum Ba Yah. )

 

[AbideWithMe]

Itwin, if I’d known you were going to add more to your post, I wouldn’t have had to admit I like Kum Ba Yah.

 

[ltwin]

To that I’d like to add, using the confluence image, that in many ways the waters coming together don’t mix entirely. For example, an Evangelical coming from a Presbyterian source will most likely retain Calvinist beliefs; one coming from a Wesleyan Methodist source will likely have Arminian beliefs about the freedom of the will, aided by God’s prevenient grace. Then again, there can be some muddying and theological cross-pollinating going on between types of Evangelicals (to thoroughly mix metaphors), so it can be hard to classify some Evangelicals. It’s difficult if not impossible to make blanket statements about Evangelicals.

Yes, the different streams don’t mix entirely. It’s been called “hodge-podge.” You have the Wesleyan Methodists who follow John Wesley (an Anglican priest) in being Arminian. And then you have the much smaller and less known Calvinistic Methodists who followed George Whitefield (also an Anglican priest!). And then you get traditions like Baptists who have both Calvinist and Arminians (many times in the same Conventions!)

 

[ltwin]

Itwin, if I’d known you were going to add more to your post, I wouldn’t have had to admit I like Kum Ba Yah.

Sorry.

But you’re right. There is a lot of cross pollination. The only time I went to a Christian summer camp, it was sponsored by members of the Wesleyan Church. They kept passing out t-shirts advertising Southern Wesleyan University.

And then when I was a child my parents made it a habit to send us to vacation Bible school. We went to a couple Baptist churches, once we went to the Nazarene Church, and once when we were young we went to a Methodist Church. It was never seen as being in a “different” church. It was all just church.

And I will never forget the year that our Pentecostal church’s praise and worship team was invited to do the singing at the county-wide revival. It was in one of the bigger Methodist churches in the county. The pastor begin singing a old fashoned hymn, “Let there by revival in my soul” with absolutely no instruments. Then our praise them got up there with our drums, guitars, and just loud and energetic singing. The Methodist pastor hid in his office the whole time they sang he couldn’t stand it!

Ecumenicalism can be interesting.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Yes, the different streams don’t mix entirely. It’s been called “hodge-podge.” You have the Wesleyan Methodists who follow John Wesley (an Anglican priest) in being Arminian. And then you have the much smaller and less known Calvinistic Methodists who followed George Whitefield (also an Anglican priest!). And then you get traditions like Baptists who have both Calvinist and Arminians (many times in the same Conventions!)

There’s a web comic by a Methodist youth pastor called “Wesley Bros: Submitting to be More Vile”. Right now the current page goes to a strip with a Christmas truce between Whitefield and the Wesley’s, but the prior ones have George Whitefield and John Wesley contesting Calvinism and Arminianism, plus a “Fast Off” which is pretty funny. www.wesleybros.com/

 

[andrewstx]

Yes, the different streams don’t mix entirely. It’s been called “hodge-podge.” You have the Wesleyan Methodists who follow John Wesley (an Anglican priest) in being Arminian. And then you have the much smaller and less known Calvinistic Methodists who followed George Whitefield (also an Anglican priest!). And then you get traditions like Baptists who have both Calvinist and Arminians (many times in the same Conventions!)

Are there Calvinistic Methodists in the U.S.A.? I know there are many of them in Wales, but here?

I never met a Methodist who wasn’t Arminian.

 

[ltwin]

Are there Calvinistic Methodists in the U.S.A.? I know there are many of them in Wales, but here?

I never met a Methodist who wasn’t Arminian.

I don’t think so. I think all the big Methodist and Wesleyan denominations in the US are Arminian.

But George Whitefield was very popular in colonial America. His legacy lives on in more ways than one, haha.

 

[Zooey]

Yes, the different streams don’t mix entirely. It’s been called “hodge-podge.” You have the Wesleyan Methodists who follow John Wesley (an Anglican priest) in being Arminian. And then you have the much smaller and less known Calvinistic Methodists who followed George Whitefield (also an Anglican priest!). And then you get traditions like Baptists who have both Calvinist and Arminians (many times in the same Conventions!)

Most Anglican priests in that day & time were, in fact, Calvinist. Some were hyper-Calvinist.
One of the Wesleys’ earliest goals for their work was to try to provide a counterbalance to that tendency.