Looking for Help with Discussion with Evangelicals

[Cat]

There’s a web comic by a Methodist youth pastor called “Wesley Bros: Submitting to be More Vile”. Right now the current page goes to a strip with a Christmas truce between Whitefield and the Wesley’s, but the prior ones have George Whitefield and John Wesley contesting Calvinism and Arminianism, plus a “Fast Off” which is pretty funny. www.wesleybros.com/

That’s so funny!

I have to play “Hark The Herald Angels Sing” on the organ today at my parish (we’re doing a carol sing-along this afternoon), and my daughter is going to read the origin of this hymn. It’s just like the cartoon!

 

[Cat]

What exactly is an evangelical? After viewing this thread it seems like there are many ways how the word is being used.

I spent the first 47 years of my life Evangelical Protestant. I agree with everything that Itwin and AbideWithMe have posted. But here’s a short and sweet definition–an Evangelical Protestant always has the Great Commission in their minds and hearts–it is their goal to do everything they possibly can to make Matthew 28: 18-20 a reality.

Have you ever watched The Simpsons on television? Ned Flanders is an Evangelical, and IMO, he pretty much nails it.

There is an “Evangelical Protestant” culture that Ned Flanders illustrates beautifully on The Simpsons. I’ve watched the show for years, and I think that they treat Ned with great respect on that show. He’s often presented as wise, kind, generous, friendly, and heroic. He’s probably the most “human” character on the show.

But Evangelical Protestant culture varies greatly between Evangelical Protestant churches. E.g., there are still plenty of Evangelical Protestant churches that teach that dancing, drinking, going to theater, and wearing makeup is “sinful” or at least questionable. But there are also plenty of Evangelical Protestant churches that not only teach that these practices are okie dokie, but that meet in bars, sponsor dances, have their own theater or movie companies, and have beautiful women with stylish clothing and makeup in their churches.

So you can’t really pin “Evangelical Protestant” culture down or come up with a “One Size Fits All” definition, other than the Great Commission. To any Evangelical, the only reason why we are still down here on this earth is to evangelize–to preach the Gospel to all the world, baptize, and make disciples.

I think that’s why so many people are attracted to Evangelical Protestant churches–there is an actual “purpose” in going to church. So many people quit churches/religion because they just don’t see the point. It doesn’t seem relevant to them in their daily lives.

But in Evangelical churches, you are given a “purpose”–to help fulfill the Great Commission. You are given a “job” to help to accomplish that purpose. The “job” is something that you are good at and like to do; e.g., make music, teach a class of pre-schoolers, work with teenagers, counsel in a pregnancy life care center, do the accounting for the church, cook in the church soup kitchen, put together a crew to build wells in 3rd World countries, create visual art, visit senior citizens who are shut in. etc., etc.

You see, when we are “needed” and we’re actually missed when we’re gone, we tend to go to church. But when we aren’t needed and no one even knows our names, we tend to feel that there is no purpose in going to church.

I think that Catholic parishes could learn from the Evangelical model of “church.”
I personally think that many Catholic churches fall under the banner of “Evangelical.” I know mine does! There are plenty of opportunities in my parish to “get busy” and help fulfill the Great Commission.

 

[glendab]

Hello Lightbeamrider. What an unusual name. Kinda nice.

If all men are enabled with the ability to choose or reject Christ then in the final analysis it is man who saves through choice and the death and resurrection of Christ is reduced to nothing more than foreplay. Can the pre-knowledge of God be thwarted? Don’t get exited with all your caps and red letters. Take it up with the Catholic sites i have referenced.

What an awful thing to say though! God is a choice. One of my own prayers in time of temptation is this: “Jesus, I choose You!” Free will is our gift FROM God, what we do with it is our gift back to Him! Without free will, we couldn’t choose Him. He is glorified when we choose Him. All men are enabled to choose or reject Christ, but some in ignorance of Him know not what they are choosing but choose Him in doing the good instead of the evil. That’s how invincible ignorance works. Without a free will to choose the good with, they’d never see Heaven.

Another point is this: God’s Life Death and Resurrection as Jesus Christ is not (I cannot even say the word, you used one that if taken literally would be a blasphemy!) as you said it is - something belittled.

I’m wondering what you mean by “pre-knowledge of God.” Can you explain that?

God Himself cannot take away man’s free will. Take for instance marriage. According to the Catholic Church, it cannot be entered into if both parties aren’t CHOOSING it of their own free will. I think you begin to get my point.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Very well said Steve. Very good.

I think the difference lies in what one believes is being accomplished. A friend of mine may confess a sin to me and I will be happy to speak with him and even point him in the right direction. But I cannot absolve him and he does not receive the grace found in the sacrament.

The point is, even having our sins forgiven is not enough. The grace we receive through the sacrament of Reconciliation is transforming. We must not only be forgiven but we must be transformed by the presence of Christ dwelling within us, resulting in an increase in holiness. We must be completely transformed before we enter heaven; we must be perfectly holy. Of course, that is why, through the mercy of God, we have purgatory.

The Apostles and their successors received the authority to forgive sins (John 20:23). Why would Jesus do this if it was not the manner in which he desired for us to be forgiven? It is quite the thing when you set out a period of time to really examine your conscience, drawing to mind all of the ways in which we have offended God, our neighbor and ourselves; in our thoughts and in our words, in what we have done and in what we have failed to do. And then to honestly and openly confess those sins, and hear the words of absolution. Amazing experience for me each and every time. God is so good. Christ’s wisdom in giving this sacrament to the Church becomes abundantly evident.

While I have heard many who tell me that they confess their sins directly to God, the reality is, speaking as a human being, that we many times become comfortable in our sins to the point that we no longer consider them sins and therefore feel we have nothing to confess. Yet our sins remain, nonetheless. I find this tendency in myself which is why I frequent the confessional. And when I leave there, even the smallest offense against God stands out. We become aware.

I will second your question that points to the obvious: why WOULD God give the ability to bind and loose sins to His newly forming Church if He didn’t want that particular Ministry to happen in His Church? Can the Evangelicals explain it? But before they’d try I’d add this: In the Old Testament we find many examples of how sins were dealt with. Some one sinned, then he traveled to Jerusalem if he didn’t live there, then he asked the priest at the Temple what his penance was, i.e. two turtle doves, a lamb, a ram, some wine or oil, etc. There was always a sacrifice for sins. It cost something. The sinner had to pay.

Then along came Jesus, the Lamb of God Who became our sacrifice for our sins. No longer were the sacrifices of the Temple applicable to sins and they died out. Even the Jews of today no longer sacrifice animals. BUT IT WAS DONE. Blood had to be shed for sin.

So what is my point to the Evangelical who forgives his own sins simply by enumerating them to himself and God? If God asked for something to be done by the sinner under the Old Testament after the sinner in question TOLD the priest at the Temple what he’d done, why do they think it isn’t transformed under the New Covenant into the Sacrament of Confession? It is the same only God is the Lamb that was slain already and we come to the Sacrament to do the same thing: tell the priest what we did, so he can apply God’s Holy Blood to our wounds in our souls caused by our sins. That is what happens. And as has been said by Steve very nicely, there is still the matter of expiation and amendment. The window is still broken and needs repair and we need to co-operate with God’s saving grace and live better lives to become holy.

I’ve probably said too much. Oh well. I’m a woman and we talk and talk and talk. Just my opinion.

Glenda

 

[Kliska]

So what is my point to the Evangelical who forgives his own sins simply by enumerating them to himself and God?

Please do be careful here, you don’t have to but this type of statement is not in any way accurate to what an evangelical believes happens. They aren’t forgiving their own sin by enumerating them to God. Every Christian I’ve met knows that only God can forgive sins, that is even the teaching of the RCC as I understand it.

 

[glendab]

Only thing I’d like to ask Itwin at this point is after reading this:

And then when I was a child my parents made it a habit to send us to vacation Bible school. We went to a couple Baptist churches, once we went to the Nazarene Church, and once when we were young we went to a Methodist Church. It was never seen as being in a “different” church. It was all just church…Ecumenicalism can be interesting.

Ummmmmm…would your parents description of all those different denominations being “church” include the Catholic Church? I’m betting that is the one place that is left out of your parents definition of church. Please don’t take that as an insult but an acknowledgement that some Christians don’t consider Catholics Christian. Did they give you any other ideas about church and does it include us Catholics?

Sorry I’m really just curious.

Glenda

 

[Kal2012]

I think it is hard speaking with Evangelicals because we speak different theological languages. I don’t know what they mean when they say, ‘accept Jesus into your heart to be your PERSONAL Saviour.’ What does that even mean?

The key to understanding this phrase is realizing it’s about Jesus becoming your new BFF (best friend forever). Jesus will know you as an individual and work in your life.

Jesus isn’t someone distant, but someone you can have a “personal”, intimate relationship. They don’t realize that people can get the ultimate personal relationship w/Jesus from partaking in the Eucharist every week. (Sadly, that idea didn’t come from me, but a priest I heard on EWTN. However, I love that description of the Eucharist!)

Accepting would be acknowledging, realizing, understanding in the deepest part of your soul that you are a sinner in the eyes of the Lord and you need the forgiveness of Jesus to get into heaven. (I.e. giving you a guilt trip about what a horrible person you are in the eyes of our Lord)

It’s essentially an emotional sales pitch. “You, too, can have a relationship w/Jesus. Just say the sinner’s prayer. It’s Free! That’s right - free! Jesus is standing by - now - for a personal relationship with you - that’s right - “Y-O-U”!” Get it?

(I’m so glad I got some sense and became Catholic! )

 

[Kal2012]

Haven’t you learned yet that saying anything pro-Catholic Church to an Evangelical is like talking to a stone?
I suggest that you abandon any efforts at proselytize Evangels, no matter how closely they may be related to you. You will either lose any religious argument with them or make an enemy of them. That is their nature.

I tend to agree with this because it’s really just a waste of time.

People misinterpret the Bible and a lot of evangelicals just have their talking points and don’t know how to have a discussion outside the talking points. The talking points are supposed to be the “end-all, be-all” of the discussion. It’s hard to have a conversation with someone like that.

 

[ltwin]

Only thing I’d like to ask Itwin at this point is after reading this:

Ummmmmm…would your parents description of all those different denominations being “church” include the Catholic Church? I’m betting that is the one place that is left out of your parents definition of church. Please don’t take that as an insult but an acknowledgement that some Christians don’t consider Catholics Christian. Did they give you any other ideas about church and does it include us Catholics?

Sorry I’m really just curious.

Glenda

Well, I think its a little presumptuous to simply assume that my parents don’t consider Catholics Christians. No, they don’t agree with everything it teaches and would never choose the Catholic Church for themselves. They probably wouldn’t choose an evangelical Anglican church or a Presbyterian church for themselves either. That doesn’t mean they don’t consider those churches Christians.

We would say that those who have been born again, no matter what church they are in, are Christians. This definition differs from the Catholic one, which bases Christianity in baptism. We would not automatically consider someone a Christians simply because they were baptized. That’s the biggest difference.

We have a Catholic cousin who lives one state over so we don’t get to see him often, but his religion has never been an issue. Considering the distance he lives, he and my mother have a close relationship. They actually stayed in our house while here for the holidays. We attended his wedding. It was a little extravagant for our tastes, but Catholicism is not a make-it-or-break-it issue for my family. And I was never taught in church to have this deep seated animosity towards anything “Catholic” that many evangelicals have reported. We’ve never tried to convert him, or “love bomb” him.

Yes, occasionally you do hear people say such and such a Catholic teaching is unbiblical. But that’s nothing special. Evangelicals like to believe that they are biblical people, so it’s nothing out of the ordinary to hear evangelicals comment on the “unbiblicalness” of a host of denominational teachings, including many that are taught by self-professing evangelicals.

From time to time at my church, we get self-professed Catholics wonder in during revivals. They worship with us and then leave. We never attempt to convert them, and usually upon finding out that they’re Catholics, the pastor or speaker will say something like “well, the Holy Spirit can use Catholics too.”

I like to think that I was raised with a legacy of evangelical ecumenicism. It’s not flashy or loud like the type you find in the mainline churches. Yet, its real all the same.

 

[Kal2012]

That’s where the “altar call” comes in. Coming forward to either “get saved” or “get right with God”, a kind of “fundamentalist sacrament”.
Does it take the place of Catholic Confession? I asked this question on another thread and never got an answer.

I would never compare an altar call to Confession. They are two very different things.

The term, “fundamentalist sacrament” raises red flags for me because the former Baptist in me is screaming “Hello! We don’t do sacraments. We aren’t Catholics!”

As a Catholic, I view confession as a lot more sacred than any altar call could ever be. You aren’t swept up in emotion to 'confess", but it’s a very methodical process and there’s a real intent to change your behavior and acknowledge your sins.

I just don’t get how you can even begin to compare the two. I think that’s why nobody has wanted to answer the question. The mentality towards each is so different. It’s comparing something false to something real. I don’t know how else to word it. Maybe someone else can do better than me.

 

[lightbeamrider]

Hello Lightbeamrider. What an unusual name. Kinda nice.

Thank you.

What an awful thing to say though! God is a choice.

Not really. The Bible depicts humans as spiritually dead and the spiritual dead cannot choose spiritual life anymore than the natural dead can choose natural life. Lazarus, for example had nothing to do with his coming back to life. There was no choice. It had everything to do with the Divine command of Jesus. [John 11] Jesus directly refutes your assertion in John 6:44. No one can come to Jesus unless enabled by God. Spiritual death defined as separation from God which is the state of all non believers. Depicted in Eph. 2:1. ‘’…dead in your transgressions and sins…’’ Also in other verses.

Another point is this: God’s Life Death and Resurrection as Jesus Christ is not (I cannot even say the word, you used one that if taken literally would be a blasphemy!) as you said it is - something belittled.

Apologize substitute precursor. It is a logical consequence of your assumptions. You need to make a case. If a child brings home an ‘‘A’’ on a test by making all the correct choices has she not earned her grade?

I’m wondering what you mean by “pre-knowledge of God.” Can you explain that?

I was using the word of the person i responded to in my previous post. The person with all the emboldened print and red letters. Since God knows all things actual and possible [Omniscience] Then God knows all the results of what we view as the future. Gen.1:1
In the beginning [time]
God created the heavens. [Space]
and the Earth. [Matter]
Genesis 1:1 presupposes God outside time.

It is all theory and i read somewhere ?] Catholics are not supposed to argue about it. Besides it is weighty stuff. It is either OSAS or get saved then probationary salvation.

God Himself cannot take away man’s free will.

Why not? God over came the free will of Jonah. He went to opposite way from Ninevah. The enemies of Israel. The so called free will of man subject to to Sovereignty of God.

Take for instance marriage. According to the Catholic Church, it cannot be entered into if both parties aren’t CHOOSING it of their own free will.

So called free will is limited by circumstances beyond our direct control. When a thing is done via free will it is implied they could have acted otherwise. I would like to eat at the steakhouse which is 5 miles away but the McDonalds is just down the street. There is a blizzard outside and my funds are limited because a female bumped me out of my day job because she was having some kind of troubles and my funds are therefore limited. Therefore my free will is largely undermined by circumstances beyond my control. The golden arches it is!
Look at Romans 9. Jacob was selected over Esau and the decision was made before they were born.

Jacob I loved. Esau i hated. [loved less] According to my Catholic Study Bible. This all determined before the birth of either.

 

[ltwin]

I would never compare an altar call to Confession. They are two very different things.

The term, “fundamentalist sacrament” raises red flags for me because the former Baptist in me is screaming “Hello! We don’t do sacraments. We aren’t Catholics!”

As a Catholic, I view confession as a lot more sacred than any altar call could ever be. You aren’t swept up in emotion to 'confess", but it’s a very methodical process and there’s a real intent to change your behavior and acknowledge your sins.

I just don’t get how you can even begin to compare the two. I think that’s why nobody has wanted to answer the question. The mentality towards each is so different. It’s comparing something false to something real. I don’t know how else to word it. Maybe someone else can do better than me.

I don’t think so. And the question has been answered multiple times.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Very well said Steve. Very good.

I will second your question that points to the obvious: why WOULD God give the ability to bind and loose sins to His newly forming Church if He didn’t want that particular Ministry to happen in His Church? Can the Evangelicals explain it?

Glenda, it’s not a matter of saying God doesn’t “want that particular Ministry to happen in His Church”. It’s that Evangelicals don’t believe priestly confession, or “perfect contrition” plus priestly confession at a subsequent date, is the only ordinary means of forgiveness.

So what is my point to the Evangelical who forgives his own sins simply by enumerating them to himself and God? If God asked for something to be done by the sinner under the Old Testament after the sinner in question TOLD the priest at the Temple what he’d done, …

Glenda

I’m going to briefly point out that, based on statements from Jewish posters here (on other threads) and what I’ve learned in my own pretty wide but not exhaustive reading about Judaism, Jews did not have to tell their sins to the priest. Do you have a Jewish reference or reference from a primary or scholarly source that says “the sinner in question TOLD the priest at the Temple what he’d done”?

 

[AbideWithMe]

I don’t think so. And the question has been answered multiple times.

Kal2012__Yes, the question has been answered here as it was also answered on the earlier thread.

I don’t mean this in a snarky way…but I’m surprised when people don’t actually read a moderate-length thread to see if someone else has already responded to a question. I know some of these threads get really long, but this one is still of a readable length at this point.

 

[ltwin]

I don’t think so. And the question has been answered multiple times.

I meant to add more to the post, but I had to cut it short for Sunday dinner.

WHAT HAPPENS AT THE ALTAR?
At the altar we experience: (1) Confession; (2) Change; (3) Consecration/Closeness to God; (4) Communion of the saints; (5) Commissioning into the world.

1. Confession (and forgiveness of our sins)
   In the altar, we confess with our mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead and we are saved (Romans 10:9). There, according to Scripture, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8,9). In the altar, “we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need” (Hebrews 4:16).

1. Change (transformation)
   In an altar of prayer, we are changed and experience the transforming power of God that results in Paul’s declaration, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

A true altar experience with God brings about a noticeable and visible change in our behavior and lifestyle . . .

1. Consecration and Closeness to God
   At the altar we are brought near to God . . .

Here is God’s promise to us as we consecrate ourselves at the altar. . . .

1. Communion of the Saints
   . . . . At the altar, we have that community, a family that surrounds us and includes us in the communion of the saints. There, we understand that we are not alone and that we support one another in our desire for holy living.

Notice how the Scripture expresses this value of community and the communion of the saints: “Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another — and all the more as you see the Day approaching” Hebrews 10:23–25.

1. Commissioning into the World
   In the altar we understand that we are sent by God on mission in His world and there we find His direction for purpose-driven, missional living. . . .

 

[PJM]

=lightbeamrider;11541575]Perhaps you should take it all to EWTN.

thebereancall.org/content/july-2012-classic

If all men are enabled with the ability to choose or reject Christ then in the final analysis it is man who saves through choice and the death and resurrection of Christ is reduced to nothing more than foreplay. Can the pre-knowledge of God be thwarted? Don’t get exited with all your caps and red letters. Take it up with the Catholic sites i have referenced.

EWTN & and I are well acquainted:

I shared what the bible says; here’s the official teachins of our Catholic Church.

780 The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Amazingly: what I shared; the bible and the Catechism all teach the same thing:thumbsup:

God Bless you my friend,
Patrick

 

[glendab]

Hello AbideWithMe,

I’m going to briefly point out that, based on statements from Jewish posters here (on other threads) and what I’ve learned in my own pretty wide but not exhaustive reading about Judaism, Jews did not have to tell their sins to the priest. Do you have a Jewish reference or reference from a primary or scholarly source that says “the sinner in question TOLD the priest at the Temple what he’d done”?

I don’t want to sound trite, but have you ever read the Old Testament? Also read Jesus’ entrance into to the Temple area where the money changers were exchanging their pagan coins for Jewish coins so they could buy the proscribed sacrificial animals with “legal” money. They had traveled there to go to the Temple to have their sins forgiven. Everyone had to go at least once a year.

I’m surprised you have such little knowledge of the life of the Isrealites. It is after all the same life Jesus lived as a Jew all His life. Sorry. my assumption is that folks who read the Bible also read the Old Testament.

As for your knowledge of Jewish practice to day, what do you suppose Jews DO during Purim? How about the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur? They still DO things to atone for sin. We call it Penance as Catholics. Quite a bit of what we do as Catholics is foreshadowed by the things in the Old Covenant. To understand the New Covenant better it really is necessary to understand the Old.

But that really is my opinion. I apologize if I seem insulting. I really am not trying to be.

Glenda

P.S. There was more than one Jew in my family. I am a convert. There still are. They know they need forgiveness.

 

[glendab]

Dear AbideWithMe, Here are some words from the Old testament that give some of the scholarship you asked about. It is from the story of the Scapegoat which by the way, is said by some other scholars to be a foreshadow of Christ.

This is from Leviticus, Chapter 16

16 So he will purify the sanctuary from all the faults the sons of Israel have committed, their transgressions and their uncleanness. With the same ceremony he shall purify the tabernacle that bears the Lord’s record, pitched there amongst them, with all the defilement of their dwellings round about.
17 No one must be there in the tabernacle from the time when the high priest enters the inner sanctuary, to make intercession for himself and his family and the whole people of Israel, till the time when he comes out again. 18 And when he comes out to the altar that stands there in the Lord’s presence, he must make intercession for himself, pouring the blood of bullock and goat all round the horns of it; 19 and so, sprinkling it with his finger seven times, he must make expiation, and cleanse it from all the defilement incurred by the sons of Israel. 20 Sanctuary, and tabernacle, and altar so cleansed, he has still to offer up the goat that is left alive. 21 He must put both hands on its head, confessing all the sins and transgressions and faults Israel has committed, and laying the guilt of them on its head. And there will be a man standing ready to take it into the desert for him; 22 so the goat will carry away all their sins into a land uninhabited, set at large in the desert. 23 Then Aaron will come back to the tabernacle, and take off the vestments he wore when he entered the sanctuary, and leave them there; 24 he will wash on holy ground, and put on his own garments instead. He will come out, and offer his own burnt-sacrifice, and that of the people, making intercession for himself and for the people both at once…

There you have it, plenty being done to atone for sins. It was Mosaic Law. I left out the beginning of the passage where it say that this is an everlasting covenant and must be done in perpetuity. The priests had to do this to make up for the peoples sins and the people knew it and knew if it had been done because the stayed near by watching and waiting. They also knew that if it wasn’t done, the guilt it took away would fall upon them and they didn’t want that. More than once they complained that the sacrifices of the Temple weren’t being made and that caused God to strike them. It really would be worth you while to study the history of the Isrealites in the Old Testament.

Glenda

 

[PJM]

=Cat;11543594]I spent the first 47 years of my life Evangelical Protestant. I agree with everything that Itwin and AbideWithMe have posted. But here’s a short and sweet definition–an Evangelical Protestant always has the Great Commission in their minds and hearts–it is their goal to do everything they possibly can to make Matthew 28: 18-20 a reality.

Have you ever watched The Simpsons on television? Ned Flanders is an Evangelical, and IMO, he pretty much nails it.

There is an “Evangelical Protestant” culture that Ned Flanders illustrates beautifully on The Simpsons. I’ve watched the show for years, and I think that they treat Ned with great respect on that show. He’s often presented as wise, kind, generous, friendly, and heroic. He’s probably the most “human” character on the show.

But Evangelical Protestant culture varies greatly between Evangelical Protestant churches. E.g., there are still plenty of Evangelical Protestant churches that teach that dancing, drinking, going to theater, and wearing makeup is “sinful” or at least questionable. But there are also plenty of Evangelical Protestant churches that not only teach that these practices are okie dokie, but that meet in bars, sponsor dances, have their own theater or movie companies, and have beautiful women with stylish clothing and makeup in their churches.

So you can’t really pin “Evangelical Protestant” culture down or come up with a “One Size Fits All” definition, other than the Great Commission. To any Evangelical, the only reason why we are still down here on this earth is to evangelize–to preach the Gospel to all the world, baptize, and make disciples.

I think that’s why so many people are attracted to Evangelical Protestant churches–there is an actual “purpose” in going to church. So many people quit churches/religion because they just don’t see the point. It doesn’t seem relevant to them in their daily lives.

But in Evangelical churches, you are given a “purpose”–to help fulfill the Great Commission. You are given a “job” to help to accomplish that purpose. The “job” is something that you are good at and like to do; e.g., make music, teach a class of pre-schoolers, work with teenagers, counsel in a pregnancy life care center, do the accounting for the church, cook in the church soup kitchen, put together a crew to build wells in 3rd World countries, create visual art, visit senior citizens who are shut in. etc., etc.

You see, when we are “needed” and we’re actually missed when we’re gone, we tend to go to church. But when we aren’t needed and no one even knows our names, we tend to feel that there is no purpose in going to church.

I think that Catholic parishes could learn from the Evangelical model of “church.”
I personally think that many Catholic churches fall under the banner of “Evangelical.” I know mine does! There are plenty of opportunities in my parish to “get busy” and help fulfill the Great Commission.

Greatly enjoyed your post. Thank you:thumbsup:

But something you said near the top caught my attention.

What I [personally] find so interesting about this is how very specific and precise the language of Christ is:

“YE” [YOU!] God out and teach [addressing only and specifically the Apostles and NOW through them; their Successors, having changed the mandate from ONLY the Jews [Mt. 10:1-8] to NOW the entire World. [Also Mk.16:14-15]. “Whatsoever I TAUGHT TO YOU!”

I find these passages to be among the clearest evidence of One God; One Faith in One Church; and it seems to be glossed over?

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[ltwin]

I don’t want to sound trite, but have you ever read the Old Testament? Also read Jesus’ entrance into to the Temple area where the money changers were exchanging their pagan coins for Jewish coins so they could buy the proscribed sacrificial animals with “legal” money. They had traveled there to go to the Temple to have their sins forgiven. Everyone had to go at least once a year.

But that’s not the same as contemporary Catholic practice in any case. And as I understand it, AbideWithMe is right on target to ask the question to those who see foreshadowing in this. Jewish websites certainly don’t believe confession to or before a priest in connection to sacrifices was in itself needed for forgiveness of sins:

How do Jews obtain forgiveness without sacrifices?
Forgiveness of sins against God alone is simply obtained through repentance and confession of one’s sins in words before God Himself, and amending one’s future conduct according to the halakhah; when one sins against a person (as by theft or injury), he must also do his best to make restitution to the person injured and gain his forgiveness, as well as repenting, confessing, and making amends in future conduct before God. Gentiles may be surprised to learn that this is as fully effective for them as for Jews (which is the main point of the Book of Jonah, of course; see Jonah 3,10, in particular). When the Temple stands, some sins require offerings as explained below in addition to this repentance process, not instead of it; without this repentance process, offerings for sins are totally ineffective, and must be brought again when one has truly repented.
It is important to emphasize that under the Torah, sacrifice was never the exclusive means of obtaining forgiveness, was not in and of itself sufficient to obtain forgiveness, and in certain circumstances was not even effective to obtain forgiveness.

I’m surprised you have such little knowledge of the life of the Isrealites. It is after all the same life Jesus lived as a Jew all His life. Sorry. my assumption is that folks who read the Bible also read the Old Testament.

That’s a little rude and a poor way to have a constructive argument. Just because a person disagrees with your characterization of another religion’s past religious and ritual practice does not mean they have “little knowledge” of the issues involved.

As for your knowledge of Jewish practice to day, what do you suppose Jews DO during Purim? How about the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur? They still DO things to atone for sin. We call it Penance as Catholics. Quite a bit of what we do as Catholics is foreshadowed by the things in the Old Covenant. To understand the New Covenant better it really is necessary to understand the Old.

But Jews don’t get assigned penance by a priest. Yes, they are supposed to confess, desist from sin and make restitution. But this is between the individual and God or the individual and another individual they have wronged.

I understand that you are a convert from Judaism, so I don’t want to sound like I’m trying to claim more knowledge of the Jewish religion than you have. However, I would point out that a Jew turned evangelical Christian could just as easily see evangelical confessional beliefs in both ancient and contemporary forms of Judaism.