Looking for input on this argument against Celibate Priesthood

[farronwolf]

Oh, I think the Boy Scouts will shortly see the full effects of some of the states lifting the statute of limitations on sexual abuse cases.

They recently had to mortgage Philmont Scout Ranch to the tune of about 450 million or so. The Boy Scouts isn’t long for this world I fear.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

“If the slots get filled by married priests you reduce the number of gay priest slots available. Someone will surely say: gay priest does not equal pedophile. But I disagree. They will say married men are most likely to fondle kids. Nonsense. PC brainwashing created by gays.”

There are no slots. This isn’t Harvard where people get rejection letters. The objection also ignores the stats for ideas of their own makibg so there is not mich hope that they will be able to accept any objection as valid.

 

[InThePew]

The John Jay College study into the causes of clerical abuse - the most comprehensive study of its kind - discounted any link between homosexuality and sexual abuse, noting that data shows the percentage of girls who were victims increased after girls were allowed to become altar servers. For what it’s worth, the same study also discounted any link between celibacy and sexual abuse.

 

[poche]

Bojan said that one of the differences between the Catholics (Latin Rite) and the Orthodox was that the Catholic priests are miserable because they are celibate and the Orthodox priests are miserable because they are married.

 

[jofa]

:joy:Hilarious!

 

[Organist78]

Correct.

And I believe the truth is–the legislatures aren’t even interested in bankrupting the Boy Scouts or other organizations who covered up abuse. It is just that–they cannot legally get the Catholic Church without also getting those other organizations and opening them up to lawsuits. Their real target is the Catholic Church.

 

[jofa]

Uhhh…I think we went off topic.

 

[jack63]

As for the article (which has been posted many times here on CAF…FYI), I see what it is saying as a partial truth and a partial lie. Sometimes the National Catholic Reporter distorts issues significantly to the point where they are redirecting the arguments into something that has no basis in reality.

The article starts with

In the 2015 movie “Spotlight,” the voice of Richard Sipe (played by Richard Jenkins) says over the speaker phone, “If you really want to understand the crisis, you need to start with the celibacy requirement.”

When Richard Sipe, an ordained Catholic Priest, left the Benedictines to get married, the Catholic church was a different place. For example, there have been over 25,000 priests leave the priesthood since the 1970’s. Most got married and most left in the 1970’s and 1980’s. There was an expectation following Vatican II that priests would be allowed to marry, which never happened. Also, at this time there were few Deacons. Where I go to mass, there are far more married Deacons than priests. The Deacons, married Catholic clergy, play a significant role and change the culture. Many priests are international. Is Sipe’s data still relevant?

Personally, I’d like to see more opportunities for older married men to be ordained Catholic priests around the world and also in the US. I genuinely think it is a good idea. This was what was discussed in the Amazon Synod, but that issue was left unresolved there. The thing is what really is the NCR’s agenda? There has been some liberal commentary (I think it was from the NCR) against allowing married men to be ordained as priests…especially the older conservative ones. They just don’t want any married priests, they what the “right” kind of progressive married priest… i.e. younger more malleable ones…

The point is that the devil is in the details with the celibacy requirement. As I’ve read here about it, the whole thing is deeply complex, and this article deeply distorts the issue.

 

[otjm]

Can you explain then that according to the DSM-IV the highest incidence of pedophilia (to include pubescent and post pubescent adolescents) was from married males?

Two questions (and I am not doing so to dispute the DSM): 1) what is the ratio of married abusers to married non-abusers (or to say it another way, out of all married couples, what is the percentage which will have child abuse while married)? 2) Presuming that the majority to vast majority of abusers are male in the DSM estimates, what percentage abuse female children, what percentage abuse male children, and what percentage abuse children of both sexes?

As note, I have done legal work in the area of Dependency and Termination cases, so I am not unaware of the abuse; I just never had an opportunity to delve into DSM.

 

[FiveLinden]

The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Abuse, after hearing massive amounts of evidence from and about Catholic and other institutions, made these recommendations. You can find their reasoning, and details of all the evidence, on the excellent Royal Commission site.

Recommendation 16.18

The Australian Catholic Bishops Conference should request the Holy See to consider introducing voluntary celibacy for diocesan clergy.

Recommendation 16.19

All Catholic religious ins tutes in Australia, in consulta on with their interna onal leadership and the Holy See as required, should implement measures to address the risks of harm to children and the poten al psychological and sexual dysfunc on associated with a celibate rule of religious life. This should include considera on of whether and how exis ng models of religious life could be modi ed to facilitate alterna ve forms of associa on, shorter terms of celibate commitment, and/or voluntary celibacy (where that is consistent with the form of associa on that has been chosen).

Recommendation 16.20

In order to promote healthy lives for those who choose to be celibate, the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference and all Catholic religious ins tutes in Australia should further develop, regularly evaluate and con nually improve, their processes for selec ng, screening and training of candidates for the clergy and religious life, and their processes of ongoing forma on, support and supervision of clergy and religious.

 

[commenter]

I am a former sex abuse investigator.
I did not see any pattern which supported a connection between celibacy and likelihood to abuse children.

The great majority of abusers were either currently married, formerly married, or had lived with women, likely in a sexual relationship, and sometimes had children.

Having sex with adults, and having sex with children, meets two different appetites/“needs”. One does not substitute for the other.

Two factors that are often correlated with being abuser: excessive alcohol abuse, and a history of having been molested as a young child. These two groups would incline to abuse two different groups of children.

I don’t have enough information to comment on alleged homosexuality factor.

 

[new-kirishitan]

I personally think that mandating celibacy across the board is a bit cruel, especially when the Eastern Catholic churches allow married men to become priests, as well as the Latin Church prior to the 6th century. And keep in mind that there’s the Personal Ordinariate for ex-Anglican pastors too. In addition, St. Peter – our first pope was married. Therefore, I am not against having married priests at all. In fact, I think married priests can offer more guidance than celibate priests in areas like relationship, marriage, and raising children. The deacon at my previous parish is an example. He is now back to the seminary to study for priesthood after his wife passed away, and he is far more knowledgable about family life than any priests I know. Should the Latin Church allow more married priests, we shall definitely see more priests who can offer these guidances through their own experiences.

 

[stoplooklisten]

God’s faithfulness (“Great is Thy faithfulness” as stated in the Bible’s Book of Lamentations) should be deeply reflected in the lives of His people and certainly in lives of bishops, priests and deacons.

Married people have an obligation to remain faithful in their vows. Celibate religious have an obligation to remain faithful in their vows. For centuries, the Church has been well served by the consecration of consecrated religious.

In the world of business, stewards have a fiduciary responsibility to be faithful over the business assets in their care.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. (Galatians 5:22-23)

It is required of stewards that they be found faithful.(1 Corinthians 4:2)

Even deacons wives have a responsibility to be “faithful in all things” (1 Timothy 3:11).

The prophet Daniel was a celibate eunuch and faithful. The entire Church of the Ephesians was greeted by the Apostle Paul as being holy and faithful ones (Ephesians 1:1). Be like a Daniel and the Ephesians.

The source of this “survey” of priests is spurious and may itself be unfaithful. When priests have failed to maintain celibacy, it is not a failure of celibacy but a failure of faithfulness which is required of all in any position of trust.

 

[jack63]

So I dug up the opinion article where the NCR deeply questions whether to change the celibacy requirement over concerns married priests won’t be progressive enough. The NCR has an agenda, and I would doubt if they really care about men who genuinely have a calling to both marriage and priesthood.

On changing mandatory celibacy: We must be careful what we wish for | National Catholic Reporter

From the article

Much as I would love to see the teaching on celibacy change, I’m also aware that just because the priesthood opens up to married men does not mean it opens up to progressive, justice-oriented, married men. As we push for the lifting of mandatory celibacy, we must be aware that a change that could appear to be “progress” could have a dark side…

 

[Hume]

Most of the Catholic Churches do allow priestly marriage and to say that it’s objectively wrong would be to put yourself against Peter himself as to who was more “Catholic”. Moreover, priestly celibacy in the early church is less than defensible.

It’s a higher calling. Maybe a soft requirement for the episcopate, but for rank-and-file priests?

Nah.

 

[commenter]

he is far more knowledgable about family life than any priests I know. Should the Latin Church allow more married priests, we shall definitely see more priests who can offer these guidances through their own experiences.

When I was in graduate school for Social Work we were told being married was no particular advantage for the therapist working with couples and families. Any advantage that did come from the social workers personal experience as a spouse was offset by the fact that others’ marriages are likely different - sometimes wildly different - from yours. The married therapist (or priest?) is constantly putting aside their own experience to objectively be open to and rely on information about this family.

There is a place for peer support, for couples or parents. That is something else.

 

[Diaconia]

There are so many mistaken [and conflated] issues that circle around these kinds of discussions:

• If priests could marry than child sexual abuse would diminish - NOT TRUE - chastity, not celibacy is needed by everyone according to their vocation: celibate, single or married.
• Marriage would allow priests an “outlet” for pent-up sexual desire so they wouldn’t abuse children - NOT TRUE - sexual desire for an adult and for a child can both be present in the same person. This is proven in the fact that most child abusers are married or living with a woman.
• Married priests could foster additional vocations - TRUE - there is an ongoing tradition of this in Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox clergy. There is not much evidence of it in America (due to the fact that Eastern Catholics only recently began ordaining married men in this country), but it is wide-spread in the Old Country. A great many priests and deacons are sons of priests and deacons. It is considered praiseworthy and a mark of honor for a family to have many generations of clergy.

In the final analysis, priestly celibacy is a blessing and grace for the Church. In the East, the tradition of celibacy continues in the monastic and religious orders, whom the hierarchy is typically taken from. Regular parish priests are often married, and their wives and children greatly enhance the life of the parish.

Celibacy is not correlated to abuse of young people. Ordaining married men as priests will not stop sexual abuse.

In my option - the priestly shortage will only be solved here in America by addressing its true root cause - materialism, greed, selfishness, and consumerism. God calls exactly the right number of priests in every age; ours is too busy serving the false god of materialism to hear Him.

You made them a kingdom and priests for our God,
Deacon Christopher