Looking for " other side " of Mormanism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Carl_Nicholas
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi BDawg,

After navigating through some ( alot there ) of Lehl’s links provided from post # 3, I have a few questions I would like to either confirm or not confirm directly from a Morman.

If you would be so kind to lend some perspective.

Is it a valid belief that you may become a God yourself of another planet ( if earned )??
That is classic Mormon doctrine. The truth is they believe we could become Gods of other universes, not just planets. Mormons believe we can gain all of the power and authority that God currently has over another universe.
Is it " true " that ALL others ( Non-Morman ) will be sent to hell??? unless baptized after death ( second chance to become a faithfull Morman) ???
Mormons don’t really believe in hell. They believe almost everyone will be saved in a kingdom of God with believing Mormons attaining the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom where they will have the opportunity for eternal offspring who will inhabit the universe they organize.
Is it the doctrine of LDS that the ONLY way to salvation is not available to any of us and thus available only to the Temple worthy that once they earn " recomend " they are then and only then shown the secret to salvation???
The opportunity to become temple worthy will be made available to everyone either in this life or the next. Everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject this opportunity. If rejected they will be saved in a place lower than the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. Nobody is denied the presence of God for lack of opportunity.
( I have several more questions but to try and maintain some sort of Back and forth, I will stop there for now )
I freely admit that these questions I have are in response to the info that was offered in post #3, and wanted to allow you ( Morman) an opportunity to respond.
God bless,
Carl
Seriously, the Mormon plan of salvation is quite impressive. A lot of people become hooked on Mormonism because it offers everyone the opportunity to be with God. Even those in the lower kingdoms are in the presence of at least one member of the Mormon godhood. They are in the presence of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in the Celestial Kingdom. They have the presence of the Son and the Holy Ghost in the Terrestial Kingdom. They have the presence of the Holy Ghost in the Telestial Kingdom. Even the promise of Godhood is enticing to many folks at first glance. I think as a Mormon begins to actually get a good idea of what Godhood entails for eternity that it becomes less appetizing for many of them.
 
Is it a valid belief that you may become a God yourself of another planet ( if earned )??
We believe men can become exalted to become “gods.” Whether that means being dominion over one planet, or a million, none, I’m not sure. But we will be ONE with God, just as Jesus is ONE with the Father. Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one with each other, and one with Him and the Father, JUST AS he and the Father are ONE. See John 17, if you don’t believe me.

Anyway, you may find this belief strange, but it is actually consistent with very ancient Jewish belief. Rabbi Akiba (d. A.D. 135) is credited with the following statement.

“The Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future call all of the pious by their names, and give them a cup of elixir of life in their hands so that they should live and endure forever… And the Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future reveal to all the pious in the World to Come the Ineffable Name with which new heavens and a new earth can be created, so that all of them should be able to create new worlds… The Holy One, blessed be He, will give every pious three hundred and forty worlds in inheritance in the World to Come.” (Midrash Alpha Beta diR. Akiba, BhM 3:32, quoted in Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1979, 251)

I could go on and on about how our doctrine of deification lines up with ancient documents, including the Bible, if you want.
Is it " true " that ALL others ( Non-Morman ) will be sent to hell??? unless baptized after death ( second chance to become a faithfull Morman) ???
No. We believe in a heaven with graded “degrees of glory.” All will have a place in one of the heavens, except those who willfully and knowingly reject God after having accepted His grace. Only those with a proper baptism, etc., can access the highest degree of glory, however.

This is actually somewhat similar to the Catholic belief. Catholicism teaches that the Church is the only vehicle of salvation. Some outside the visible Church may reach salvation, but salvation is only THROUGH the one catholic church. You guys have the concepts of “baptism of desire” and such, to account for the fact that people need to be baptized, whereas Mormons have an explicit rite of baptism for the dead.
Is it the doctrine of LDS that the ONLY way to salvation is not available to any of us and thus available only to the Temple worthy that once they earn " recomend " they are then and only then shown the secret to salvation???
People who attain the highest degree of glory in heaven must do so through our sacraments (just like Catholics believe a person must have some kind of baptism, whether by water, blood, or desire). On the other hand, we believe that everyone will eventually have the chance to accept or reject these ordinances. That’s why we not only perform “baptism for the dead” in our temples, but we also perform our other rituals on behalf of those who have passed on.

The bottom line on Mormon “exclusivism” is that:
  1. Yes, we believe we are the only Church with authority from God to perform the ordinances necessary for salvation.
  2. However, we recognize the good in other religions, and do not think everyone else is going to hell.
  3. Rather, God’s plan of salvation includes ways for EVERYONE, including Australian aborigines who had never heard of Christianity, to have a fair chance to be saved.
  4. So for us, the most important thing is that a person does the best he can to find God and follow Him, given the information and opportunities he is given.
The anti-Mormon sites you were perusing left out a lot of information, didn’t they? 😉 That’s because they were only interested in driving people away from Mormonism by making us sound weird, mean, snotty, and self-righteous. If they tried to describe what we believe fairly, well, that just wouldn’t accomplish their objectives very well.

So anyway, thanks for checking with us. I think you’ll find that anti-Mormon sites (including the ones written by Catholics) are just about as reliable as anti-Catholic sites tend to be. There are some exceptions–some people try not to treat other religions unfairly. But most of these people find that very hard to do. Jesus said “Love your enemy,” and I think that includes trying to treat them fairly.
 
Ugh…I haven’t read all of this thread, but out of sheer curiosity I clicked the “other side of catholicism” link, and I am disgusted.
I’m disgusted, too. These guys at CARM publish a lot of anti-Mormon material, too. Fundamentalists like these are often really into trashing other religions, so most of the anti-whatever literature comes from them. The really sad thing is that when Catholics want to go after some other religion (like the Mormons or JWs, or whatever) they often get most of their information from the Fundies! Why do they think these people will be any more accurate about us than they are about Catholics? Beats me.
 
when Catholics want to go after some other religion (like the Mormons or JWs, or whatever) they often get most of their information from the Fundies!
From my experience, I have found that what you call “Fundies”, and the Evangelical Protestant churches seem to view Mormons and Catholics with a “jaundiced eye.” The more balanced approach will be the Catholic one.
 
We believe men can become exalted to become “gods.” Whether that means being dominion over one planet, or a million, none, I’m not sure. But we will be ONE with God, just as Jesus is ONE with the Father. Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one with each other, and one with Him and the Father, JUST AS he and the Father are ONE. See John 17, if you don’t believe me.

Anyway, you may find this belief strange, but it is actually consistent with very ancient Jewish belief. Rabbi Akiba (d. A.D. 135) is credited with the following statement.

“The Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future call all of the pious by their names, and give them a cup of elixir of life in their hands so that they should live and endure forever… And the Holy One, blessed be He, will in the future reveal to all the pious in the World to Come the Ineffable Name with which new heavens and a new earth can be created, so that all of them should be able to create new worlds… The Holy One, blessed be He, will give every pious three hundred and forty worlds in inheritance in the World to Come.” (Midrash Alpha Beta diR. Akiba, BhM 3:32, quoted in Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts Detroit: Wayne State University Press, 1979, 251)

I could go on and on about how our doctrine of deification lines up with ancient documents, including the Bible, if you want.

No. We believe in a heaven with graded “degrees of glory.” All will have a place in one of the heavens, except those who willfully and knowingly reject God after having accepted His grace. Only those with a proper baptism, etc., can access the highest degree of glory, however.

This is actually somewhat similar to the Catholic belief. Catholicism teaches that the Church is the only vehicle of salvation. Some outside the visible Church may reach salvation, but salvation is only THROUGH the one catholic church. You guys have the concepts of “baptism of desire” and such, to account for the fact that people need to be baptized, whereas Mormons have an explicit rite of baptism for the dead.

People who attain the highest degree of glory in heaven must do so through our sacraments (just like Catholics believe a person must have some kind of baptism, whether by water, blood, or desire). On the other hand, we believe that everyone will eventually have the chance to accept or reject these ordinances. That’s why we not only perform “baptism for the dead” in our temples, but we also perform our other rituals on behalf of those who have passed on.

The bottom line on Mormon “exclusivism” is that:
  1. Yes, we believe we are the only Church with authority from God to perform the ordinances necessary for salvation.
  2. However, we recognize the good in other religions, and do not think everyone else is going to hell.
  3. Rather, God’s plan of salvation includes ways for EVERYONE, including Australian aborigines who had never heard of Christianity, to have a fair chance to be saved.
  4. So for us, the most important thing is that a person does the best he can to find God and follow Him, given the information and opportunities he is given.
The anti-Mormon sites you were perusing left out a lot of information, didn’t they? 😉 That’s because they were only interested in driving people away from Mormonism by making us sound weird, mean, snotty, and self-righteous. If they tried to describe what we believe fairly, well, that just wouldn’t accomplish their objectives very well.

So anyway, thanks for checking with us. I think you’ll find that anti-Mormon sites (including the ones written by Catholics) are just about as reliable as anti-Catholic sites tend to be. There are some exceptions–some people try not to treat other religions unfairly. But most of these people find that very hard to do. Jesus said “Love your enemy,” and I think that includes trying to treat them fairly.
Hello again BDawg,

First, THANK YOU for answering my questions,
I would like some time to digest all the things you have contributed, and collect my thoughts as I try and get a grasp of all this. I can honestly say " I am Overwhelmed with the Morman position. ( that is NOT a slam, rather it is my ignorance of what I thought the Morman faith believed before entering this site.)

I sincerly appreciate the amount of time you have spent replying to my questions.

God bless,
Carl
 
First, THANK YOU for answering my questions,
I would like some time to digest all the things you have contributed, and collect my thoughts as I try and get a grasp of all this. I can honestly say " I am Overwhelmed with the Morman position. ( that is NOT a slam, rather it is my ignorance of what I thought the Morman faith believed before entering this site.)

I sincerly appreciate the amount of time you have spent replying to my questions.
No problem, Carl.

I told you before that it takes a while (and a lot of work) to get your head around another religion, and usually you end up thinking it isn’t as stupid as you once thought. So if you come out of this understanding Mormonism better, and thinking we aren’t as dumb as you once thought, I’ll consider it time well spent. 😉
 
BartBurk; said:
Hi BartBurck,

Very interesting thoughts, I appreciate you sharing them with me.

THANKS, also for the responses to my other questions,
As I said to the VERY KIND, GENEROUS BDawg , I AM OVERWHELMED with all of this.

God bless,
Carl
 
The anti-Mormon sites you were perusing left out a lot of information, didn’t they? 😉
Gosh darn it and little kittens!!! I am getting really very tired of the Mormon assumption that just because the person has “some” information concerning the LDS, the person is getting it from “anti-Mormon” sites! Sites don’t proclaim themselves "Come here! I’m anti-Mormon! I promise that all the information here is incorrect! (And least I don’t think they do.)

Sometimes correct (and unbiased) information is hard to come by. (Looks like I should have gone to the “anti-Mormon” sites that were referenced. At least then I would have known about the Michael being Adam and Gabriel being Noah teaching!) And no–a person can’t simply go to the official LDS website and expect unbiased information. (A prudent person wouldn’t just accept the word of a particular car lot salesman. The prudent person would do research from as many sources as possible in order to learn whatever information he/she needs. That doesn’t make him “anti-” anything. It just makes him…well…prudent.)
 
Gosh darn it and little kittens!!! I am getting really very tired of the Mormon assumption that just because the person has “some” information concerning the LDS, the person is getting it from “anti-Mormon” sites! Sites don’t proclaim themselves "Come here! I’m anti-Mormon! I promise that all the information here is incorrect! (And least I don’t think they do.)

Sometimes correct (and unbiased) information is hard to come by. (Looks like I should have gone to the “anti-Mormon” sites that were referenced. At least then I would have known about the Michael being Adam and Gabriel being Noah teaching!) And no–a person can’t simply go to the official LDS website and expect unbiased information. (A prudent person wouldn’t just accept the word of a particular car lot salesman. The prudent person would do research from as many sources as possible in order to learn whatever information he/she needs. That doesn’t make him “anti-” anything. It just makes him…well…prudent.)
That is not what Bdawg is saying. He is the only Mormon that I can stand that comes to our site. So go a little easy on him.
 
That is not what Bdawg is saying. He is the only Mormon that I can stand that comes to our site. So go a little easy on him.
Point taken. I agree with you, Bdawg seems to lack the “persecution complex” and the “arrogance” that are evident with some of the LDS. Sorry that “anti-Mormon” accusation (I too often hear from other Mormons) drives me a little “squirrely”.

Bdawg ought to be careful or we’ll make him our “go between”.
 
Point taken. I agree with you, Bdawg seems to lack the “persecution complex” and the “arrogance” that are evident with some of the LDS. Sorry that “anti-Mormon” accusation (I too often hear from other Mormons) drives me a little “squirrely”.

Bdawg ought to be careful or we’ll make him our “go between”.
ambassador BDawg…haha i like it. blessed are the peacemakers!👍
 
(I too often hear from other Mormons) drives me a little “squirrely”.

Bdawg ought to be careful or we’ll make him our “go between”.
I could not agree more. We all know who you are talking about.
 
Hey Z,

You have again been so helpfull, I appreciate you taking the time to help me gain some perspective.👍

Peace,
Carl
If you really want to know what Mormons believe, why not try to learn it from the Mormons, instead of from anti-Mormons? Here is a book that has been written specifically to teach the basic beliefs of the Church to investigators or new members:

lds.org/gospellibrary/materials/gospel/Start%20Here_01.pdf

It is in PDF format, so you need AdobeReader on your computer to open it. Once you have opened it, you can save it on your computer, and read it at your leasure without having to go online. There is also a printed version of it, which you can obtain for free or from the Church or the missionaries of you ask them.

zerinus
 
If you really want to know what Mormons believe, why not try to learn it from the Mormons, instead of from anti-Mormons? Here is a book that has been written specifically to teach the basic beliefs of the Church to investigators or new members:

lds.org/gospellibrary/materials/gospel/Start%20Here_01.pdf

It is in PDF format, so you need AdobeReader on your computer to open it. Once you have opened it, you can save it on your computer, and read it at your leasure without having to go online. There is also a printed version of it, which you can obtain for free or from the Church or the missionaries of you ask them.

zerinus
Strange that you should cite the Gospel Principles manual, since you have consistently denied some of the doctrines it teaches, such as exalted Mormons becoming gods and producing spirit children to worship them.
 
If you really want to know what Mormons believe, why not try to learn it from the Mormons, instead of from anti-Mormons? Here is a book that has been written specifically to teach the basic beliefs of the Church to investigators or new members:

lds.org/gospellibrary/materials/gospel/Start%20Here_01.pdf

It is in PDF format, so you need AdobeReader on your computer to open it. Once you have opened it, you can save it on your computer, and read it at your leasure without having to go online. There is also a printed version of it, which you can obtain for free or from the Church or the missionaries of you ask them.

Hi Z,
To clarify ( If I may ), Are you saying that the original post I was asking " the other side " on ( Jeff Lindsay ) is NOT a good source to learn what Mormans really believe ," from a Morman"??

Is Jeff Lindsay an anti-Morman???

Is there anyone on this planet , as you see it, that is NOT anti-morman??? ( other than Z )

At any rate , thanks for the info on the book.

God bless,
Carl
 
Hi Z,
To clarify ( If I may ), Are you saying that the original post I was asking " the other side " on ( Jeff Lindsay ) is NOT a good source to learn what Mormans really believe ," from a Morman"??

Is Jeff Lindsay an anti-Morman???

Is there anyone on this planet , as you see it, that is NOT anti-morman??? ( other than Z )

At any rate , thanks for the info on the book.

God bless,
Carl
I thought by “the other side” of Mormonism you meant what anti-Mormons or those opposed to the LDS church teach or believe—like the links to articles from CA that Lehl had provided. Those are indeed anti-Mormon materials, and their purpose is to distort or misrepresent what Mormons believe. This is what you had said in your OP:
I am asking for (name removed by moderator)ut , thought, knowledge, as to the " OTHER SIDE of what is found on the Jeff Lindsay site.
So it is obvious that by the “other side” you mean what is opposite to Jeff Lindsay’s site. You were looking for anti-Mormon literature—which other duly provided for you. Why are you now trying to deny that? That smacks of dishonesty to me. :confused:

zerinus
 
I thought by “the other side” of Mormonism you meant what anti-Mormons or those opposed to the LDS church teach or believe—like the links to articles from CA that Lehl had provided. Those are indeed anti-Mormon materials, and their purpose is to distort or misrepresent what Mormons believe.

zerinus
I Started this thread sharing what Jeff Lindsay reports.( A MORMAN)
That should, at the very least, be a good faith effort to shine an even light.

The " other side " does NOT mean anti-Morman, it means exactly what it implies. ( the people who may not agree with Jeff Lindsay)

Your efforts in " OVER DEFENDING " your beliefs, and your never ending anti-Morman rants do very little in contributing to these back and forth threads.

Peace,
Carl
 
I Started this thread sharing what Jeff Lindsay reports.( A MORMAN)
That should, at the very least, be a good faith effort to shine an even light.

The " other side " does NOT mean anti-Morman, it means exactly what it implies. ( the people who may not agree with Jeff Lindsay)

Your efforts in " OVER DEFENDING " your beliefs, and your never ending anti-Morman rants do very little in contributing to these back and forth threads.

Peace,
Carl
I edited that post to add more material to it, in case you had had not noticed.

I am not “overdefending” my faith at all. I am calling a spade a spade. Let me turn that question around to you. Why are you so uncomfortable with learning about Mormonism from the official publications of the LDS Church; and every time I try to guide you in that direction, you become hyper-sensitive and start shouting at me?

zerinus
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top