Looking for " other side " of Mormanism

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I edited that post to add more material to it, in case you had had not noticed.

I am not “overdefending” my faith at all. I am calling a spade a spade. Let me turn that question around to you. Why are you so uncomfortable with learning about Mormonism from the official publications of the LDS Church; and every time I try to guide you in that direction, you become hyper-sensitive and start shouting at me?

zerinus
Hello Z,

First, If my words in CAPS are recieved as shouting, then I truly appologize. That is not what I am trying to express.

I am indeed trying to get this perspective from the Morman, That is why I read the J Lindsay link. It is also why I am trying to communicate with you as well as other Mormans that are available to me here.

I think that anyone who does not buy all or even part of what you defend, you call them anti-Morman.
I simply call it Non-Morman, it simply means they claim something else to be true.

I claim a completly different Truth than you do , does that make me anti-Morman or a Morman basher ( NO ) I just do not believe what you believe.

Peace,
Carl

When
 
Hello Z,

First, If my words in CAPS are recieved as shouting, then I truly appologize. That is not what I am trying to express.
Caps are OK, I was not referring to the caps.
I am indeed trying to get this perspective from the Morman, That is why I read the J Lindsay link. It is also why I am trying to communicate with you as well as other Mormans that are available to me here.
Thank you, I appreciate that. I think that your intentions are honest.
I think that anyone who does not buy all or even part of what you defend, you call them anti-Morman.
No, not at all. Those sites and articles that you were referring to (such as those from Catholic Answers) have an intended purpose to deliberately distort and misrepresent Mormonism. They don’t just “disagree” with it, or have a “different perspective” on religion. They see Mormonism as a threat to themselves or their religion, and try to defend themselves by deliberate distortion and misrepresentation, with outright lies or half truths. That is what I call “anti-Mormon”.
I simply call it Non-Morman, it simply means they claim something else to be true.
You are wrong! They don’t just have a different perspective. They are dishonest and deliberately misrepresent.
I claim a completly different Truth than you do , does that make me anti-Morman or a Morman basher ( NO ) I just do not believe what you believe.
You are very naive if you think that just because you are not motivated by anti-Mormon sentimnents, that nobody else is either. There are lots of people who manifest that spirit on this very board day after day.

zerinus
 
If you really want to know what Mormons believe, why not try to learn it from the Mormons, instead of from anti-Mormons? Here is a book that has been written specifically to teach the basic beliefs of the Church to investigators or new members:

lds.org/gospellibrary/materials/gospel/Start%20Here_01.pdf

It is in PDF format, so you need AdobeReader on your computer to open it. Once you have opened it, you can save it on your computer, and read it at your leasure without having to go online. There is also a printed version of it, which you can obtain for free or from the Church or the missionaries of you ask them.

zerinus
I agree. Especially chapter 47. This is the best explanation of Mormonism from an official Mormon source.
 
So it is obvious that by the “other side” you mean what is opposite to Jeff Lindsay’s site. You were looking for anti-Mormon literature—which other duly provided for you. Why are you now trying to deny that? That smacks of dishonesty to me. :confused:
Oh, come on, Z. If Carl goes to all the trouble of reading Jeff Lindsay’s site, he can’t be just out to get us. For someone who has already been exposed to anti-Mormon information, I think I actually like Jeff’s site better than the official LDS site. Whereas the official site is just meant to give basic information, Jeff’s site is set up to give the same basic info, while addressing all the major criticisms.
 
Hi guys,

I didn’t mean to offend anyone by saying all that material on Catholic Answers was “anti-Mormon,” but here’s why I said that. Several years ago I read Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism, and I thought it was brilliant. Keating DESTROYED them, and made them look silly. But then when I read the material on Mormonism on the Catholic Answers site, as well as the two books by Isaiah Bennett that they published, I thought it was pretty amateurish, anti-Mormon trash. How could the quality of their material vary so much? Here are my thoughts.
  1. I don’t think the CA guys are intentionally trying to mislead anyone about Mormonism.
  2. Rather, the real problem is that they don’t really understand Mormonism, and it sounds so weird and silly to them that they figure it must be ridiculously easy to debunk. So they don’t put much effort into it. Maybe they look up some Protestant anti-Mormon literature (and some of those guys ARE out to deceive people about both Mormonism AND Catholicism,) throw in a few things to give it a Catholic twist, and call it good.
  3. So I call it “anti-Mormon.” Maybe they mean well, but if you don’t put in the effort to really understand someone else’s religion, and how they might argue for various points, then you don’t really belong criticizing them in print.
 
The idea that a Hebrew family came here 600 years before Christ and started a Christian civilization in Ancient America is simply without any merit at all. The biggest problem for the Spalding theory is that no academic historian takes the Book of Mormon seriously enough to waste their time pursuing the Spalding theory.
Hi Bart,

I think you would be surprised if you were to check out the link I’m going to provide. Margaret Barker is a famous Methodist biblical scholar, who is a past president of the Society for Old Testament Study. In 2005 the Library of Congress hosted a seminar on Joseph Smith for the 200th anniversary of his birth. Barker gave a talk at that seminar, in which she showed that many details in the Book of Mormon match very closely her reconstruction of 600 BC Jerusalem. I met Margaret once, and while she had no desire to become a Mormon, she said that the things she had found out about the Book of Mormon were “spooky.” If you want to listen to her talk at the LoC, you can download the mp3 file here. If you want to read the transcript, you can find it here.
 
Hi Bart,

I think you would be surprised if you were to check out the link I’m going to provide. Margaret Barker is a famous Methodist biblical scholar, who is a past president of the Society for Old Testament Study. In 2005 the Library of Congress hosted a seminar on Joseph Smith for the 200th anniversary of his birth. Barker gave a talk at that seminar, in which she showed that many details in the Book of Mormon match very closely her reconstruction of 600 BC Jerusalem. I met Margaret once, and while she had no desire to become a Mormon, she said that the things she had found out about the Book of Mormon were “spooky.” If you want to listen to her talk at the LoC, you can download the mp3 file here. If you want to read the transcript, you can find it here.
Been there, done that. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that Joseph could have obtained a lot of this information from the Bible and the reference sources available to him locally. Of course if Sidney Rigdon were involved it would be even more likely that a good description of Jerusalem 600 B.C. could have been conjured up.
 
Hi guys,

I didn’t mean to offend anyone by saying all that material on Catholic Answers was “anti-Mormon,” but here’s why I said that. Several years ago I read Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism, and I thought it was brilliant. Keating DESTROYED them, and made them look silly. But then when I read the material on Mormonism on the Catholic Answers site, as well as the two books by Isaiah Bennett that they published, I thought it was pretty amateurish, anti-Mormon trash. How could the quality of their material vary so much? Here are my thoughts.
  1. I don’t think the CA guys are intentionally trying to mislead anyone about Mormonism.
  2. Rather, the real problem is that they don’t really understand Mormonism, and it sounds so weird and silly to them that they figure it must be ridiculously easy to debunk. So they don’t put much effort into it. Maybe they look up some Protestant anti-Mormon literature (and some of those guys ARE out to deceive people about both Mormonism AND Catholicism,) throw in a few things to give it a Catholic twist, and call it good.
  3. So I call it “anti-Mormon.” Maybe they mean well, but if you don’t put in the effort to really understand someone else’s religion, and how they might argue for various points, then you don’t really belong criticizing them in print.
Karl Keating some time ago sent two emails to all the Catholics on CAF which were very much “anti-Mormon”. The discussion of it led to a lengthy thread. It starts off with the text of the first email. I recommend you to read the whole thread. The start of the thread here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217310

and the full text of the second email here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3305711#post3305711

Karl Keating is openly opposed to Mormonism, and makes no attempt to hide it. I don’t know why you are now trying to cover it up for him, when he does not try to cover it up for himself! LOL 🙂

zerinus
 
No, not at all. Those sites and articles that you were referring to (such as those from Catholic Answers) have an intended purpose to deliberately distort and misrepresent Mormonism. They don’t just “disagree” with it, or have a “different perspective” on religion. They see Mormonism as a threat to themselves or their religion, and try to defend themselves by deliberate distortion and misrepresentation, with outright lies or half truths. That is what I call “anti-Mormon”.

You are wrong! They don’t just have a different perspective. They are dishonest and deliberately misrepresent.

You are very naive if you think that just because you are not motivated by anti-Mormon sentimnents, that nobody else is either. There are lots of people who manifest that spirit on this very board day after day.

zerinus
Hi Z,

First part of your response (CA has intended purpose to distort and misrepresent Mormanism ) The 3 questions I asked is post #19 ( sorry I still can’t figure out how you all cut and paste qoutes from here and there, LOL ). were questions I had from reading those ( CA) links and the 2 people who did reply to them seemed to, at the very least ,lend some credibility to it. (???) Am I confused that the CA site’s info seemed to reflect the true beliefs of Mormans.

Second part ( I am naive to think that just because “I” am not motivated by anti-Morman sentimnents, that nobody else is either) After reading your comment and digesting it< I would have to totally AGREE with you. Point well made.

Peace,
Carl
 
But then when I read the material on Mormonism on the Catholic Answers site, as well as the two books by Isaiah Bennett that they published, I thought it was pretty amateurish, anti-Mormon trash.
Isaiah Bennett. The name has been mentioned before, but I haven’t read him. Still, isn’t he the guy who converted to Mormonism and then converted back to Catholicism? I believe that he was almost a celebrity while he was Mormon with a following in Mormon circles, but now he’s called amaterish? Why is that? Is his information really “anti-Mormon” or just non-Mormon?
 
Hi Z,

First part of your response (CA has intended purpose to distort and misrepresent Mormanism ) The 3 questions I asked is post #19 ( sorry I still can’t figure out how you all cut and paste qoutes from here and there, LOL ). were questions I had from reading those ( CA) links and the 2 people who did reply to them seemed to, at the very least ,lend some credibility to it. (???) Am I confused that the CA site’s info seemed to reflect the true beliefs of Mormans.
Well, it doesn’t. I also gave you my answer to those questions.
Second part ( I am naive to think that just because “I” am not motivated by anti-Morman sentimnents, that nobody else is either) After reading your comment and digesting it< I would have to totally AGREE with you. Point well made.
I gave you a link to an online book in PDF form that is very readable and will give you a good idea of what Mormonism believes or teaches. Ultimately, there is no substitute to reading the Book of Mormon itself for acquainting yourself with our beliefs.

zerinus
 
Karl Keating some time ago sent two emails to all the Catholics on CAF which were very much “anti-Mormon”. The discussion of it led to a lengthy thread. It starts off with the text of the first email. I recommend you to read the whole thread. The start of the thread here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217310

and the full text of the second email here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3305711#post3305711

Karl Keating is openly opposed to Mormonism, and makes no attempt to hide it. I don’t know why you are now trying to cover it up for him, when he does not try to cover it up for himself! LOL 🙂

zerinus
and mormonism is openly opposed to all other religions. i don’t have a problem with that but we need to get it out in the open. the catholic church claims to be the one true church that Christ himself set up and that God leads and protects. I believe that. part of that faith requires me to see other religions as at best incomplete and in some cases diabolical. (i would hope that we can all agree that openly satanic cults are evil) mormons make the same claim and thus (as restorationists) have an even more visible need to believe this way as they can’t see very many others as heretics or mormons “not in communion with SLC”. all are either apostate (judeo-christian) or blatantly false.

pretending that all faiths are of equal value or that we can be both catholic and mormon or that we don’t think the other needs to convert is not going to accomplish anything. true we need to be courteous in our discussion and we can respectfully disagree but let’s be straight with each other.

now to the accusation that CA distorted or materially misrepresented mormonism…how? everything claimed is verifiable. the debate SHOULD be over what those claims mean

not everyone who doesn’t believe in mormonism is an anti-mormon. you don’t have to lie about it or even misunderstand it to make an informed choice that it’s wrong. rather than just throw out the persecution card let’s just discuss why you think the case against mormonism is wrong. usually it boils down to the testimony. so either you believe the holy spirit gave you a revelation that it’s true and you just have to endure to the end to see how it could actually be true OR you’re not sure despite your best efforts to believe in it/against it OR you don’t care OR you rejected it
 
I’m going to stay out of the who is or who is not “anti”, but CA does not do a good job of portraying LDS beliefs. I’ve seen worse, but they should do better at providing accurate information about what others think not just attacking everyone who is different.
 
Isaiah Bennett. The name has been mentioned before, but I haven’t read him. Still, isn’t he the guy who converted to Mormonism and then converted back to Catholicism? I believe that he was almost a celebrity while he was Mormon with a following in Mormon circles, but now he’s called amaterish? Why is that? Is his information really “anti-Mormon” or just non-Mormon?
Wazzup, A.

You make a good point.

Bennett was a Catholic priest who was doing research to write an anti-Mormon book, when he had some kind of spiritual experience that convinced him to convert to Mormonism. So he and his secretary converted, got married, and moved to Utah. Of course, this makes a great story, so pretty soon he was giving “fireside” talks all over the place. He even made a tape of his talk that was distributed (I think) by Deseret Book.

Anyway, Bennett says he was disillusioned by 1) the fact that the Mormon stance on abortion isn’t as strict as the Catholic one, and 2) he didn’t get the Temple ceremony. So he went back to Catholicism, I think after having some discussions with Pat Madrid and others.

A few years later, he published two anti-Mormon books through Catholic Answers. And they are mostly junk, although there have been much worse. Here is a review of the books from a Mormon perspective.

So why did so many Mormons find Bennett’s story so appealing? Because it makes us feel good to think that a Catholic priest studying anti-Mormon literature would convert to Mormonism. If someone like that converts, then it must be right! Now I don’t have to study it out myself, since someone like good old Isaiah has already obviously examined both sides!

And why do Catholics wanting to debunk Mormonism eat up Bennett’s books? Well, pretty much the same reasons, I think.

This brings me to:

BDAWG’S FIRST AXIOM FOR UNDERSTANDING PEOPLE
“Most people are intellectually lazy.”
–BDawg, 2008
 
now to the accusation that CA distorted or materially misrepresented mormonism…how? everything claimed is verifiable. the debate SHOULD be over what those claims mean.
Hi Maj,

Even if CA didn’t say anything that was *false *about Mormon beliefs, did they leave things out that would have been critical for their readers to obtain a fair and accurate appraisal of the Mormon beliefs in question? I think so.

For me, the question is whether the religion being criticized is being treated fairly, not just whether they are being blatantly lied about. And by fairly, I don’t mean that the writer ends up saying “I’m ok, you’re ok.” I’ve seen plenty of things written by Mormons that I characterize as “anti-Catholic junk.” Why? Because they didn’t treat you fairly, no matter how pure the authors’ intentions.
 
Hi Maj,

Even if CA didn’t say anything that was *false *about Mormon beliefs, did they leave things out that would have been critical for their readers to obtain a fair and accurate appraisal of the Mormon beliefs in question? I think so.

For me, the question is whether the religion being criticized is being treated fairly, not just whether they are being blatantly lied about. And by fairly, I don’t mean that the writer ends up saying “I’m ok, you’re ok.” I’ve seen plenty of things written by Mormons that I characterize as “anti-Catholic junk.” Why? Because they didn’t treat you fairly, no matter how pure the authors’ intentions.
fair enough. so rather than pore over everything mormon that CA didn’t publish, condense if you will the “jist” of what you think was left out that would be relevant to the specific claims made by CA
 
Anyway, Bennett says he was disillusioned by 1) the fact that the Mormon stance on abortion isn’t as strict as the Catholic one, and 2) he didn’t get the Temple ceremony. So he went back to Catholicism, I think after having some discussions with Pat Madrid and others.
I don’t think this is exactly true according to the interviews I’ve heard by Isaiah Bennett. I believe he said he was disillusioned by 1) Mormonism is not as pro-family as advertised or the Catholic Church 2) The highly prized Temple Ceremony left him feeling empty compared to a Catholic Mass. 3) Mormonism is not consistently anti-abortion.
 
fair enough. so rather than pore over everything mormon that CA didn’t publish, condense if you will the “jist” of what you think was left out that would be relevant to the specific claims made by CA
Hi Maj,

I don’t have time to go through everything they’ve published, but I’ll give you an example. They have a tract called, “The Gods of the Mormon Church,” here.

They talk all about our belief in the plurality of Gods, but neglect to mention our belief that God is ONE.

They quote passages from LDS writings that seem to contradict one another, but neglect to mention how LDS people try to harmonize them.

They say, “In time, Mormons believe, the Heavenly Father came to earth and had physical, sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary.” We have recently discussed this in this forum, and I think you agree with me that this is a gross oversimplification.

They say, “Moreover, Mormons teach that Christ is a secondary, inferior god. He does not exist from all eternity.” But this is false. Everyone existed from eternity in our view.

In the last section, they say,
“Be forewarned that your first discussion about the nature of God won’t produce any visible change in your Mormon acquaintance. He’s unlikely to admit the cogency and simplicity of your argument. He’s probably working in good faith, and he’s sincere in his beliefs. But psychologically you’re at a disadvantage, since he wants to maintain his faith as he’s known it. Be patient as you help him see these theological ‘black holes.’” I’m more inclined to think that there would be no visible change in your Mormon acquaintance because it would be clear to him that, if you followed the CA line of reasoning, you do not have a clear understanding of our belief system.

This is a very common form of religious argument. That is, you go through and show all the “contradictions” of the other faith, but never ask how, or even whether, these other people ever try to resolve them. Mormons do it all the time, so I’m not trying to single CA out.
 
Hi Maj,

I don’t have time to go through everything they’ve published, but I’ll give you an example. They have a tract called, “The Gods of the Mormon Church,” here.

They talk all about our belief in the plurality of Gods, but neglect to mention our belief that God is ONE.
which is henotheistic at best. LDS believe that the “trinity” is one in PURPOSE only. they do not believe them to be the only Gods either.
They quote passages from LDS writings that seem to contradict one another, but neglect to mention how LDS people try to harmonize them.
i think the lack of a catechism equivalent and rampant speculation on the part of members as evidenced in any Gospel doctrine class make sthis problematic to do. I think the general consensus is there and is not surprisingly very close to Mconkie’s positions. That causes me to believe that cognitive dissonance is more common than harmonizing
They say, “In time, Mormons believe, the Heavenly Father came to earth and had physical, sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary.” We have recently discussed this in this forum, and I think you agree with me that this is a gross oversimplification.
yes i believe it is BUT, i think it still essentially what was taught.
They say, “Moreover, Mormons teach that Christ is a secondary, inferior god. He does not exist from all eternity.” But this is false. Everyone existed from eternity in our view.
now who’s leaving things out to create a distorted view? he was not eternally God. foreordination even comes after “birth” as a spirit child. so in LDS doctrine there was a time when Elohim and Jehovah existed as “intelligences” (not really defined what that means) who were not divine and not even fore ordained to become divine. Elohim had to endure a mortal existence and be obedient to his own “heavenly father” before Jehovah was ever his “son”. and we must extend this out to his God having done the same in an “eternal REgression” as well eternal PROgression. so there are an infinite number of beings more powerful and glorious than elohim and though he progresses endlessly so do they so that the “chain” is never broken.
In the last section, they say,
“Be forewarned that your first discussion about the nature of God won’t produce any visible change in your Mormon acquaintance. He’s unlikely to admit the cogency and simplicity of your argument. He’s probably working in good faith, and he’s sincere in his beliefs. But psychologically you’re at a disadvantage, since he wants to maintain his faith as he’s known it. Be patient as you help him see these theological ‘black holes.’” I’m more inclined to think that there would be no visible change in your Mormon acquaintance because it would be clear to him that, if you followed the CA line of reasoning, you do not have a clear understanding of our belief system.

This is a very common form of religious argument. That is, you go through and show all the “contradictions” of the other faith, but never ask how, or even whether, these other people ever try to resolve them. Mormons do it all the time, so I’m not trying to single CA out.
well it’s a start. it works for LDS missionaries for the same reasons that CA recommends it. once the person divulges THEIR methodology for believing despite perceived contradictions then you can look for the best approach. some will accept history or logic better others are more likely to respond to emotional appeals. some prefer the “mystical”. i myself do not like to get all “salesy” and try to optimize the approach based on sales formulas.it’s not a contest and I see no point in “winning” a debate contest or manipulating the “weak minded” into my viewpoint. This is the fate of souls for all eternity. I try to obey god and be my brothers keeper in spreading his word as best i can. i feel the need to be very blunt about it. polite failures to evangelize will be of little comfort in Hell. Those who accept the true faith will certainly not complain about how they were converted once in heaven. I do not wish to stand before God at the time of judgment and say I politely respected all the heretics views and lovingly left them in their errors.
 
yes i believe it is BUT, i think it still essentially what was taught.
now who’s leaving things out to create a distorted view? he was not eternally God. foreordination even comes after “birth” as a spirit child. so in LDS doctrine there was a time when Elohim and Jehovah existed as “intelligences” (not really defined what that means) who were not divine and not even fore ordained to become divine. Elohim had to endure a mortal existence and be obedient to his own “heavenly father” before Jehovah was ever his “son”. and we must extend this out to his God having done the same in an “eternal REgression” as well eternal PROgression. so there are an infinite number of beings more powerful and glorious than elohim and though he progresses endlessly so do they so that the “chain” is never broken.
This does seem to me to be the Achilles heel of Mormonism. They claim God the Father was once a man, but really don’t explain how the person who was his Father became God. They even have a hymn questioning “when Gods began to be” when Joseph Smith seems to indicate there never was a God who didn’t have a Father. That sounds pretty impossible to me.
 
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