Looking for " other side " of Mormanism

[majick275]

It hasn’t been proven wrong at all and the book of mormon is still out there claiming its truth. Of course, people can wish it away, but it is more difficult to prove it wrong. As I have said, the only way that the lds church will be proven wrong is if a manuscript is discovered in original handwriting complete with rough drafts. But that is unlikely now.

it’s contents have been proven wrong. one doesn’t need to prove who wrote it or how (although that never seems to favor the mormon position either). we can see that the claims in the book are wrong. it’s not difficult at all. FAIR was ready to show how the hoffman forgeries were proof of LDS claims. they are hardly credible.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

If it is true that the Nephites never ventured outside a small area in Mesoamerica, then how do you explain Moroni burying the plates in New York?

Hi again,

I realize I have some homework from the info/sites that have been offered in the last several posts ( Thank you ( all ) for them ), BUT,
Does any Morman have any insight or response to the above post from PaulDupre???

Thanks,
Peace,
Carl

 

[BartBurk]

I think we are probably barking up the wrong tree if we think most Mormons accept the idea the Book of Mormon took place in Central America. Many, many, many Mormons completely reject that idea altogether. One of the most vocal of them is Rod Meldrum who has made a cottage industry by claiming the Book of Mormon events took place around the Great Lakes. He even offers Book of Mormon tours to that area (accompanied by at least one retired General Authority). Here is Meldrum’s web site:

bookofmormonevidence.org/index.php

The problem Mormons have is there is really no evidence for the Book of Mormon in Central America or the Great Lakes. If there were they wouldn’t be arguing about it. They are completely unable to resolve this issue because there is no credible Book of Mormon geography. Imagine how it would be if we had no evidence for Jerusalem or Bethlehem! Would anyone take the story of Jesus’ birth and life seriously if we didn’t know where the events took place? That’s the problem Mormons have – they can’t locate a single New World place for Book of Mormon events.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

I think we are probably barking up the wrong tree if we think most Mormons accept the idea the Book of Mormon took place in Central America. Many, many, many Mormons completely reject that idea altogether. One of the most vocal of them is Rod Meldrum who has made a cottage industry by claiming the Book of Mormon events took place around the Great Lakes. He even offers Book of Mormon tours to that area (accompanied by at least one retired General Authority). Here is Meldrum’s web site:

bookofmormonevidence.org/index.php

The problem Mormons have is there is really no evidence for the Book of Mormon in Central America or the Great Lakes. If there were they wouldn’t be arguing about it. They are completely unable to resolve this issue because there is no credible Book of Mormon geography. Imagine how it would be if we had no evidence for Jerusalem or Bethlehem! Would anyone take the story of Jesus’ birth and life seriously if we didn’t know where the events took place? That’s the problem Mormons have – they can’t locate a single New World place for Book of Mormon events.

Hi BartBurk,

First, Thanks for all the contributions.

I recall from reading ( J Lindsay site in OP ) about the cataclysmic battle that exterminated the Nephites is mesoamerica. This read implied body armor, shields,etc,etc.
Is there no " independent archeolgy findings " to support or deny this??? ( after all, it was not that long ago by archeolgy time)

Thanks,
God bless,
Carl

 

[BartBurk]

Hi BartBurk,

First, Thanks for all the contributions.

I recall from reading ( J Lindsay site in OP ) about the cataclysmic battle that exterminated the Nephites is mesoamerica. This read implied body armor, shields,etc,etc.
Is there no " independent archeolgy findings " to support or deny this??? ( after all, it was not that long ago by archeolgy time)

Thanks,
God bless,
Carl

No. You would expect evidence like that around the Hill Cumorah, but it’s missing completely.

 

[BDawg]

so was joseph smith and spencer kimball. LGT has been limited to apologists. no GA’s have openly embraced it in my knowledge.

Not so. For instance, see this talk by Dallin Oaks. Here’s a relevant quote.

For me, this obvious insight goes back over forty years to the first class I took in the Book of Mormon at BYU. The class was titled, somewhat boldly, the “Archaeology of the Book of Mormon.” In retrospect, I think it should have been labelled something like “An Anthropologist Looks at a Few Subjects of Interest to Readers of the Book of Mormon.” Here I was introduced to the idea that the Book of Mormon is not a history of all of the people who have lived on the continents of North and South America in all ages of the earth. Up to that time, I had assumed that it was. If that were the claim of the Book of Mormon, any piece of historical, archaeological, or linguistic evidence to the contrary would weigh in against the Book of Mormon, and those who rely exclusively on scholarship would have a promising position to argue.

In contrast, if the Book of Mormon only purports to be an account of a few peoples who inhabited a portion of the Americas during a few millennia in the past, the burden of argument changes drastically. It is no longer a question of all versus none; it is a question of some versus none. In other words, in the circumstance I describe, the opponents of historicity must prove that the Book of Mormon has no historical validity for any peoples who lived in the Americas in a particular time frame, a notoriously difficult exercise. You do not prevail on that proposition by proving that a particular eskimo culture represents migrations from Asia. The opponents of the historicity of the Book of Mormon must prove that the people whose religious life it records did not live anywhere in the Americas.

 

[BartBurk]

Not so. For instance, see this talk by Dallin Oaks. Here’s a relevant quote.

For me, this obvious insight goes back over forty years to the first class I took in the Book of Mormon at BYU. The class was titled, somewhat boldly, the “Archaeology of the Book of Mormon.” In retrospect, I think it should have been labelled something like “An Anthropologist Looks at a Few Subjects of Interest to Readers of the Book of Mormon.” Here I was introduced to the idea that the Book of Mormon is not a history of all of the people who have lived on the continents of North and South America in all ages of the earth. Up to that time, I had assumed that it was. If that were the claim of the Book of Mormon, any piece of historical, archaeological, or linguistic evidence to the contrary would weigh in against the Book of Mormon, and those who rely exclusively on scholarship would have a promising position to argue.

In contrast, if the Book of Mormon only purports to be an account of a few peoples who inhabited a portion of the Americas during a few millennia in the past, the burden of argument changes drastically. It is no longer a question of all versus none; it is a question of some versus none. In other words, in the circumstance I describe, the opponents of historicity must prove that the Book of Mormon has no historical validity for any peoples who lived in the Americas in a particular time frame, a notoriously difficult exercise. You do not prevail on that proposition by proving that a particular eskimo culture represents migrations from Asia. The opponents of the historicity of the Book of Mormon must prove that the people whose religious life it records did not live anywhere in the Americas.

Book of Mormon apologists try to find cover through the LGT theory. They are smart enough to know the hemispheric model can’t be sustained any longer. They also realize the evidence for Book of Mormon characters around the Great Lakes is completely lacking. But there are big cement buildings in Central America and a fairly advanced civilization. So they pin their hopes on finding something in this small area that might somehow back them up. Often they create pseudo-evidence to pull the wool over the eyes of the poor church members who are sustaining their academic efforts at BYU. And the poor church members want answers and are willing to accept any scrap of something which might justify their 10 percent and all of the hours they spend building the Mormon Kingdom. The averages member loves the Mormon Church and benefits from the Mormon community so the apologists’ work helps the poor member overcome any cognitive dissonance they might be suffering because of what the real scientists tell them.

And Oaks is absolutely willing to play that game because he has spent a considerable amount of his life in leadership positions in the Mormon Church. He’s certainly smart enough to see the problems in Mormonism, but he doesn’t want to be the one who lets the poor members know the emperor doesn’t have any clothes. I think for many of these General Authorities the mantra is, “Not on my watch – let the next generation deal with the fallout.” And there will be a reckoning at some point because the information available on the internet is so devastating to Mormonism that it will be hard to hold back the tide. You don’t have to go into a Christian bookstore to find this stuff these days – it’s right here on the internet for all to see. And there are new communities on-line popping up of former Mormons who support the poor Mormons whose eyes are being opened.

I understand the LDS Church headquarters has had to add a lot of people to the department which handles resignations. Until people like Oaks are willing to face the truth and come clean, they are probably going to have to continue to increase the employees in the member resignation department. I suspect they keep it up because admitting the truth about the value of the Book of Mormon might be worse than allowing the slow bleeding.

 

[PaulDupre]

The opponents of the historicity of the Book of Mormon must prove that the people whose religious life it records did not live anywhere in the Americas.

I think the BoM itself proves that. Look at the size of the Lehite populations described in the narrative. Just considering the numbers of Nephite casualties at the Hill Cumorah battle (about 230,000) means that there would have been at least as many Lamanites and probably more. So we have at least a half-million Lehite descendants, not including women, children, and men who were not soldiers. And that was even after their populations had been drastically reduced by several generations of wars.

So now we’re looking at at the very least a million literate, highly technological steel-making, highway-constructing, chariot-riding, linen-and-silk-spinning, wheat-and-barley-farming, cattle-breeding, coin-minting, hebrew-speaking, Egyptian-writing, horse-training, elephant-riding Jews in the Americas.

Do you think it likely that none of the surrounding native populations would have incorporated any of this wonderful and useful culture and technology into their own cultures? And yet there is not one trace of any of these cultural artifacts present in any native American culture prior to the arrival of the Spanish in 1492. This flies in the face of all reason and the consistent lessons of history.

And there is no trace - not one- of the artifacts that would necessarily have been left behind by such a culture. No coins, no steel mills, no slag heaps, no rusted steel swords and armor, no chariot wheels, no oxen yoke - nothing. There is also no pollen from any of the old-world plants described in the BoM extant in American soil cores from that time period. That is impossible.

These people obviously never existed.

 

[Jerusha]

They are completely unable to resolve this issue because there is no credible Book of Mormon geography. That’s the problem Mormons have – they can’t locate a single New World place for Book of Mormon events.

Unless they accept the Great Lakes geography and look at the Vikings, the settlements on Greenland, Native and Scandinavian and British legends, and L’Anse aux Meadows, and a time-frame of 908 AD to 1472 for the BOM. But that is unacceptable because

1. It turns 80 to 90% of the BOM into pure BS
2. Adolph Hitler thought that was what it was about, and he was a bad person.
3. That turns knowledgable racist Mormons into proto-Nazis.

Read the BOM and Mein Kampf with that in mind, and you will see what I mean.

Talking about lies turning people into pretzels!!! That one takes the prize.

And that is what my book is about.

 

[BartBurk]

I think the BoM itself proves that. Look at the size of the Lehite populations described in the narrative. Just considering the numbers of Nephite casualties at the Hill Cumorah battle (about 230,000) means that there would have been at least as many Lamanites and probably more. So we have at least a half-million Lehite descendants, not including women, children, and men who were not soldiers. And that was even after their populations had been drastically reduced by several generations of wars.

So now we’re looking at at the very least a million literate, highly technological steel-making, highway-constructing, chariot-riding, linen-and-silk-spinning, wheat-and-barley-farming, cattle-breeding, coin-minting, hebrew-speaking, Egyptian-writing, horse-training, elephant-riding Jews in the Americas.

Do you think it likely that none of the surrounding native populations would have incorporated any of this wonderful and useful culture and technology into their own cultures? And yet there is not one trace of any of these cultural artifacts present in any native American culture prior to the arrival of the Spanish in 1492. This flies in the face of all reason and the consistent lessons of history.

And there is no trace - not one- of the artifacts that would necessarily have been left behind by such a culture. No coins, no steel mills, no slag heaps, no rusted steel swords and armor, no chariot wheels, no oxen yoke - nothing. There is also no pollen from any of the old-world plants described in the BoM extant in American soil cores from that time period. That is impossible.

These people obviously never existed.

The Mormon apologists will always rely on the out that you can’t prove a negative. Their cushy jobs at BYU depend on that. Their paycheck ends if they ever admit the Book of Mormon is a fraud. And what else are they really capable of doing?

 

[BDawg]

Hi again,

I realize I have some homework from the info/sites that have been offered in the last several posts ( Thank you ( all ) for them ), BUT,
Does any Morman have any insight or response to the above post from PaulDupre???

Thanks,
Peace,
Carl

The Book of Mormon said he wandered for about 30 years, hiding from the Lamanites. You can walk a long way in 30 years, especially when you are motivated by people trying to kill you.

 

[BartBurk]

Unless they accept the Great Lakes geography and look at the Vikings, the settlements on Greenland, Native and Scandinavian and British legends, and L’Anse aux Meadows, and a time-frame of 908 AD to 1472 for the BOM. But that is unacceptable because

1. It turns 80 to 90% of the BOM into pure BS
2. Adolph Hitler thought that was what it was about, and he was a bad person.
3. That turns knowledgable racist Mormons into proto-Nazis.

Read the BOM and Mein Kampf with that in mind, and you will see what I mean.

Talking about lies turning people into pretzels!!! That one takes the prize.

And that is what my book is about.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t accept the Book of Mormon and Mein Kampf are equivalent. For one thing the Book of Mormon was supposedly written as a way to convert Native Americans to Christianity and save them. Mein Kampf was written in support of exterminating the Jews and others who Hitler despised. So the intent of the two books is totally different.

What Hitler might have thought about the Book of Mormon (are you sure he even heard of it?) has nothing to do with the actual intent of the Book of Mormon itself. The intention of the Book of Mormon to convert the “Lamanites” to Christianity is apparent. For those who see any missionary work to convert non-Christians as somehow warped, that won’t seem to be a noble end, but I think most Christians would at least admit the intention to convert Native Americans to Christianity is valid.

 

[BartBurk]

The Book of Mormon said he wandered for about 30 years, hiding from the Lamanites. You can walk a long way in 30 years, especially when you are motivated by people trying to kill you.

So he wandered for 30 years with this huge collection of plates which were to be deposited in this far off hill and he was never caught? Please …

 

[Jerusha]

The Book of Mormon said he wandered for about 30 years, hiding from the Lamanites. You can walk a long way in 30 years, especially when you are motivated by people trying to kill you.

Interesting comment. Is that a threat? Or is it a comment about the last of the “Nephites”, left behind after Hagoth and his people left? You know, many surrendered and were grateful to be adopted into the tribes. Google on “Windigo”. Sad that many would rather die than have their descendants be Native.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

I think the BoM itself proves that. Look at the size of the Lehite populations described in the narrative. Just considering the numbers of Nephite casualties at the Hill Cumorah battle (about 230,000) means that there would have been at least as many Lamanites and probably more. So we have at least a half-million Lehite descendants, not including women, children, and men who were not soldiers. And that was even after their populations had been drastically reduced by several generations of wars.

So now we’re looking at at the very least a million literate, highly technological steel-making, highway-constructing, chariot-riding, linen-and-silk-spinning, wheat-and-barley-farming, cattle-breeding, coin-minting, hebrew-speaking, Egyptian-writing, horse-training, elephant-riding Jews in the Americas.

Do you think it likely that none of the surrounding native populations would have incorporated any of this wonderful and useful culture and technology into their own cultures? And yet there is not one trace of any of these cultural artifacts present in any native American culture prior to the arrival of the Spanish in 1492. This flies in the face of all reason and the consistent lessons of history.

And there is no trace - not one- of the artifacts that would necessarily have been left behind by such a culture. No coins, no steel mills, no slag heaps, no rusted steel swords and armor, no chariot wheels, no oxen yoke - nothing. There is also no pollen from any of the old-world plants described in the BoM extant in American soil cores from that time period. That is impossible.

These people obviously never existed.

Hi Paul,
Your post ( concerning numbers of people involved in the great battle that resulted in the extinction of the Nephites ) seems to jive with the account given by ( Morman ) J Lindsay.

Given that, I await the response from the " other side " in respect to ( If any ) the archeological findings that ( to me ) would be sure to exist with the amounts of armor, shields, speers , etc etc that must have been present for this great battle to have taken place.

God bless,
Carl

 

[Jerusha]

I’m sorry, but I just don’t accept the Book of Mormon and Mein Kampf are equivalent.
They aren’t. Hitler just went 20 steps further.
For one thing the Book of Mormon was supposedly written as a way to convert Native Americans to Christianity and save them.
It is more than that.
Mein Kampf was written in support of exterminating the Jews and others who Hitler despised.
You think no Mormon has ever had overt genocide run through his mind?
So the intent of the two books is totally different.
Definitely.

(are you sure he even heard of it?)
Yes, I am sure

…In the end, however, the conquerors transgress against the principle of blood purity, to which they had first adhered; they begin to mix with the subjugated inhabitants and thus end their own existence; for the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion.
After a thousand years and more, the last visible trace of the former master people is often seen in the lighter skin color which its blood left behind in the subjugated race, and in a petrified culture which it had originally created. For, once the actual and spiritual conqueror lost himself in the blood of the subjugated people, the fire for the torch of human progress was lost! Just as, through the blood of the former masters, the color preserved a feeble gleam in their memory, likewise the night of cultural life is gently illumined by the remaining creations of the light-bringers. (p. 292, Hitler, 1925)

 

[PaulDupre]

The Book of Mormon said he wandered for about 30 years, hiding from the Lamanites. You can walk a long way in 30 years, especially when you are motivated by people trying to kill you.

No, in Mormon 6:6, Mormon reports that he hid the plates of Nephi in the Hill Cumorah where they had camped waiting for the Lamanites to come and fight them, and gave just a “few plates” to Moroni.

Moroni must have had ready access to Mormon’s hiding place, because he inexplicably has the 24 plates of Limhi (Ether 1:2) from which he abridges the Book of Ether.

After completing his work on the Book of Ether, Moroni updates the few plates Mormon gave him, then hides them with the plates his father, Mormon, had hidden in the hill Cumorah. So it seems obvious that the last battles took place at the same Cumorah where the plates were hidden and later found by Joseph Smith - the hill Cumorah in New York.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

I’m sorry, but I just don’t accept the Book of Mormon and Mein Kampf are equivalent. For one thing the Book of Mormon was supposedly written as a way to convert Native Americans to Christianity and save them. Mein Kampf was written in support of exterminating the Jews and others who Hitler despised. So the intent of the two books is totally different.

What Hitler might have thought about the Book of Mormon (are you sure he even heard of it?) has nothing to do with the actual intent of the Book of Mormon itself. The intention of the Book of Mormon to convert the “Lamanites” to Christianity is apparent. For those who see any missionary work to convert non-Christians as somehow warped, that won’t seem to be a noble end, but I think most Christians would at least admit the intention to convert Native Americans to Christianity is valid.

Agreed. That would be like condemning the bible because of Charlie Manson’s take on it.

 

[BDawg]

No, in Mormon 6:6, Mormon reports that he hid the plates of Nephi in the Hill Cumorah where they had camped waiting for the Lamanites to come and fight them, and gave just a “few plates” to Moroni.

Moroni must have had ready access to Mormon’s hiding place, because he inexplicably has the 24 plates of Limhi (Ether 1:2) from which he abridges the Book of Ether.

After completing his work on the Book of Ether, Moroni updates the few plates Mormon gave, then hides them with the plates his father, Mormon, had hidden in the hill Cumorah. So it seems obvious that the last battles took place at the same Cumorah where the plates were hidden and later found by Joseph Smith - the hill Cumorah in New York.

That’s a good point, Paul. But you have to admit that people are always naming new places with names from their old lands. Happens all the time.

If Moroni had the plates hidden in a hill called “Cumorah,” collected them, wandered for 30 years, and then buried them in another hill, it would be natural for him to call that hill by the same name. It served the same function, after all.

Almost all the work of abridgment had already been done by the time Moroni took the plates and went wandering. It’s not too big of a stretch to figure he took his Father’s plates and Ether’s plates (there were only 24 of them), tacked a few things on the end of what his father had done, and buried them.

 

[Jerusha]

Agreed. That would be like condemning the bible because of Charlie Manson’s take on it.

And that having as much reason to it as condemning a Viking interpretation of the BOM because that was the way Hitler read it.

ALL SAY PRETZELS!!!