Looking for proof

[Rightlydivide]

Please provide proof of one doctrine, dogma, discipline, or anything that comes from the early Christian church not found in the Bible. Prove that it comes from the early church. The only two documents from the first century are the Didache and 1st Clement, I THINK, so it would probably have to be in them. Unless someone knows of some other proof or early document. PROVE that things not found in the Bible come from the early church.
Please.
Thank you.
Have a nice day.

 

[jay29]

This is by 155AD. Who knows the actual start date?

St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place. The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.
When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.
Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.
When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.
Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.
He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.
When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: ‘Amen.’
When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.

**St. Justin, Apol. 1, 65-67G 6,428-429; the text before the asterisk (*) is from chap. 67
**

 

[Jlcastagna]

Read the letters from Ignatious of Antioch all written from 100-110

 

[awalt]

Oh there are so many! And many more writings than you cite. Here is just a sample:

Proclaiming Mary the Mother of God, Irenaeus:
“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian on the primacy of Peter:
“Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?” (*Demurrer Against the Heretics *22 [A.D. 200]).

Pope Clement on the authority of the Pope:
“Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us *, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy” (*Letter to the Corinthians *1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).

…and by Igantius of Antioch:
“Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father” (*Letter to the Romans *1:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus on papal succession:
“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus” (*Against Heresies *3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).

…and by Tertullian:
“[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter” (*Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]).

 

[AllSaints1631]

Please provide proof of one doctrine, dogma, discipline, or anything that comes from the early Christian church not found in the Bible. Prove that it comes from the early church. The only two documents from the first century are the Didache and 1st Clement, I THINK, so it would probably have to be in them. Unless someone knows of some other proof or early document. PROVE that things not found in the Bible come from the early church.
Please.
Thank you.
Have a nice day.

I don’t think this would be an easy task. Several early church fathers made statements that would not agree with present day Catolicism. Aquinas, Bernard and Ambrose all made statements of this nature.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I don’t think this would be an easy task. Several early church fathers made statements that would not agree with present day Catolicism. Aquinas, Bernard and Ambrose all made statements of this nature.

Aquinas, Barnard, and Ambrose** weren’t infallible**. The Magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church on faith and moral is infallible.

 

[AllSaints1631]

Aquinas, Barnard, and Ambrose** weren’t infallible**. The Magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church on faith and moral is infallible.

I understand that but that does constitute that the Catholic church discarded what some of the early church fathers said and went their own way on several issues.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Please provide proof of one doctrine, dogma, discipline, or anything that comes from the early Christian church not found in the Bible. Prove that it comes from the early church. The only two documents from the first century are the Didache and 1st Clement, I THINK, so it would probably have to be in them. Unless someone knows of some other proof or early document. PROVE that things not found in the Bible come from the early church.
Please.
Thank you.
Have a nice day.

Hi, I think your standard based on dates is a bit far fetched because the earilest manuscripts of the NT are a few hundred years after your date of “truth”.

For example the Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus dates around 350 to 400 AD

Maybe someone else knows of a nearly complete copy of the NT before those manuscripts.

 

[Rightlydivide]

For example the Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus dates around 350 to 400 AD

.

So do you advocate the superiority of the Alexandrian(critical) text over the Majority text?

If arguing for the superiority of these, what would you(or anyone else) say about:

Sinaiticus and Vaticanus disagree with each other over 3,000 times in the space of the four Gospels alone.18 This means that one or the other must be wrong 3,000 times.

Just curious about your thoughts on this.

 

[Philthy]

Please provide proof of one doctrine, dogma, discipline, or anything that comes from the early Christian church not found in the Bible. Prove that it comes from the early church. The only two documents from the first century are the Didache and 1st Clement, I THINK, so it would probably have to be in them. Unless someone knows of some other proof or early document. PROVE that things not found in the Bible come from the early church.
Please.
Thank you.
Have a nice day.

You are arbitrarily throwing out a lot of “early” Church stuff - like the letters of Ignatious of Antioch (ca 109 AD). Why would that be? No matter - there is plenty from the Didache I think.

• Some would say that baptism of infants is not found in Scripture, but that is clearly found in the Didache.
• Also, some would say that only baptism by immersion is in the bible, but that is also contradicted by the Didache.
• Some would say that repeating a prayer - or any formal prayer, for that matter - is contradictory to the bible, but that is also found in the Didache: it recommends saying the Our Father 3 times a day.
• The bible is not explicit on abortion - the Didache says “You shall not procure abortion”
• The bible does not promote “confession in Church” the Didache does.
• Fasting before baptism is not found in Scripture, it is in the Didache
• Fasting on Wed and Friday is not in Scripture, but it is in the Didache.
• The term Eucharist is not found in Scripture, it is in the Didache.
• Prohibition against those who are not baptized from receiving the Eucharist is not found in Scripture, it is in the Didache.
• The interpretation of “Do not give that which is holy to dogs” is not found in Scripture, in the Didache it is explained as explicitly referring to not allowing the unbaptized to receive the Eucharist
• There are no prayers listed in the NT other than the Our Father, there are many prayers which are the given in the Didache as the appropriate form of Christian worship. These prayers are alluded to in Scripture (Acts 2:42) as “the prayers” but they are revealed in the Didache.
• No mention of what constitutes Sunday worship is found in Scripture; the Didache says to gather together, break bread and give thanks after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure; and even an impure neighbor may render your sacrifice defiled!

 

[Philthy]

Now we will take a peak at Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians:

• Scripture nowhere indicates that Christ gave instructions on the content, timing or order of worship; Clement says that "the Master…has commanded the offerings and services…be celebrated…not carelessly nor in disorder, but at fixed times and hours.
• No distinction of who may offer offerings and services is made in Scripture; Clement differentiates between the high priest, priests, and the laymen(who are bound by ordinances)
• Scripture does not record that the Apostles made arrangements for their offices when they died; Clement says “they appointed those… already mentioned, and…added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry.”
• Scripture does not mention that any writings of men other than Scripture are inspired by the holy Spirit; Clement says “(be) obedient to the things which we have written through the holy Spirit…”

 

[ABostonCatholic]

Subscribing to post.

 

[Rightlydivide]

PhilthyYou are arbitrarily throwing out a lot of “early” Church stuff - like the letters of Ignatious of Antioch (ca 109 AD). Why would that be? No matter - there is plenty from the Didache I think.
Some would say that baptism of infants is not found in Scripture, but that is clearly found in the Didache.

It does not say the infants should be baptized.

One article on the topic in fact says

While the earliest extra-biblical directions for baptism,which occurs in the Didache (c. 100), seems to envisage the baptism of adults, rather than young children, since it requires that the person to be baptized should fast

The Didache says:

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

Philthy Also, some would say that only baptism by immersion is in the bible, but that is also contradicted by the Didache.

IF you have no living water. It allows an exception “IF” you have no living water.

•PhilthySome would say that repeating a prayer - or any formal prayer, for that matter - is contradictory to the bible, but that is also found in the Didache: it recommends saying the Our Father 3 times a day.

Yes it does. This version of the prayer:

We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom;** for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever**.

•**Philthy **The bible is not explicit on abortion - the Didache says “You shall not procure abortion”

I would say that thou shalt not kill is clear enough.

PhilthyThe bible does not promote “confession in Church” the Didache does.

The Didache says

But every Lord’s day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions

It says nothing about confessing to a priest.

Philthy Fasting before baptism is not found in Scripture, it is in the Didache

It says

But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized

I do not know if Catholic priests always fast before baptizing.

You are correct that this is not in scripture and that the in scripture people were baptized on the spot.

**Act 8:38
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. **

•Philthy Fasting on Wed and Friday is not in Scripture, but it is in the Didache.

Correct. I was not aware Catholics did this since it appears to be a tradition not found in scripture.

•Philthy The term Eucharist is not found in Scripture, it is in the Didache.

Correct. It is a Greek word and it is not used in scripture.

•PhilthyProhibition against those who are not baptized from receiving the Eucharist is not found in Scripture, it is in the Didache.

Correct. Scripture does not say either way. Although the indications that they are Christians is enough that we only partake with other Christians.

•Philthy The interpretation of “Do not give that which is holy to dogs” is not found in Scripture, in the Didache it is explained as explicitly referring to not allowing the unbaptized to receive the Eucharist

Correct. It is an interpretation.

 

[Rightlydivide]

•Philthy There are no prayers listed in the NT other than the Our Father,

Not true

lengthy passages of the New Testament are prayers or canticles (see also the Book of Odes), such as the Prayer for forgiveness (Mark 11:25-26), the Lord’s Prayer, the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55), the Benedictus (Luke 1:68-79), Jesus’ prayer to the one true God (John 17), Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:3-14), the Believers’ Prayer (Acts 4:23-31), may this cup be taken from me (Matthew 26:36-44), Pray that you will not fall into temptation (Luke 22:39-46), Saint Stephen’s Prayer (Acts 7:59-60), Simon Magus’ Prayer (Acts 8:24), pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men (2 Thessalonians 3:1-2]

•Philthy there are many prayers which are the given in the Didache as the appropriate form of Christian worship. These prayers are alluded to in Scripture (Acts 2:42) as “the prayers” but they are revealed in the Didache.

I do not agree with your premise.

•**Philthy **No mention of what constitutes Sunday worship is found in Scripture; the Didache says to gather together, break bread and give thanks after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure; and even an impure neighbor may render your sacrifice defiled!

What the Bible says about worship. The Saturday and Sunday part is too long to get into.

Act 2:42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

1Cr 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1Cr 14:29 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Some parts not discussed:

But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there’s a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges.
Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord

Apostles, despite Catholics claiming they would have Apostolic Succession and teach the correct doctrines, can be false prophets. It does not say they are not Apostles, it accepts they are. It says that Apostles can be false prophets. And they are still “apostles” when they go away.
It also says the congregation appoints their own bishops and deacons as I have contended since I have been on this forum.
Nothing about apostolic succession. Each congregation appoints their own bishops.
the Catholic Encyclopedia admits this is the early biblical pattern in its article on the Didache

But the chief point is the ministry. It is twofold: (1) local and (2) itinerant. — (1) The local ministers are bishops and deacons, as in St. Paul (Phil., i, 1) and St. Clement. Presbyters are not mentioned, and the bishops are clearly presbyter-bishops, as in Acts, xx, and in the Pastoral Epistles of St. Paul.

 

[Rightlydivide]

I will complete my response to
Clement at a later time.

 

[Jlcastagna]

Philthy,

Only one word:** Awesome! **thanks, this is the reason I come to the forums to gain knowledge and resources.

May God bless and protect us,
JLC

 

[Philthy]

It does not say the infants should be baptized.

Im sorry - my mistake. I was thinking of another letter referencing whether infant baptism should occur immediately or on the 8th day - ?Cyprian of Carthage - 3rd Century

IF you have no living water. It allows an exception “IF” you have no living water.

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? You asked for extrabiblical traditions found in the Didache or Clements Letter to the Corinthians, right? This is an example of exactly what you asked for.

Yes it does. This version of the prayer:
We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom;** for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever**.

Uhhhh, not according to my source. Yours is the prayer to be said “in regard to the Eucharist”. The Our Father prayer, which is to be said 3 times as I mentioned, is as follows:
“Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the power and the glory forever. Pray thus 3 times a day.”

The request to say that prayer 3 times is extrabiblical yet documented in the early Church as you requested.
Your prayer is also extrabiblical and is also documented in the early church - again as you requested.
My sense is you are not agreeing that these are examples of extrabiblical practices found in the early Church - which is confusing to me.
Lastly, the part of the prayer that you bolded is also an extrabiblical tradition “first found in Syrian usage… It is found in numerous scripture manuscripts, but not in those of greater authority…its presence in various scripture manuscripts is easily explained as a copyists error.” The Faith of the Early Fathers, WA Jurgens, page 5, #3. We pray it (For thine is the kingdom…) at each Mass at the end of the Our Father.

I would say that thou shalt not kill is clear enough.

I studied with an evangelical pastor who entertained the notion that, just like Adam who had life “breathed” into him, we are not alive before our first breath. I would agree with you, but my point is that not all Christians agree that the bible is expicit on this topic.

It says nothing about confessing to a priest.

And neither did I say anything about confessing to a priest, so what is your point in bringing it up?
Here is the verse I was referring to from the Didache:
“Confess your offenses in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life.”
As it stands, the bible does not require you to confess you sins in Church - the Didache does. Im guessing that in the OP you meant to ask for Catholic practices found in those 2 letters that arent in the bible? :ehh:

I do not know if Catholic priests always fast before baptizing.

I can tell you if they arent fasting nobody is! The point, again, is that it is an extrabiblical tradition in the early Church.

Correct. I was not aware Catholics did this since it appears to be a tradition not found in scripture.

Fasting on Friday is very common - I fast every Friday. Wednesdays Im not familiar with. Good day for bible study though!

Correct. It is a Greek word and it is not used in scripture.

The NT was almost entirely Greek, right?

Correct. Scripture does not say either way. Although the indication (from Scripture is that if) they are Christians (then that) is enough (for them to partake in the Eucharist). Scripture (indicates) that we only partake with other Christians.

I edited your original statement above (in blue) to clarify your intended meaning - I hope it was accurate. Nevertheless, with respect to the quote from the Didache, I think your missing the deeper point: apparently these Didache folks didnt consider you “Christian” if you hadn’t been baptized. That was the “line in the sand” for them. They would probably say that calling yourself a Christian without having been baptized is…extrabiblical.

 

[Philthy]

"philthy's first post:

There are no prayers listed in the NT other than the Our Father, there are many prayers which are the given in the Didache as the appropriate form of Christian worship…

Not true

You then went on to list a number of things people prayed in the NT, but none of these are given for OTHERS to pray. That was my point: the only prayer given specifically for us to pray in the NT was the Lord’s prayer. Yet in the Didache they have several prayers that are the “official” prayers for Baptism, The Eucharist, etc. for the faithful to pray.

What the Bible says about worship. The Saturday and Sunday part is too long to get into.

Agreed.

Act 2:42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

These activities are not specifically identified as “worship”, and if Im not mistaken, these were DAILY events (just like in the Catholic Church!) -see Acts 2:46. I think it is quite telling that that last word is not translated as “praying”, but as “in prayers” or, as in my NAB, as “in the prayers”. They werent merely “praying”, but they were saying “prayers”.

1Cr 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

This isnt particularly instructive.[Q[/COLOR]UOTE]
1Cr 14:29 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Ditto

1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Ditto

 

[Rightlydivide]

Thank you Philthy for your answers. As far as the Clement verses, I had a difficult time because the did not have a chapter and verse. If you could provide please.

 

[Philthy]

Some parts not discussed:
Apostles, despite Catholics claiming they would have Apostolic Succession and teach the correct doctrines, can be false prophets. It does not say they are not A