Looking for references about planetary movement

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sophie1

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Hi–

I am having an ongoing discussion with my beloved son-in-law who is a young-earth creationist. He takes certain parts of the Bible literally (like the creation account) yet other parts allegorically (like the Bread of Life discourse). It would be helpful for me if I knew what the Bible said (if anything) about planetary movement. Any suggestions?
 
sophie1 said:
Hi–

I am having an ongoing discussion with my beloved son-in-law who is a young-earth creationist. He takes certain parts of the Bible literally (like the creation account) yet other parts allegorically (like the Bread of Life discourse). It would be helpful for me if I knew what the Bible said (if anything) about planetary movement. Any suggestions?
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The only thing that I came up with is Joshua 10:12-14

I don’t know if this helps or if in fact it is what you are looking for.

JeanneH
 
Hi Sophie,

I think one of the weaknesses to taking the creation account in Genesis as literal is that there are actually two accounts that differ in order of creation and more importantly how man was created. If this is to be taken literally why the discrepancies?

Another thing to point out is Genesis refers to the moon as a “lesser light” to govern the sky at night. Science shows that unlike the sun, the moon does not give off light, only reflects it. In a strictly literal sense does that really make the moon a “lesser light”? No, but does that mean the story is not true – no, only not literal.

I hope this helps some.

ChadS
 
I’d really not bother if I were you. Such discussions are hopeless. I’m sure your son in law is not mentally defective. That leaves either such total fear about displeasing God that he refuses to look at the evidence and seeks only wacko science to support his belief or he knows better and still feels so afraid that God will punish his disloyalty that he will never give in. He will undoubtedly keep seaching for the pseudoscience that supports his emotional need. Hope your daughter can handle this strange aberation.
 
I have a co-worker who has an IQ in the low 160s, get his first college degree when he was 19 and in 13 years of working with the software engineer, I have never known him to make a significant technical mistake. In short, he is simply the most intelligent man I have ever known. He is also incredibly humble and he is my good friend (even if you can see a picture of him in the dictionary next to the definition of “nerd”.).

He is a fundamentalist Christian. He also believes in young-Earth creationism.

When I was an atheist, we had some really very interesting discussions about this. He made some very interesting points.

Now that I am Catholic, our discussions are a bit different! 🙂

Personally, I do not have a problem with either point of view. I myself hold to the idea that God guided everything up to the point where there were a literal Adam and Eve who fell from grace and brought on the curse of Original Sin. The details of how God brought the Universe to that point do not seem terribly important to me.

And to answer to basic question, I do not believe the Bible discusses planetary movement. Nor do I see how that is relevant. The Bible, the revealed Word of God, is not meant to be a treatise on science, the natural world or even an historical account. It is intended to teach spiritual truths. It may contain references to the natural world, science and history, and those references are absolutely correct, but from the perspective of teaching a spiritual truth.
 
sophie1 said:
Hi–

I am having an ongoing discussion with my beloved son-in-law who is a young-earth creationist. He takes certain parts of the Bible literally (like the creation account) yet other parts allegorically (like the Bread of Life discourse). It would be helpful for me if I knew what the Bible said (if anything) about planetary movement. Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Hi,
Why do you think info. on the planetary movements would help your POV?

What is your POV?and Why does it bother you that he is a young earth creationist?

My church believes the earth is young as well.Some theologians who have studied this out from time lines within the bible say that the earth is young 6–10,000 years old:shrug: I havent studied but I dont really care anyway how old the earth is. But I do care that God did create the earth exactly the way He said He did in Genesis. Of course this belief is by faith and trust in what God tells us through the bible;)

Thanks:D
 
SpiritMeadow said:
I’d really not bother if I were you. Such discussions are hopeless. I’m sure your son in law is not mentally defective. That leaves either such total fear about displeasing God that he refuses to look at the evidence and seeks only wacko science to support his belief or he knows better and still feels so afraid that God will punish his disloyalty that he will never give in. He will undoubtedly keep seaching for the pseudoscience that supports his emotional need. Hope your daughter can handle this strange aberation.
Click to expand...
It’s probably easy to write off a stranger. But this is my son-in-law and he really is a good man. He’s a loving husband and father. He does his best to follow God to the best of his understanding. I’m mostly concerned about my grandchildren. I teach biology and I want my grandkids to keep their minds open about science…
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi,
Why do you think info. on the planetary movements would help your POV?

What is your POV?and Why does it bother you that he is a young earth creationist?

My church believes the earth is young as well.Some theologians who have studied this out from time lines within the bible say that the earth is young 6–10,000 years old:shrug: I havent studied but I dont really care anyway how old the earth is. But I do care that God did create the earth exactly the way He said He did in Genesis. Of course this belief is by faith and trust in what God tells us through the bible;)

Thanks:D
Click to expand...
As I responded in another post, my concern is that my grandchildren remain open to what science has to say about the physical world. I think it’s important for people of faith not to bury their heads in the sand and hope science goes away. I think we lose credibility that way. And credibility matters because we want people to be open to what Christians have to say about salvation. We have to know how to read sacred Scripture. We have to know when to interpret things literally and when to interpret them allegorically.

To return to my original question, my son-in-law has no trouble believing the earth revolves around the sun. I was hoping to find some references to the older geocentric belief so as to help him get past his literalmindedness when it comes to creation of species…
 
sophie1 said:
It’s probably easy to write off a stranger. But this is my son-in-law and he really is a good man. He’s a loving husband and father. He does his best to follow God to the best of his understanding. I’m mostly concerned about my grandchildren. I teach biology and I want my grandkids to keep their minds open about science…
Click to expand...
I do not think it is a matter writing anyone off. The first question you must yourself is, “Does this really matter to the salvation of his soul and his family’s souls?”

If the answer is anything other than “No,” I think a time long and careful thought is in order. Believing that God created the Universe a few thousand years ago does not mean people are not open to science. This is illustrated in my earlier post regarding my co-worker and friend. The man is incredibly intelligent and exceptionally well educated in the sciences, but he believes God created everything a few thousand years ago.

Perhaps you should consider seeing the movie “Expelled” when it comes out next week.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi,
Why do you think info. on the planetary movements would help your POV?

What is your POV?and Why does it bother you that he is a young earth creationist?

My church believes the earth is young as well.Some theologians who have studied this out from time lines within the bible say that the earth is young 6–10,000 years old:shrug: I havent studied but I dont really care anyway how old the earth is. But I do care that God did create the earth exactly the way He said He did in Genesis. Of course this belief is by faith and trust in what God tells us through the bible;)

Thanks:D
Click to expand...
Off the subject, but what is “POV”?
 
rpp said:
I have a co-worker who has an IQ in the low 160s, get his first college degree when he was 19 and in 13 years of working with the software engineer, I have never known him to make a significant technical mistake. In short, he is simply the most intelligent man I have ever known. He is also incredibly humble and he is my good friend (even if you can see a picture of him in the dictionary next to the definition of “nerd”.).

He is a fundamentalist Christian. He also believes in young-Earth creationism.

When I was an atheist, we had some really very interesting discussions about this. He made some very interesting points.

Now that I am Catholic, our discussions are a bit different! 🙂

Personally, I do not have a problem with either point of view. I myself hold to the idea that God guided everything up to the point where there were a literal Adam and Eve who fell from grace and brought on the curse of Original Sin. The details of how God brought the Universe to that point do not seem terribly important to me.

And to answer to basic question, I do not believe the Bible discusses planetary movement. Nor do I see how that is relevant. The Bible, the revealed Word of God, is not meant to be a treatise on science, the natural world or even an historical account. It is intended to teach spiritual truths. It may contain references to the natural world, science and history, and those references are absolutely correct, but from the perspective of teaching a spiritual truth.
Click to expand...
I don’t disagree with your basic statement.As I have said, there are three ways to go here IMO. People who simply are not bright enough to grasp the concepts, those that can do so but refuse because it frightens them, and those that know full well they are wrong but find it so frightening they search only to refute it. The dinosaur bones were planted by God to catch the non-believer syndrome.

Unlike you, do not think its okay that he wants to believe in his silly ideas. This kind of insanity must stop. We are falling behind intellectually badly in this country. This evolution YEC **** is unknown in other countries of our stature. It is absurd to uphold ignorance and flimsy thinking in order to accomodate those who have psychological needs. It is inappropriate in my mind to tell them it’s okay. They are flat wrong, and it does no good to pander to such pretend science. Surely our children should not have to be subjected to non-science like this.
 
sophie1 said:
It’s probably easy to write off a stranger. But this is my son-in-law and he really is a good man. He’s a loving husband and father. He does his best to follow God to the best of his understanding. I’m mostly concerned about my grandchildren. I teach biology and I want my grandkids to keep their minds open about science…
Click to expand...
I recognize your dilemma and I am not taking it at all lightly to be sure. It has been my experience over the years that such people are simply not amenable to rational logical argument. The need to believe this **** is simply too strong. You threaten their safety zone, one albeit they have falsely erected. Unfortunately people like your son-in-law, if they change, usually become atheists. They feel lied to when they finally accept the truth, and the liars are the church that taught them this. they reject religion totally unfortunately most of the time. I am at a loss how you can protect your grandkids from this. Such can certainly lead to a serious family problem that often gets resolved by a parting of the ways. i know you would not wish this.

As I said, it has nothing to do with inate intelligence most of the time. It’s a mind device that is useful to protect a person from dealing with the uncertainties of life. They will not give it up willingly in most cases. Best of luck to you.
 
rpp said:
I do not think it is a matter writing anyone off. The first question you must yourself is, “Does this really matter to the salvation of his soul and his family’s souls?”

If the answer is anything other than “No,” I think a time long and careful thought is in order. Believing that God created the Universe a few thousand years ago does not mean people are not open to science. This is illustrated in my earlier post regarding my co-worker and friend. The man is incredibly intelligent and exceptionally well educated in the sciences, but he believes God created everything a few thousand years ago.

Perhaps you should consider seeing the movie “Expelled” when it comes out next week.
Click to expand...
Please peruse the web. Expelled is touted roundly as a piece of the usual junk science that tries to pass itself off as science to a largely unsophisticated audience. Plenty of the people asked to participate on the science side said it became quite apparent that certain questions were asked again and again in an attempt to extract an answer they could “use” for their particular point of view, i.e, that ID was science. Yech, Don’t see Expelled, it’s absolute garbage.
 
sophie1 said:
It’s probably easy to write off a stranger. But this is my son-in-law and he really is a good man. He’s a loving husband and father. He does his best to follow God to the best of his understanding. I’m mostly concerned about my grandchildren. I teach biology and I want my grandkids to keep their minds open about science…
Click to expand...
Your best approach then would be very careful not to put the children between yours and your son-in-law’s debate. When your grandchildren ask you questions give them your honest answers but always remember that what they want from you as a grandparent is loving support for their father.

I had a most interesting conversation with a friend who is a “free-thinker.” She was horrified that her son had joined a fundamental Christian Church. She was in tears and mourned, “But, I raised him to be a free-thinker.” I tried to explain that he was doing exactly what she had done. He was rebelling against his parents. We tried to console her saying that there are are worse things that he could have gotten involved in. She said, “No. There isn’t.”

I almost said, “Well he could have become a Catholic.” But at that point I realized that would have carried the conversation to far. I didn’t want to get into a debate, at that point, about my beliefs which are so foreign to her way of thinking.

What I am trying to say is, "Your grandchildren will be fine. Their father is a good man and their grandmother is a good grandmother and let me tell you truly; that is worth more than all the stars in the world put together.

p.s. I want to add: it is very hard for my friend to accept my being a Catholic but we somehow work it out.
 
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