Looking Forward to Thoughts

  • Thread starter Thread starter MartinThinking
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

MartinThinking

Guest
Hi…I’m a little curious about something as a Catholic and thought it wouldn’t hurt to find out what others may understand

I was reading the Catholic Ency. with respects to the understandings of The Holy Spirit. Perhaps I mis-understood something which was explained and commentary will allow for better understanding.

The Catholic Encyl. explains that the Holy Spirit proceeds from The Trinity. We learn that the Holy Spirit is an individual yet part of The Trinity and is The Love between Father and Son
Further explanations allow us to understand the, will guidance and love of the Holy Spirit comprised in of itself as The Love between God the Father and Jesus.

When we say the Glory Be…we recite acknowledgment and praise of The Trinity including
…“as it was in the beginning”
Also, its my understanding that The Holy Spirit was in essence the reality of God which in effect
was the cause of the Word of God Becoming Jesus The Son of God.

So how can The Holy Spirit be from the beginning as well create with Mary Our Lord, if The Catholic Ency explains that the Holy Spirit is in actuality…The Love between The Father and the Son…
Simply wondering if theres something I’m missing in the guidance and thought subject may provide for inspirational understandings
 
Christ was “In the beginning” as well. Though he was not yet flesh he always existed. It even directly states as much at the start of the Gospel of John.

John 1:1 states:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

then after more details

John 1:14 states:The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So there was no time in which the Son did not exist, and thus no time in which there was not love between the Father and the Son.

Understanding the trinity in its fullness is considered impossible though, so don’t dwell on it too much.
 
Great question.

I’ve tried looking back to find out how the Jewish people in the Old Testament would have considered the Holy Spirit.

To compare their understanding of the Holy Spirit in their lives to how we consider the Holy Spirit (personal and indwelling).
 
Barbkw said:
Great question.

I’ve tried looking back to find out how the Jewish people in the Old Testament would have considered the Holy Spirit.

To compare their understanding of the Holy Spirit in their lives to how we consider the Holy Spirit (personal and indwelling).
Click to expand...
Just getting in from work. I was really worried there might not be a reply. So…really relieved and thanks so much Patrick and Barbkw

Ive been wondering about this for about 6 weeks and it really bothered me. I like reading Alphonsis Ligouiri and the older writings so am not equipped with a prof knowledge of the Bible. I did not know that the actual “love” between the Father and The Son was in fact
The Holy Spirit. I think this makes perfect sense.

When you think about it (just thinking out loud) if two people , perhaps sisters ,brothers friends, parent child…have a very positive and unselfish giving relationship…it is there in its experience of goodness , waiting and available for others.

The goodness is real, perhaps independent of human fear , survival and such. So this is good .

. .
.
 
I noticed a thread that was discussing the Trinity and thought about it for a few minutes. Then I thought…well maybe the Trinity isn’t a mystery and we can understand it. Anyway heres what I was thinking and maybe it makes sense…I don’t know but it kinda pulled a few things together in the vitality and dimension of God which gave me a good feeling

.Its posted for critisism with respects to …The Trinity not being a…mystery…As well …if there is anything which is out of order with the Catholic guidance…don’t want to have the wrong thinking…you never know and I think its important to keep on track

When you think about it …how could a real God be without a dimension which is greater than the “oneness we understand” ourselves to be. It just wouldn’t make sense and would be more of a mystery . I’m being very small here if I may… but I think we can understand it.
.
Lets look at the two interesting examples…the one with water and the glass’s plus the other very helpful and creative idea of the one person being sister, mother and wife I think it was.
( these were good examples helping to explain the Mystery …where 3 personalities are one person and…3 glass’s of water from the same pitcher of water. All the same water

In each of these “great idea’s” there is something which is held in common. Lets see if we can find that something and further see if this is in keeping with our good Belief.

If God is Love, as well all powerful and so on, what also would that tell us…?
Yes…God would be perfect order…that is entirely …“without disorder”

In our examples there is also a lack of dis-order…How is that Martin…?

Well…the three personalities in the one women and the water idea regardless of
the state of being in different glass’s or the one pitcher are… self consistent. In other words
there is no adjustment or mixing distribution required in the various forms.

There is no…disorder.in the consistency regardless of distribution. Therefore…
we have…Unity.regardless of state ( pitcher-glass’s…Mother-sister-wife)

A loving all powerful God would consist of ultimate order thus ultimate …UNITY.

Without our Trinity, Unity would be… amiss .There must be Unity within… Divinity…

The concept of Divine Wholeness is complete with the inclusion of…Unity and would be
in keeping with All loving Perfect Order …and the God that would…Be God.

A depreciation in Mystery… within The Trinity. A further help in comprehension… availed in the Trinity itself

A perfect God to be friends with in our interesting interior pathway…

Uniting together…towards doing our best !

When you think about it…it is in the lack of unity which befolds much our imperfect state within ourselves and society or…humanity.

The lack of unity between our animal survival fear and so on …vrs… the essence of ourselves our Soul. As well the Unity amongst ourselves and mankind.

When we work and play together…it is constructive, ordered and fruitful. Unity is God-like.
Perhaps the Ultimate Unity within the Trinity is an attribute or factuality of perfect order and perfect Unity. An association through prayer ect unfolding a ease with extending the qualitative
reality of love and unity. I just don’t see how the Trinity is a Mystery. I think it would be a fuither mystery without the Trinity reality. With that I must acknowledge a distinct advantage in the comprehension of God. Within the Trinity we can find a wholeness which allows for greater
understanding. Not a mysterious un-familiar nature in God.

Ultimately or logically there must be…an ultimate unifying reality with in a Perfect God…thus The Trinity
 
There are certainly truths of the trinity that we can understand, the term mystery is used to allude to the idea that we are not capable of a complete understanding.

In your example of the glasses and pitcher the same water would have to be both in the Glasses and the Pitcher at the same time. Even so, it isn’t that it is meant to be something we don’t discuss or have any understanding of, it is just that the greater aspects of the trinity are believed to be beyond our realm of thought. As in there are questions about it that we wouldn’t even think to ask given all eternity. To fully understand the trinity would be to fully understand the very nature of God, and we don’t even fully understand the nature of man yet.

Also, you might try putting your thoughts into a clearer more concise format. I can sort of grasp where you are coming from and what you are getting at, but it seems as if you are just typing as things come to mind. It is something that works for typical conversation, but on forums clarity is more important since responses are more spaced out and if we can’t understand what you mean then it takes extra time asking for clarification before we can address the point you were truly trying to make. Not trying to be critical, it may just be that your message style is simply difficult for me in particular to read and everyone else if fine, but as an engineer I certainly appreciate well thought and concise messages.
 
PatrickSebast said:
There are certainly truths of the trinity that we can understand, the term mystery is used to allude to the idea that we are not capable of a complete understanding.

In your example of the glasses and pitcher the same water would have to be both in the Glasses and the Pitcher at the same time. Even so, it isn’t that it is meant to be something we don’t discuss or have any understanding of, it is just that the greater aspects of the trinity are believed to be beyond our realm of thought. As in there are questions about it that we wouldn’t even think to ask given all eternity. To fully understand the trinity would be to fully understand the very nature of God, and we don’t even fully understand the nature of man yet.

Also, you might try putting your thoughts into a clearer more concise format. I can sort of grasp where you are coming from and what you are getting at, but it seems as if you are just typing as things come to mind. It is something that works for typical conversation, but on forums clarity is more important since responses are more spaced out and if we can’t understand what you mean then it takes extra time asking for clarification before we can address the point you were truly trying to make. Not trying to be critical, it may just be that your message style is simply difficult for me in particular to read and everyone else if fine, but as an engineer I certainly appreciate well thought and concise messages.
Click to expand...
Ohh… such an indignant commentary
 
MartinThinking said:
Ohh… such an indignant commentary
Click to expand...
I don’t mean to be indignant, but I honestly am having difficulty completely grasping everything you were trying to get across in post #5. If you don’t want to change your posting style or feel that it is fine then simply don’t, I won’t make mention of it again. I only said it because I was trying to converse with you and having difficulty.
 
It seems like there is a problem. If one explains things in an unnecessary complex manner nothing is achieved , save the self comprehension of needless dis-ordered pointless exaltation.
The Bible and the message of Our Lord is simple. Love, Charity, Sacrifice. Period. Yet man insists on creating Hersey’s, arguments, wars all for what? The self inordinate claims of…
I’m correct, I cannot learn anything from you. You shall learn from myself.\

One way or another man insists on denying his becoming principal…oh in philosophical terms that means …Life.
Oh yes says the insecure , my estimation is that , although I do not know yourself, I wager that my education is further enhanced. Therefore I wager, I know to a greater extent. I shall not learn but direct… I am substantial. relative to…“something”

I am a Classical Pianist of good standing and have had many students as well enjoy my continued challenge in the artistic world of expression, creativity, unity and joy which is only possible in acceptance of our fellow man.Period.

Never have I seen within general discussions, esp philosophy sections in this forum the quantity of burnt charcoal exclaiming …I know everything.And Ive read quite a bit of classical and contemporary philosophy …including the Chalmers business.
I( am horrified with the chaos within what Ive seen so far in this unorganized self exalting forum !

Get with the Charitable program folks !..I have found working with what seems irrational in expression.the highest measure in exploring merit in reason by demarcation. More than often a door is opened. A door showing more. Yes more… Man this is getting annoying. I may drop the comp talk and get back to helping the deadbeats. Thanks for the inspiration…what a drag

So tired of badge flashers on line… ( This is a Charitable entry comprising an estimation of need for value)
 
I’m sorry Martin, but it seems to me as 2 different persons have posted in your name. I mean, in reading your 1st. post, it looks to me that the OP was a different person that the rest of the posts in you name were written by some one else…🤷
 
It would seem that constructive criticism makes Martin a little bit upset.
 
Like said:
I’m sorry Martin, but it seems to me as 2 different persons have posted in your name. I mean, in reading your 1st. post, it looks to me that the OP was a different person that the rest of the posts in you name were written by some one else…🤷
Click to expand...
Arguing is for what…?

This is a charitable explanation in defense of hope, to avoid argumentative exchange.

I’m sorry as well. The content of above invites explanation subject to approval which invariably leads to argument due to direct personal nature. Not without explicit augmentation the shrug is an ill-defined negative expressing an unusual as well odd evaluation, casting dissatisfaction.

Left at the end of quote offered shrug defines a loss of hope or expected lack in reasonable explanation. . .

Clearly promotion of further argument in a well defined presumptive assumption.

I do not like arguing.The thread is obviously without meaning at this point. However I may discuss something else which can hopefully come close to the great day I had… going over the
idea of todays post . So be it…
 
PatrickSebast said:
I don’t mean to be indignant, but I honestly am having difficulty completely grasping everything you were trying to get across in post #5. If you don’t want to change your posting style or feel that it is fine then simply don’t, I won’t make mention of it again. I only said it because I was trying to converse with you and having difficulty.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry but I fail to understand how one can comment…“I sorta think I grasp what your saying”
and not ask but …1…question. Unless there is no interest. That would make sense.

Instead however a complaint with respects to ignorance followed by a presentation of academics. You guys are putting me on. Tomorrow I will think of something more interesting.

No leg pullin.
 
@OP: What I find hilarious is that even with all of “your” intelligence you have, somehow, failed to understand that Patrick was not criticizing your points but rather the format and style in which you have presented them.

I have read your posts and must admit I have failed to see exactly what new light you have shed that supports your cliam that the Trinity can be fully comprehended by human beings. Did our Lord say in the gospel; “no one knoweth the Son, but the Father and Martin”? Everything that is TRUE and that we know of God has come from God (Divine Revelation) so please enlighten me on how you plan to obtain full knowledge of the Trinity when God Himself has decreed it through Holy Mother Church to remain a Mystery!?

The very claim that man could fully comprehend the Mystery of the Trinity is heretical so I would watch your step. Lastly even a bone-head like myself can see the blatant contradiction that exists when an imperfect being claims it could perfectly comprehend the nature of a Being that is Perfection itself!
 
qOcOp said:
@OP: What I find hilarious is that even with all of “your” intelligence you have, somehow, failed to understand that Patrick was not criticizing your points but rather the format and style in which you have presented them.

I have read your posts and must admit I have failed to see exactly what new light you have shed that supports your cliam that the Trinity can be fully comprehended by human beings. Did our Lord say in the gospel; “no one knoweth the Son, but the Father and Martin”? Everything that is TRUE and that we know of God has come from God (Divine Revelation) so please enlighten me on how you plan to obtain full knowledge of the Trinity when God Himself has decreed it through Holy Mother Church to remain a Mystery!?

The very claim that man could fully comprehend the Mystery of the Trinity is heretical so I would watch your step. Lastly even a bone-head like myself can see the blatant contradiction that exists when an imperfect being claims it could perfectly comprehend the nature of a Being that is Perfection itself!
Click to expand...
Well… …thankyou for referring to my humble little andante. A spirited thought which of course is without any claim in having , exclaiming or suggesting the following ,

" your claim that the Trinity can be fully comprehended by human beings"
" Lastly even a bone-head like myself can see the blatant contradiction that exists when an imperfect being claims it could perfectly comprehend the nature of a Being that is Perfection itself!"

Theres simply no such suggestion. It is an offering allowing for positive thinking in contrast to
something which is defined as…“That which cannot be explained” … inexplicable-mystery.

When spirited folks use pitchers of water, examples of personalities it is an earnest and surely
admirable gesture in attempts to explain and understand… That is the objective.

In all I have read or seen , the idea which was forwarded concerning unity has never been considered. Also offered is the idea which suggests the consequence in understanding God
without the knowledge of The Trinity.

For example, The Trinity in comprehension of God is only 2000 years old. Man has considered
God however for many 1000’s of years before Christianity. The Trinity is insight into the knowledge and understanding of God himself. My viewpoint attempts to project a keener appreciation in the acquired knowledge, rather than installing a cover or hidden inexplicable
destination. Yes man can always understand more. And man will continue to do so. It is
how we are. It is Gods will I would think.

The description of the word mystery is…" inexplicable, hidden" The idea’s regarding pitchers of water and so forth help us understand. There may be something which is missing here.
Each individual is somewhat of a “mystery”. We ourselves are also somewhat of a mystery relative to the self including the unknown procedure in which we …process thought.

How does the brain represent time fellow member? Does it relate to free will? The profound impression of moment to moment flowing time, perhaps realized through a mental back door.
Obviously one would recognize a possible quantum process. Would our thought reflect a real
quantity of time in the world of material objects? Maybe a mental construct…

Are we not all …a mystery? Do we not continue in attempts to explain ourselves?

Thanks for your suggestion “I better watch my step” Last winter I did not watch my step and went for a frightful tumble down a set of stairs. It was icy . I was very lucky not to have injured the spinal ect. Un-believably, just as it was getting a little better, a deer thought to go for a lovely evening stroll in front of my car. I had to pull a Mario Andretti and guess what? Another deer popped out of nowhere! Just missed the little guy.

The tail brushed the fender . So what ?..well the skilled and talented maneuver to get around the deer re-injured the shoulder. Don’t worry, got myself some new footwear which has excellent tracking for un-expected slippery surface’s. So all is good.
 
So long computer talk…Goodbye ! Good Luck ! Have fun! Cherrio ! Cheers! See u in the heavens!
 
I can see I completely misunderstood you. Thank you Mike for sharing your thoughts and I apologize for any offences.

P.s. I’m glad to hear about the shoes.
 
qOcOp said:
I can see I completely misunderstood you. Thank you Mike for sharing your thoughts and I apologize for any offences.

P.s. I’m glad to hear about the shoes.
Click to expand...
Always like to turn and capture a final glimpse accumulating a totality in attempted efforts…
Full comprehension of mis-understanding is with myself I’m afraid as it was I who became sensitive, over annoyed… and posted in like manner… No doubt about it.

The type-talk is very good but I don’t think I’m cut out for it… No biggy I would guess.
Logging out… Have a good day to be sure …
.
 
MartinThinking said:
Hi…I’m a little curious about something as a Catholic and thought it wouldn’t hurt to find out what others may understand

I was reading the Catholic Ency. with respects to the understandings of The Holy Spirit. Perhaps I mis-understood something which was explained and commentary will allow for better understanding.

The Catholic Encyl. explains that the Holy Spirit proceeds from The Trinity. We learn that the Holy Spirit is an individual yet part of The Trinity and is The Love between Father and Son
s
Click to expand...
surprised OP nor anyone else has linked the original article in the OCE on the Holy Ghost
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Holy_Ghost
I don’t find here anywhere, stated as doctrine (rather in the sections challenging incorrect teaching) OP’s statement that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Trinity.
Read especially section IV the Procession.
Can OP please find the passage in question that states it that way?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top