Looking in to some third orders

[drforjc]

The OCD rule requires us to pray the Divine Office morning and evening,

Just for the sake of clarity, this doesn’t bind in the sense of the canonical obligation that require Clergy and Religious to pray the Office.

 

[Sirach2]

Just for the sake of clarity, this doesn’t bind in the sense of the canonical obligation that require Clergy and Religious to pray the Office.

That’s true, but it is an ethical matter that we strive to keep in accord with our promise. However, those who go on to make a vow later on, DO have the obligation. The vow is not a requirement, but an attraction to grace given by the Holy Spirit. I never made the vow. I just professed my final promise for life, three years after the first promise.

(We know how easily a good habit slips away when we neglect it a few times. }

 

[Bookcat]

That’s true, but it is an ethical matter that we strive to keep in accord with our promise. However, those who go on to make a vow later on, DO have the obligation.

I am not a Carmelite - but it seems to me since your Constitutions note:

"They will try to recite Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer of the Hours in union with the Church spread throughout the world. When it is possible they will also recite Night Prayer. "

That even those who have made the vows would not be bound under sin (obligation) to recite those hours. But they too would “try” to recite them.

(maybe it is if they just blow it off…there is sin…do not know…that would be specified by the Order).

Which is still different than the Religious obligation

Of course it is up to your order to specify more (perhaps on the level of a local Province) - I am only reading such from the outside.

 

[angell1]

That’s true, but it is an ethical matter that we strive to keep in accord with our promise. However, those who go on to make a vow later on, DO have the obligation. The vow is not a requirement, but an attraction to grace given by the Holy Spirit. I never made the vow. I just professed my final promise for life, three years after the first promise.

(We know how easily a good habit slips away when we neglect it a few times. }

is it true that OCDs are allowed to profess public vows by the church? I read that somewhere that they are the only third order who can do that.

I think the rule of life of O.CARM is much the same as yours, from what I gather

 

[Bookcat]

is it true that OCDs are allowed to profess public vows by the church? I read that somewhere that they are the only third order who can do that.

I think the rule of life of O.CARM is much the same as yours, from what I gather

From their Constitutions:

1.   All of Christ’s faithful have the right to make vows[32]. With the consent of the Council of the community and the permission of the Provincial, a member of the Secular Order may make vows of obedience and chastity in the presence of the community. These vows are strictly personal and do not create a separate category of membership. They suppose a greater commitment of fidelity to the evangelical life but do not transform those who make them into juridically recognized consecrated people as in Institutes of consecrated life. Those who make vows in the Secular Order continue to be lay persons in all juridical effects.

The Term “public vows” is a particular canonical term regarding the vows religious take.

And no they are not the only ones but it is true that there are only a few third orders that have the possibility of vows -most make a promise that is not a vow.

Example of OCarm who can also make vows : laycarmelites.com/

 

[angell1]

angell1;14100955:

I feel a strong desire to join a third order as a wingle person.

in practical terms, what is the difference between OCD and OCaRM. I can’t really seem to distinguish them besides the fact tha tone was reformed.

OCD means “DIS-calced” or without shoes. They wear sandals in the second order. The OCarms are “calced.” They wear shoes. Neither one would make any difference to a lay person, but the rules of the secular orders may be slightly different in their focus. Not being an OCarm member, I do not know what their rule is.

The promise is one of poverty of spirit

, in other words, we try to avoid attachments that would impede our vocation. We may have possessions, but the heart is the seat of inordinate or excessive attachments, whether of goods or friendships that God does not ordain.

The second order is for religious … the third order is for non-religious, whether married or single. God is the one who inspires the person with an attraction to the spirit of the order, whichever one speaks more strongly to your heart.

The OCD rule requires us to pray the Divine Office morning and evening, spend a half hour in mental prayer daily, and attend daily Mass as far as possible. Of course, it is expected that one will have a strong devotion to Mary, and an attraction to the writings and spirit of the saints of Carmel.

there really does not appear to be any difference where the rule is concerned. I tink there is a slight difference where o.carm focuses a bit more on st. albert and ocd on st. teresa and st. john of the cross. I think o.carm suggest leccio divina for meditation, not sure about OCD, maybe you do it as well and of course both would wear the brown scapular

I guess it will take some visits to figure this one out. based on information alone, doesn’t give much help to differentiate. maybe it will depend on group dynamic.

thanks for the info, god will help me get it all sorted out eventually

do you recommending contacting the orders directly or should I try and track down the vocations director first?

 

[Sirach2]

do you recommending contacting the orders directly or should I try and track down the vocations director first?

The Carmelite monastery should have a listing of the Third Order chapters in your area with the name of the President. Also, your diocese should have contact persons for the various third orders in its jurisdiction.

God bless you as you discern the path Our Lord is calling you to follow.

 

[drforjc]

Sirach2;14103033:

there really does not appear to be any difference where the rule is concerned. I tink there is a slight difference where o.carm focuses a bit more on st. albert and ocd on st. teresa and st. john of the cross. I think o.carm suggest leccio divina for meditation, not sure about OCD, maybe you do it as well and of course both would wear the brown scapular

I guess it will take some visits to figure this one out. based on information alone, doesn’t give much help to differentiate. maybe it will depend on group dynamic.

thanks for the info, god will help me get it all sorted out eventually

do you recommending contacting the orders directly or should I try and track down the vocations director first?

I think practically speaking the spirituality of the two have become very, very similar. My O.Carm community is currently studying The Ascent of Mt. Carmel!

There are probably a few areas where emphases are slightly different but for the most part, according to several persons I’ve spoken with who have been in formation in both orders at one time or another, the similarities far, far outweigh the differences.

 

[angell1]

The Carmelite monastery should have a listing of the Third Order chapters in your area with the name of the President. Also, your diocese should have contact persons for the various third orders in its jurisdiction.

God bless you as you discern the path Our Lord is calling you to follow.

yes, there is contact information listed. I mean I feel called to it but I haven’t exactly discussed it with anyone official yet.

that and it seems that many priests are simply not very familiar with third orders at all, I am wondering it would be too bold for me to just contact someone from the order directly.

I mean I am just in the exploration stage, I really haveno idea at this point if this is my calling or which order it will be. I basically just want ot check things out and get a feel for it, which I’m guessing is what everyone starts out doing anyways

 

[Sirach2]

yes, there is contact information listed. I mean I feel called to it but I haven’t exactly discussed it with anyone official yet.

that and it seems that many priests are simply not very familiar with third orders at all, I am wondering it would be too bold for me to just contact someone from the order directly.

There’s about a 6-month period where inquirers may attend regular monthly community meetings to observe, whilst praying it through. No, it is not too bold. They would gladly give you info and invite you to “come and see!”

 

[angell1]

There’s about a 6-month period where inquirers may attend regular monthly community meetings to observe, whilst praying it through. No, it is not too bold. They would gladly give you info and invite you to “come and see!”

alright, good to know.

sorry one more question, do they generally prefer you to employed before proceeding?

 

[Sirach2]

alright, good to know.

sorry one more question, do they generally prefer you to employed before proceeding?

Employment is not an issue or requirement whatsoever. You need only to have a prompting from God and a desire to check it out. The 6 months precedes formal clothing with the scapular, if you decide to join, and you then become a novice. After a period of 6 months or so, depending on the rules of the Chapter, you may make your first promise.

During the clothing is when you choose your religious name according to the attraction of grace upon your heart. Mine is Mary Carole of the Blessed Sacrament, since I do so love the Eucharist.

 

[carnes88]

angell1;14100955:

I feel a strong desire to join a third order as a wingle person.

in practical terms, what is the difference between OCD and OCaRM. I can’t really seem to distinguish them besides the fact tha tone was reformed.

OCD means “DIS-calced” or without shoes. They wear sandals in the second order. The OCarms are “calced.” They wear shoes. Neither one would make any difference to a lay person, but the rules of the secular orders may be slightly different in their focus. Not being an OCarm member, I do not know what their rule is.

The promise is one of poverty of spirit

, in other words, we try to avoid attachments that would impede our vocation. We may have possessions, but the heart is the seat of inordinate or excessive attachments, whether of goods or friendships that God does not ordain.

The second order is for religious … the third order is for non-religious, whether married or single. God is the one who inspires the person with an attraction to the spirit of the order, whichever one speaks more strongly to your heart.

The OCD rule requires us to pray the Divine Office morning and evening, spend a half hour in mental prayer daily, and attend daily Mass as far as possible. Of course, it is expected that one will have a strong devotion to Mary, and an attraction to the writings and spirit of the saints of Carmel.

However I wouldn’t never, especially a Franciscan, expect to see a professed member of an order to drive around in a Lexus or Mercedes, it would go against our rules.

 

[carnes88]

How do “oblates” (as of St. Benedict specifically) differ from third orders, or do they? And does anyone have any information on the Benedictine spirituality for lay people?

Oblates have no canonical status, they are not an order.

 

[carnes88]

Just for the sake of clarity, this doesn’t bind in the sense of the canonical obligation that require Clergy and Religious to pray the Office.

Never knew that, it’s a requirement for secular franciscans to pray lauds and vespers, however we are an Order of Pontifical right now other third order is, I don’t know if they might have something to do with it. I thought it was a requirement for all religious orders.