"Lord, are there few who will be saved?"

[captaincoog]

Reading some Fathers and Doctors of the Church, it would seem that salvation is only going to be attained by a scarce few, and the overwhelming majority of souls are going to be eternally damned. I have read that, St Augustine I think, said something to the extent that if we knew how small the number of the elect actually was, then we would die of terror on the spot.

I only have a few minutes to post right now, but I can come back and post links to various writings of the Fathers and Doctors if anyone wants to see them, or they can Google the subject and check it out for themselves.

In Noah’s day, 8 people were saved in the whole earth, and the rest perished.

I believe the majority of the Israelites perished in the desert in Moses’ day, correct me if I am wrong.

Our Lord warned against taking the wide road that many travel upon, because it leads to destruction, and to strive, struggle, agonize etc. to enter through the narrow road that leads to life, because only a few find it.

Many are called, few are chosen. Is this “calling” a calling to the Catholic Church, and even out of this “many” only a few will be worthy of Heaven, even with a cleansing in Purgatory?

St Peter says that the just/righteous are only barely saved.

Is it possible that most, if not all, of the members of this very forum will be cast into hell?

A glance through the early church opinion would say, yes, most definately so.

Does the Church have an official teaching on this issue?

As I said I only have a few quick minutes to post now, but will return later to provide more reference detail if need be.

Thanks, I look forward to another’s understanding of this.

 

[tdandh26]

I think you are placing the emphasis in the wrong place. What I mean is that you are focusing on the concept of few in relation to what few means to you. If you take the whole of humanity from beginning to end the term few does not signify a tiny amount but it emphasises that most people will choose other things rather than God.
I think that most people on this forum do truely seek God and therefore they are on the right track. Jesus gave us the formula for salvation, Now we just have to choose to follow it, all the way through our lives. Its not a magical formula but a way of life, a way that I might add that brings more joy and happiness than anything this world can offer. If it is lived in truth. Seek Him with a humble heart and a sincere desire and you will find Him. Then you must persevere for you will be attacked because Satan is real and he will come after you, but if you have faith and trust you will defeat him utterly.

 

[mcs7474]

I have read these writing on hell and how many will truly be saved. I remember one night after reading these things that I went to sleep in terror. You know the feeling you have after you awake from a nightmare, where you are in complete terror, but then you relize that it was just a dream? Ya I went to sleep and awoke in that state, just thinking about that stuff. I walked around all day in shame of myself, and I feared for those around me that would perish someday in hell with me. I think the best responses from people regarding this subject is “the church doesnt declare anyone to be in hell” or something along that lines.

But, in my opinion ya most people are probably going to hell, I might be one of them, I know I deserve it. I just hope we will all be shown an undeservingly vast amount of mercy when our times come.

 

[shirleytowers]

I know God answers my prayers. Wouldn’t that mean I am okay? How could anyone tell if they were going to heaven? My overall impression is that if you love and acknowledge Him, have a prayer relationship with Him, love and serve your fellow man, and obey His rules (the church’s dictates), you will be in the “in crowd.” No??

And on the other hand, take the two thieves crucified with Christ. One repented and believed and was saved. The other not. Don’t they represent humanity?

Take Cain and Abel, the first sons of Adam and Eve, representative of the first humans with original sin. I am sure Abel made it to heaven. That is 50-50 odds.

I think these are also indicative…I hope!

 

[LilyM]

I think you are placing the emphasis in the wrong place. What I mean is that you are focusing on the concept of few in relation to what few means to you. If you take the whole of humanity from beginning to end the term few does not signify a tiny amount but it emphasises that most people will choose other things rather than God.
I think that most people on this forum do truely seek God and therefore they are on the right track. Jesus gave us the formula for salvation, Now we just have to choose to follow it, all the way through our lives. Its not a magical formula but a way of life, a way that I might add that brings more joy and happiness than anything this world can offer. If it is lived in truth. Seek Him with a humble heart and a sincere desire and you will find Him. Then you must persevere for you will be attacked because Satan is real and he will come after you, but if you have faith and trust you will defeat him utterly.

Amen! It’s not about the numbers!

Remember Jesus, among other things, said ‘my yoke is easy and my burden is light’ and ‘come to me those who labour and are burdened and I will refresh you’. And for those whose focus is right and whose hearts are in the right place it really can be easy and refreshing - as long as we remember who is really in charge, and who to turn to when we need help.

The idea is to keep our focus on living as best we can in order to glorify God from whom salvation and every other good thing comes. Not like we can do anything else, right? Whether many or few are saved?

The main thing is to remember that we are saved by grace first and foremost, and don’t worry so much about doing good in order to ‘earn’ a place in heaven - no-one who gets there does earn it! Simply ask for God’s grace and guidance and the strength to follow where he leads and take up your cross afresh each day.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I . . .

Take Cain and Abel, the first sons of Adam and Eve, representative of the first humans with original sin. I am sure Abel made it to heaven. That is 50-50 odds.

. . .!

Seth did also. That makes it 2:1.

 

[jonk]

Reading the Diary of St. Faustina really enlightened me on how much our Lord Jesus Christ wants us to be saved.

While many of us are prideful and will reject His gift of mercy, He will never turn away a contrite and humble soul. We must pray for the grace to be just that in the moment of our deaths, and we must pray for all people, that as many of them as possible may be saved through our Lord, who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

 

[Timmy_Z]

I know God answers my prayers. Wouldn’t that mean I am okay? How could anyone tell if they were going to heaven? My overall impression is that if you love and acknowledge Him, have a prayer relationship with Him, love and serve your fellow man, and obey His rules (the church’s dictates), you will be in the “in crowd.” No??

That seems to be the problem of works based salvation: fear of being good enough. I don’t believe I could handle the fear and uncertainty of being RCC. Luckily Jesus clearly says that those who believe in Him are saved. I will take His word for it and thank Him when I see Him.

To the original topic: of course only a few are saved. There are 6 billion people today, only about a third claim to be Christian, of those how many have true faith. It is sad so many reject Christ and salvation.

God Bless,
Tim

 

[jonk]

Tim, we do not believe in works based salvation.

We are saved by grace through faith and not of works (Eph 2:4). But faith without works is dead (James 2:20). We do not believe in once saved always saved, however. We can lose our salvation, either through losing faith, or being unrepentant (Luke 13:3), so we must “be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” (1 Pet 5:8)

God bless

 

[Timmy_Z]

Jonk,

You almost summed up salvation like an excellent weslyan/arminian evangelical

Read back through the thread and specifically the quote I replied to. To me, it sounds very much like a fear of being good enough.

Define works based salvation. I define it as trying to be good enough or earning salvation.

God Bless,
Tim

 

[jonk]

Tim,

Would you believe that wasn’t a C&P job? I had to find the Bible reference for each of those propositions (again). Anyway, our beliefs on salvation are neither arminian nor calvinist, and are not entirely in sync with many Protestant views, though they are compatible with, notably, certain Lutheran models. We definitely do believe in predestination, however.

And regarding your quote, well, as far as I know, it was phrased as a question and not as a statement of Catholic belief.

I don’t think we do a good enough job of learning and expressing our beliefs, though, but the various Protestant positions are not all that distant to the actual Catholic one. We are saved by grace.

Define works based salvation. I define it as trying to be good enough or earning salvation.

We cannot earn salvation. We can do nothing to deserve it and we cannot buy our way into heaven. In my observation, people who believe in works-based salvation, if they’re prideful, tend to think that God owes them salvation, and if they’re humble, tend to be extremely fearful for their salvation.

Dang, I’m outta time. Anyway, long story short, our salvation is contingent on repentance, which itself is a grace. So it is reasonably secure provided we are always repentant. “Reasonably” secure because we cannot foretell the future. I guess, though I don’t speak with certainty or authority, works may help prevent our faith dying and predispose our souls to repentance. The fear is that we will fall away prior to and/or be unrepentant on death, and that’s why many people pray for a “happy death” or the grace of final perseverance for themselves and for others.

Take care and God bless

 

[Lazerlike42]

Jonk,

You almost summed up salvation like an excellent weslyan/arminian evangelical

Read back through the thread and specifically the quote I replied to. To me, it sounds very much like a fear of being good enough.

Define works based salvation. I define it as trying to be good enough or earning salvation.

God Bless,
Tim

If you really want to understand Catholic theology on salvation, please see soladeiverbum.com/gracealone.shtml . It’ll take you a few minutes to read, but it goes over official Catholic documents as well as the Scriptures to explain exactly what the Church teaches and why.

God be with you,

 

[Church_Militant]

I define it as trying to be good enough or earning salvation.

God Bless,
Tim

Too bad that is not the Catholic definition.

 

[jonnyws]

Jonk,

Define works based salvation. I define it as trying to be good enough or earning salvation.

If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification).

“Whoever says, ‘I know him’ without keeping his commandments is a liar.” (1 John 2:4)

“But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then!” (James 2:18)

 

[Lazerlike42]

If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification).

“Whoever says, ‘I know him’ without keeping his commandments is a liar.” (1 John 2:4)

“But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then!” (James 2:18)

Just to clarify, in case of any possible misunderstanding, this statement from Trent doesn’t mean that works save a person. It means that when a person who is already justifies performs good works, the works will increase his justification. Protestants tend to have a view that you are either justified or you’re not, whereas Catholics understand that justification is not merely an ‘either/or’ state, but a whole spectrum.

The very lowest on this spectrum, where a person is at when he is first justified by God, is completely gratuitous without any actions on the part of the individual. Once in that state, a person has the Holy Spirit dwelling within him, and so any works of his are also works of God, in a certain sense. These works performed by a justified person can increase his justification, moving him up the spectrum, as it were. However, even these works are still acts of Grace, because they are only meaningful thanks to the justification that the person posesses that was given by God with no prior actions on the individual’s part - and because each good act is only possible because God provides individual Graces - purely of His own free gift - enabling the justified person to do each and every particular good act that he does.

What does it mean to increase in justification? Something similar to the Protestant notion of increasing in Heavenly rewards. It also means to be more and more sanctified.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Captian Coog,

Here is an observation.

Jesus clearly states in Mathew 25 that those who care for the poor will go to heaven and those who do not care for the poor He will cast into hell. God set a limit to what He expects as a proper donation to Him, from those who love Him, at ten percent of your income. Donating beyond ten percent of your income is not required of you, even if the poor are still dying due to lack of charity from other Catholics not paying their tithe. Donating beyond ten percent is welcomed, of course, but not demanded by God. As with Christ’s story of the widow donating only a few pennies, but it was all that she had, less is required from those who are poor.

Paying a tithe on your full income, after basic nessessities are covered, does not seem that difficult of a task that Jesus and the Father have requested of us, to show our love for God and love for fellow man. Yet, churches can hardly keep the doors open. 1.1 billion Catholics donate emensly less to love Jesus through caring for the poor than 350 million American taxpayers, forced by the IRS, spend on domestic and foreign aid to the poor. I have heard that wealthy Catholics, on average, pay less than one half of one percent to show their love/lack of, for Jesus to keep the poor from dying when God commands ten percent. I have heard that a rule of thumb is 20 percent of Catholics do 80 percent of the donating (in America).

The point I am making is that when one thinks of only a small percentage of people making it to heaven, it is not because it is a great hardship to make it to heaven, rather it is because a great number of Christians are not trying very hard to get there. I think that if we studied Christian donation statistics, on how much wealth Christians have verses how much wealth they are willing to part with, far less than ten percent of their income, to keep the poor from dying, this would become painfully clear.

Do not get shook. Just keep on keeping on doing what Jesus commands you to do with all your strength and with all your heart. It does not take a superhero to get to heaven. It does take your love for God with all your heart.

NAB MAT 25:31

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[Linkowski]

What does it mean to increase in justification? Something similar to the Protestant notion of increasing in Heavenly rewards. It also means to be more and more sanctified.

Justification is a declaration by nature and is when a person passes from death to life, becomes a Child of God, receives the Holy Spirit, receives forgiveness of sins, obtains eternal life, becomes dead to the law…etc.

It is a legal declaration - sanctification takes over from there. You cannot grow in a legal declaration…it is a one time deal…You re either just or unjust…righteous or unrighteous…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

 

[Timmy_Z]

I think there is a growing phenomenon within the RCC where officially it believes one thing, but really catholics believe something else.

I get chastised about how the RCC officially does not believe works salvation then a few posts later I read:

it is not because it is a great hardship to make it to heaven, rather it is because a great number of Christians are not trying very hard to get there.

Or maybe we all mean something different by “works salvation” and are talking past eachother.

God Bless,

Tim

 

[Timmy_Z]

Laserlike42,

Thank you for the link. I have saved the site as a favorite and am enjoying it.

-Tim

 

[Lazerlike42]

Justification is a declaration by nature and is when a person passes from death to life, becomes a Child of God, receives the Holy Spirit, receives forgiveness of sins, obtains eternal life, becomes dead to the law…etc.

It is a legal declaration - sanctification takes over from there. You cannot grow in a legal declaration…it is a one time deal…You re either just or unjust…righteous or unrighteous…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

The New Testament, including St. Paul, desmonstrate that justification is not merely a binary, either/or declaration.

The most clear text is James 2:24, “man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.” The Catholic interpretation of this verse, as given in the Council of Trent, is that good works done with Grace are able to increase man’s justification before God. What is clear about this verse is that good works dojustify; there is no denying that. Now, if good works do justify, and justification is either/or, then we see that faith - and even Grace - are not needed. However, if justification is something that can increase, then James 2:24 does not deny that men are justified by Grace.

Abraham is yet another example of this. Hebrews 11:8 indicates that he was justified in Genesis 12. However, St. Paul says that he was justified in Genesis 15. St. James, on the other hand, declares that he was justified in Genesis 22. Thus, we see that Abraham, while first justified in Genesis 12, continued to increase in justification by both his faith (Genesis 15) and works (Genesis 22), just as St. James 2:24 teaches that faith and works each can increase a man’s justification.

Remember that as God spoke through Isaiah, “so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” (55:11). When God declares a person righteous, that person really becomes righteous - not merely legally so, but in actuallity. Justification is both a declaration and a real inner change.

Otherwise, it would be meaningless for the writer to the Hebrews to instruct that we “strive for the holiness without which nobody shall see the Lord” (12:14), for all one needs to see Him is justification. If we must strive for it and yet it is either/or, then we are saved not by Grace, but by works. If, on the other hand, justification increases, then Hebrews does not deny that man is justified by Grace.