"Lord, are there few who will be saved?"

[Lazerlike42]

I think there is a growing phenomenon within the RCC where officially it believes one thing, but really catholics believe something else.

One of the reasons I wrote that particular article I linked you to is because very many Catholics really don’t know what their Church actually teaches on the topic of justification. I believe there is one important reason for this.

Up until the Reformation, everything in Catholic teaching and preaching was about living virtuously. Catholics were taught to exercise the virtues and to Love. Then the Reformation occured and the Church was thrust into a great debate. Now, in any debate, the terms end up being defined by the first party to speak - in this case it was Luther. Thus, from that time forward, Catholics were always arguing against the position of “faith alone rather than faith and works,” when “faith and works” was never the position of the Church in the first place - it was faith and love, as the Council of Trent makes very clear.

That is why many Catholics are almost scandalized to find the Catechism not speaking about works nearly as much as they think it ought to. They have learned apologetics from the standpoint that we must defend faith and works - a way of thinking that developed particularly because the Church’s strongest Scriptural support, in James 2:24, happens to mention works. Thus, we have a situation where most Catholics understand that works are necesary, but do not understand for what exactly.

I don’t mean this to criticize any particular person, by the way. I am not even considering what people have said in this thread - I am speaking very generally here.

I get chastised about how the RCC officially does not believe works salvation then a few posts later I read:

it is not because it is a great hardship to make it to heaven, rather it is because a great number of Christians are not trying very hard to get there.

Or maybe we all mean something different by “works salvation” and are talking past eachother.

God Bless,

Tim

This statement, like all of them, must be taken in the greater context of 1) the discussion at hand and 2) actual Church teaching. Obviously, it does require effort to make it to Heaven. Jesus said this many times (He also said His yoke was easy, indicating that He would provide the Grace [and actually more accurately He was referring to a particularly Jewish Old Testament phrase that meant something else]).

What was meant here is not that we have to accomplish so many works to get to Heaven, as if Jesus has a quota, but that we do have to “strive for the Holiness without which nobody will see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:4). This is because a person of faith making no progress is making backwards progress. A person who merely goes to Mass on Sundays and does nothing else in between is rather likely to not care much about Christ and thus to commit mortal sins or even, as a Protestant might say it, to have a lifeless faith rather than a living faith. It takes effort to grow close enough to Christ that we won’t fall for every temptation that comes along in this age - to truly Love God and to avoid mortal sin. That is what is meant here.

 

[Steven_Merten]

The point I am making is that when one thinks of only a small percentage of people making it to heaven, it is not because it is a great hardship to make it to heaven, rather it is because a great number of Christians are not trying very hard to get there.

I think there is a growing phenomenon within the RCC where officially it believes one thing, but really catholics believe something else.

I get chastised about how the RCC officially does not believe works salvation then a few posts later I read:

Or maybe we all mean something different by “works salvation” and are talking past eachother.

God Bless,

Tim

Hello Tim,

Do you agree that many times Jesus teaches us to obey God and do works of charity if we wish to go to heaven (through Him)?

There are many Christians in the world who are working hard to convince people that Jesus’ teachings, to obey God if we wish to enter into life, is a lie. Their work is is, no doubt, emensly adding to the number of people who disregard and disobey Jesus call for charity to the poor and obedience to God’s commandments if we wish to enter into life. Thus, their work is causing a great deal of eternal death carnage.

Jesus teaches that we will be judged into heaven (through Him) or hell, based on our conduct. Jesus tells us to obey the commandments if we wish to enter into life. 76.6% of those polled at CAF, at the following link, believe Jesus to be telling the truth. Please follow the link and poll and post as to what you think. Will Jesus judge people into heaven (through Him) or Hell based on conduct?

NAB MAT 19:16 “Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"NAB JOH 5:27**“The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.**” NAB ROM 2:6 (St. Paul is speaking). . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

NAB MAT 7:12****Enter through the narrow gate. The gate that leads to damnation is wide, the road is clear, and many choose to travel it. But how narrow is the gate that leads to life, how rough the road, and how few there are who find it!"
“Be on your guard against false prophets, who come to you in sheeps’ clothing but underneath are wolves on the prowl. You will know them by their deeds. Do you ever pick grapes from thronbushes, or figs from prickly plants? Never! Any sound tree bears good fruit, while a decayed tree bears bad fruit. A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit any more than a decayed tree can bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. You can tell a tree by its fruit. None of those who cry out, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? Have we not exorcised demons by its power? Did we not do many miracles in your name as well?” They I will declare to them solemnly, “I never knew you. Out of my sight, you evildoers!”

 

[Nita]

I think there is a growing phenomenon within the RCC where officially it believes one thing, but really catholics believe something else.

I get chastised about how the RCC officially does not believe works salvation then a few posts later I read:

Or maybe we all mean something different by “works salvation” and are talking past eachother.

God Bless,

Tim

Hi Tim,

Something I’ve wondered about - and hopefully you can tell me - is what Protestants consider “works”? Besides charitable acts, is obedience to God’s commandments included in “works”?

Thanks in advance,
Nita

 

[dcdurel]

when “faith and works” was never the position of the Church in the first place - it was faith and love, as the Council of Trent makes very clear.

But we love God by obedience, which is “works”.
The Council of Trent also makes it clear that obedience (good works) are nescessary
All the different points of salvation can get complicated, and what is more complicated is that when the Church and the bible use the word salvation, they primarly mean to be freed from the inclination to sin, by grace. Jesus came to set the captives free, and by this He meant to set us free from the slavery of sin, by taking away the compulsion to sin, by means of His grace, which we receive through the sacraments, especially the Eucharist. And then if we continue, by this grace, to stay away from sin, then we are reconciled with God, and if we continue all our lives to live this way, when we die we will go to heaven. Of course this grace also removes original sin which reconciles us and makes it possible to enter heaven, makes us children of God, etc.

We received this grace through faith, which means believing all He has revealed. Everything Jesus has revealed is contained in the Gospel which He entrusted to His apostles, who handed this Gospel, which is the Catholic faith, down to their successors, the bishops of the Church.
Thus, if we believe in Jesus, we will believe the Gospel His Church teaches, be baptized, receive this grace and thus be freed from the inclination to sin, depending on how much we seek this grace through prayer and the sacraments.
Since disobedience to the commandments of God is sin, and since serious or mortal sin kills this grace in our soul, then we can lose this grace by not obeying God, by NOT doing good works. We gain it back through repentance in confession.
When we obey God (do good works) we also receive more grace, which justifies us, thus also saves us. That is why in James he says that we ARE justified by works and not by faith alone.
When some Protestants believe the bible condemns justification by works, it is because they don’t understand what St. Paul was referring to.
St. Paul also says we are justified by obedience in Romans chapter 2.
When Paul says we are saved by faith and not by “works of the law” he is referring to works of the law of Moses, such as circumcision. Since NO Christian is under the law of Moses, then when some Jewish christians say everyone had to be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses, it was NOT out of obedience to God. Jesus NEVER required any Christian to be cirumcised and to follow the works of the law of Moses, meaning the ceremonial aspects of the law of Moses. Thus by “works”, St. Paul was referring to those acts of the Law of Moses which MEN said were necessary, not which God said were necessary. Thus, these Jewish christians were saying that faith and obedience were NOT enough, men also had to do something entirely on their own, which was practice the ceremonial works of the law of Moses, such as circumcision, sabbath worship, etc. This is what St. Paul condemned. He condemned adding to the teachings of salvation by grace through faith and obedience, the new teaching that of following man’s teaching which was works of the law of Moses, (circumcision, sabbath observence, Jewish feast days, etc. ) were also necessary, thus they were trying to earn their salvation, do something entirely on their own.

 

[dcdurel]

Luther, poor soul, was totally confused and thought that when Paul condemed “works” he was condemning the necessity of obedience (good works) to enter heaven. Not so. St. Paul made it clear that good works, or obedience are absolutely necessary. See Romans chap 2. Paul condemned faith in the man made teaching that “works of the law” of Moses were necessary.

Thus, through faith and obedience we receive grace. This grace saves us, meaning frees us from the inclination to sin in this life and this salvation continues into the next life as union with God in heaven.
We can’t earn heaven. Jesus did that. But, Jesus does give us requirments to be rewarded with heaven, and that is faith and obedience, “works”. If we sin mortally, thus lose our salvation, we can repent in confession and regain the salvation we lost by sin. If we stay unrepentant, in rebellion against God, then we will end up in hell, because in heaven there can be no sin.

Thus, heaven is a reward, not something we earn. Jesus alone earned heaven. Jesus promised us this reward, if we believe and obey the Gospel He handed down to His Church.

There are many, many verses that say heaven is a reward for those who obey God and keep His commandments.

Some protestants, like Billy Graham denied that heaven is a reward, despite the clear bible verses which say over and over that heaven is a reward.
He reasoned that since Jesus said we must be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. Then since no one is perfect, no one can enter heaven. He convenienlty forgot to say that we can repent if we sin, and thus be perfect when we enter heaven. And of course, in purgatory we are purifed of those venial sins that we did not repent of.
After all, at the judgment, Jesus clearly said that those who do evil will enter hell and those who do good will go to heaven, and they certainly were not perfect. Thus, we don’t have to be perfect, but we do have to be repentant.

Summary. We are saved by grace (which justifies us), which we receive through faith, first at baptism, then through the other sacraments, especially the Eucharist. When we obey God we receive more of this grace, thus we are justified even more. That is why James says we ARE JUSTIFIED BY WORKS.
James 2:24
Ye see then how that** by works a man is justified,** and not by faith only. This is the King James Version.

This is what the Church teaches. This is what the Bible teaches. This is what God teaches.

We cannot be justifed by adding man-made beliefs to what God teaches, such as requiring following the Mosaic ceremonial “works of the law” such as circumcision. This is what St. Paul condemnes. This alone is what he means when he tells these Jewish Christians who wanted to add circumcision, that we are saved by faith and not by works. St. Paul was NOT referring to good works, (obdience)
He makes it clearn that there is a difference between the two.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Thus, keeping the commandments are necessary (good works), circumcision is not necessary (works of the law, of Moses)

 

[Lazerlike42]

dcdurel,

I agree with most of what you wrote. I say that the question is not about faith and works so much as faith and love because the terminology of faith and works causes people to understand the Church’s position to be the heretical idea that we must do a certain number of good works, or that good works actually justify us in the first place.

Note that when James talks about works, he doesn’t say we are saved by works, but that we are justified by them. As you correctly pointed out, this refers to the increase in justification that a person gains after having received initial justification, which is entirely by Grace.

There are works that a person must do in order to remain justified - works of obedience. The point I was making was only to clear up the misunderstanding many Catholics have that doing works in the first place gets us right with God, whereas as you correctly pointed out it is only by Grace that this happens.

My one area I would in any way disagree with what you said is in pertinence to St. Paul’s usage of the term works. While I do believe that in many cases, in fact the vast majority of them, St. Paul is referring to the works of the Mosaic Law, I also agree in part with those who suggest that St, Paul intends to condemn salvation by any works. There are some passages in his writings where he makes it clear he is not talking about works of the Mosaic law, but any works. I certainly believe that the approach to St. Paul that understands him to be referring to works of the Mosaic Law is correct. However, I think that there is more to his theology of justification than that.

In fact, it is by Grace through faith that we are saved, as St. Paul teaches in Ephesians. However, we see that when St. Paul speaks of faith, he means a faith “working through” or “given energy by” Love. Now Love is something that always works. One with Love will not be idle. This is why in all cases, not just when referring to the Mosaic Law, St. Paul rejects works as having a role in salvation. He is speaking about initial salvation, of course - the first moment of justification.To him, it is the Love that God “pours into our hearts”(Rom 5:5) that initially justifies us, and this Love necessarily does work, but the works do not themselves do the justifying - not initially. They do of course justify in the sense of increasing justification. However, where he places the emphasis is on the Love, which he considers a part of faith. This is what he means in Ephesians 2: we are saved (initally justified) by Grace through faith - and in his thinking faith includes Love. The works have no place in this - they come after and continue to justify us, but do not justify us at first.

If you want a rather in depth look at what I am trying to say, please see www.soladeiverbum.com/gracealone.shtml. There, I discuss the matter Biblically and with extensive reference to the council of Trent.

 

[DaveBj]

This thread has drifted from the OP’s question about whether there will be few or many who are saved to the usual faith-vs-works debate (on which I take the CCC’s stance, q.v.)

Back to the OP’s question: The title of this thread is actually a question posed to Jesus from the crowd (Luke 13:23). In answer He stressed the importance if striving to enter the narrow gate. The question could also be considered to be a paraphrase of the question posed by the disciples (pre-Resurrection, when they still didn’t understand very much) in response to Jesus’ statement that it is almost impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom. Read the whole pericope in Matt. 19:23-30 and the parallel sections in the other Synoptics Gospels.

In contrast, consider Rev. 7:9-10:

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (NKJV)

DaveBj

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello all,

Are we in agreement that obedience to God’s commandments and caring for the poor is love for God and love for neighbor? Do we agree that it is our love for God, through obeying God and caring for the poor, that we will be judged on and separated out to go to heaven, through Jesus, or hell?

In Matthew 24:11, Jesus tells us that many false prophets will rise up to cause the love (obedience and care for the poor) of most to grow cold. Is Jesus not talking about the vast amount of Christians in our day who lead people away from Christ’s teachings to obey God and care for the poor, out of love for God and love for neighbor, if we wish to enter into life?

NAB MAT 24:11

**False prophets will rise in great numbers to mislead many. Because of the increase in evil, the love of most will grow cold. The man who holds out to the end, however, is the one who will see salvation.**NIV 1JO 5:3
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.NIV JOH 14:15
**“If you love me, you will obey what I command.”**NAB DEU 11:1
“Love the LORD, your God, therefore, and always heed his charge: his statutes, decrees and commandments.” NAB ROM 13:10
**Love never wrongs the neighbor, hence love is the fulfillment of the law.**NIV JOH 14:23
Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” **NAB 2JO 1:5 **
But now, my Lady, I would make this request of you (not as if I were writing you some new commandment; rather, it is a commandment we have had from the start): let us love one another. This love involves our walking according to the commandments, and as you have heard from the beginning, the commandment is the way in which you should walk.
NAB EXO 20:5

“. . . you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.”
NAB MAT 25:31

’Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, **‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’**NAB JOH 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God.

 

[jonk]

If you want a rather in depth look at what I am trying to say, please see www.soladeiverbum.com/gracealone.shtml. There, I discuss the matter Biblically and with extensive reference to the council of Trent.

You wrote that? I read it the first time you linked it and I thought it was excellent. Well done. It really clarified the issue for me.

 

[tvdxer]

Reading some Fathers and Doctors of the Church, it would seem that salvation is only going to be attained by a scarce few, and the overwhelming majority of souls are going to be eternally damned. I have read that, St Augustine I think, said something to the extent that if we knew how small the number of the elect actually was, then we would die of terror on the spot.

I only have a few minutes to post right now, but I can come back and post links to various writings of the Fathers and Doctors if anyone wants to see them, or they can Google the subject and check it out for themselves.

In Noah’s day, 8 people were saved in the whole earth, and the rest perished.

I believe the majority of the Israelites perished in the desert in Moses’ day, correct me if I am wrong.

Our Lord warned against taking the wide road that many travel upon, because it leads to destruction, and to strive, struggle, agonize etc. to enter through the narrow road that leads to life, because only a few find it.

Many are called, few are chosen. Is this “calling” a calling to the Catholic Church, and even out of this “many” only a few will be worthy of Heaven, even with a cleansing in Purgatory?

St Peter says that the just/righteous are only barely saved.

Is it possible that most, if not all, of the members of this very forum will be cast into hell?

A glance through the early church opinion would say, yes, most definately so.

Does the Church have an official teaching on this issue?

As I said I only have a few quick minutes to post now, but will return later to provide more reference detail if need be.

Thanks, I look forward to another’s understanding of this.

The church does not claim to know whether few or many will be saved.

The pessimistic view of the fathers is not binding doctrine; it may have its basis in an erroneous interpretation of scripture, as Fr. Most claims in his article on this matter.

At least some more recent (19th / 20th c.) theologians have come to the opposite conclusion, believing that the number of those saved will exceed the number of those damned, taking in mind God’s will for men to be saved and the apparent necessity for God’s kingdom to triumph over that of Satan’s. Such views can be found in orthodox texts like Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott or even the Catholic Encyclopedia, in the article on Predestination:

Will the majority of the human race be saved or will they be damned? Will one-half be damned the other half saved? In this question the opinion of the rigorists is opposed to the milder view of the optimists. Pointing to several texts of the Bible (Matthew 7:14; 22:14) and to sayings of great spiritual doctors, the rigorists defend as probable the thesis that not only most Christians but also most Catholics are doomed to eternal damnation. Almost repulsive in its tone is Massillon’s sermon on the small number of the elect. Yet even St. Thomas (loc. cit., a. 7) asserted: “Pauciores sunt qui salvantur” (only the smaller number of men are saved). And a few years ago, when the Jesuit P. Castelein (“Le rigorisme, le nombre des élus et la doctrine du salut”, 2nd ed., Brussels, 1899) impugned this theory with weighty arguments, he was sharply opposed by the Redemptorist P. Godts (“De paucitate salvandorum quid docuerunt sancti”, 3rd ed., Brussels, 1899). That the number of the elect cannot be so very small is evident from the Apocalypse (vii, 9). When one hears the rigorists, one is tempted to repeat Dieringer’s bitter remark: “Can it be that the Church actually exists in order to people hell?” The truth is that neither the one nor the other can be proved from Scripture or Tradition (cf. Heinrich-Gutberlet, “Dogmat. Theologie”, Mainz, 1897, VIII, 363 sq.). But supplementing these two sources by arguments drawn from reason we may safely defend as probable the opinion that the majority of Christians, especially of Catholics, will be saved. If we add to this relative number the overwhelming majority of non-Christians (Jews, Mahommedans, heathens), then Gener (“Theol. dogmat. scholast.”, Rome, 1767, II, 242 sq.) is probably right when he assumes the salvation of half of the human race, lest “it should be said to the shame and offence of the Divine majesty and clemency that the [future] Kingdom of Satan is larger than the Kingdom of Christ” (cf. W. Schneider, “Das andere Leben”, 9th ed., Paderborn, 1908, 476 sq.).

(Source: newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm )