Lord, liar, or lunatic?

[Herrobp]

I don’t remember who used that quote (“Lord, liar, or lunatic”), but I know that my priest has used it to challenge those who would question the divinity of Christ.

So my honest question to non-Christians is “which one of those words best describes Christ?” Because of the nature of His claims, He was either telling the truth, lying, or was insane (for no mere mortal can claim to be God without either lying or suffering from a crazed delusion).

The idea that Jesus has to be one of the above-mentioned descriptions is almost unquestionable, because few scholars deny the fact that Jesus made the claims (many deny that His claims are true, but few deny that he made them).

Therefore I ask non-Christians, which one was Jesus: Lord, liar, or lunatic?

 

[GKC]

I don’t remember who used that quote (“Lord, liar, or lunatic”), but I know that my priest has used it to challenge those who would question the divinity of Christ.

So my honest question to non-Christians is “which one of those words best describes Christ?” Because of the nature of His claims, He was either telling the truth, lying, or was insane (for no mere mortal can claim to be God without either lying or suffering from a crazed delusion).

The idea that Jesus has to be one of the above-mentioned descriptions is almost unquestionable, because few scholars deny the fact that Jesus made the claims (many deny that His claims are true, but few deny that he made them).

Therefore I ask non-Christians, which one was Jesus: Lord, liar, or lunatic?

That’s C. S. Lewis, from MERE CHRISTIANITY.

GKC

 

[paarsurrey]

I don’t remember who used that quote (“Lord, liar, or lunatic”), but I know that my priest has used it to challenge those who would question the divinity of Christ.
So my honest question to non-Christians is “which one of those words best describes Christ?” Because of the nature of His claims, He was either telling the truth, lying, or was insane (for no mere mortal can claim to be God without either lying or suffering from a crazed delusion).
The idea that Jesus has to be one of the above-mentioned descriptions is almost unquestionable, because few scholars deny the fact that Jesus made the claims (s not say anything like that.

Thanks

 

[Herrobp]

Herrobp;3375467:

I don’t remember who used that quote (“Lord, liar, or lunatic”), but I know that my priest has used it to challenge those who would question the divinity of Christ.
So my honest question to non-Christians is “which one of those words best describes Christ?” Because of the nature of His claims, He was either telling the truth, lying, or was insane (for no mere mortal can claim to be God without either lying or suffering from a crazed delusion).
The idea that Jesus has to be one of the above-mentioned descriptions is almost unquestionable, because few scholars deny the fact that Jesus made the claims (s not say anything like that.

Thanks

Paarssurrey,

I’m sorry, I believe that part of your response was deleted somehow. I suspect you stated that Jesus never made such claims. Is that correct?

Thanks.

 

[paarsurrey]

I don’t remember who used that quote (“Lord, liar, or lunatic”), but I know that my priest has used it to challenge those who would question the divinity of Christ.
So my honest question to non-Christians is “which one of those words best describes Christ?” Because of the nature of His claims, He was either telling the truth, lying, or was insane (for no mere mortal can claim to be God without either lying or suffering from a crazed delusion).
The idea that Jesus has to be one of the above-mentioned descriptions is almost unquestionable, because few scholars deny the fact that Jesus made the claims (many deny that His claims are true, but few deny that he made them).
Therefore I ask non-Christians, which one was Jesus: Lord, liar, or lunatic?

Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

I think there won’t be even a single Muslim in the world who would dare utter such strong words for Jesus even in supposition.

Jesus was a truthful person . He was a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH and his mother was also a respectful lady.

It is Catholics who use such words as they base their perception of Jesus on NTBible. Quran does not say anything like that.

Thanks

 

[Herrobp]

Hi
…It is Catholics who use such words as they base their perception of Jesus on NTBible. Quran does not say anything like that.

Thanks

Thank you for your clarification. While I do not claim to know what the Quran says, I do know that there are non-Christian sources that site a belief among Jesus’ contemporaries that He made claims to His divinity. Certainly first century Jews believed that He made such claims. That is born out in ancient Roman Records which record the reason why the Pharisees requested crucifixion for Jesus–because of His claims to divinity, which they considered blasphemous.

Remember also, that New Testament (NT) scripture was written decades after Jesus’ ascension. So the belief in Jesus’ divinity pre-dates NT scripture. The NT was not even defined as cannon until the Council of Rome in 382, so first and second century Christians would not have utilized NT scripture on which to base their beliefs that Jesus claimed divinity (I do not include third and fourth century Christians here, because even though the Church had not yet defined the Cannon of Scripture, NT scripture was becoming available at that time, so for some third and fourth century Christians, it may have formed the basis of their belief in Jesus’ divinity). The point is this: The fact that Jesus claimed divinity was accepted as common knowledge in the first century by Christians and non-Christians alike, before NT scripture was even written, much less disseminated (although obviously those claims were rejected by non-Christians).

 

[Aleii]

Therefore I ask non-Christians, which one was Jesus: Lord, liar, or lunatic?

These are not the only possibilities.

 

[Valke2]

I don’t remember who used that quote (“Lord, liar, or lunatic”), but I know that my priest has used it to challenge those who would question the divinity of Christ.

So my honest question to non-Christians is “which one of those words best describes Christ?” Because of the nature of His claims, He was either telling the truth, lying, or was insane (for no mere mortal can claim to be God without either lying or suffering from a crazed delusion).

The idea that Jesus has to be one of the above-mentioned descriptions is almost unquestionable, because few scholars deny the fact that Jesus made the claims (many deny that His claims are true, but few deny that he made them).

Therefore I ask non-Christians, which one was Jesus: Lord, liar, or lunatic?

Well, Lord is out. I don’t believe he was a lunatic because I don’t believe he ever claimed to be God. I don’t want to call him a liar. Since this question is addressed to those who don’t believe in Jesus, I’m not sure what kind of answer you are looking for. I thing the most charitable description I can use is that he was a person who believed he understood what God wanted for the Jews and possibly thought of himself as the Messiah.

 

[ralphinal]

Well, Lord is out. I don’t believe he was a lunatic because I don’t believe he ever claimed to be God. I don’t want to call him a liar. Since this question is addressed to those who don’t believe in Jesus, I’m not sure what kind of answer you are looking for. I thing the most charitable description I can use is that he was a person who believed he understood what God wanted for the Jews and possibly thought of himself as the Messiah.

Reformer perhaps? Reformer with delusions of granduer? Misguided reformer? Or, was there need for reform and it was not well received?

 

[bpbasilphx]

**Jesus was a truthful person . He was a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH and his mother was also a respectful lady.

It is Catholics who use such words as they base their perception of Jesus on NTBible. Quran does not say anything like that.**

I confess there is no God but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate and Mary is Theotokos.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Well, Lord is out. I don’t believe he was a lunatic because I don’t believe he ever claimed to be God. I don’t want to call him a liar. Since this question is addressed to those who don’t believe in Jesus, I’m not sure what kind of answer you are looking for. I thing the most charitable description I can use is that he was a person who believed he understood what God wanted for the Jews and possibly thought of himself as the Messiah.

Well, if Jesus believed Himself to be the Messiah, and He wasn’t, then He believed He was something He wasn’t, and that makes Him a lunatic, according to your reasoning.

 

[Valke2]

Well, if Jesus believed Himself to be the Messiah, and He wasn’t, then He believed He was something He wasn’t, and that makes Him a lunatic, according to your reasoning.

It makes him wrong by my reasoning. Not a lunatic. The Pope and my Rabbi both believe they represent a true religion. Neither of them are lunatics.

 

[Herrobp]

Well, Lord is out. I don’t believe he was a lunatic because I don’t believe he ever claimed to be God. I don’t want to call him a liar. Since this question is addressed to those who don’t believe in Jesus, I’m not sure what kind of answer you are looking for. I thing the most charitable description I can use is that he was a person who believed he understood what God wanted for the Jews and possibly thought of himself as the Messiah.

I appreciate your answer. However, I believe He did claim to be God, and at the bottom of this response I’ll include a link that has new testament scripture to support that view point. I know that non-Christians aren’t going to care much about New Testament claims, but Christ’s early followers would have cared. And I can’t imagine that eye-witnesses to Jesus’ teachings wouldn’t have been up-in-arms over scripture that attributes a divine nature to Jesus if that contradicted the teachings they witnessed.

When the gospels began to be disseminated, it was the latter half of the first century, when many of Christ’s contemporaries would still have been alive. If scripture constituted a dramatic shift from the original teachings, Christ’s followers would have been at war with one another, but they were incredibly unified and most of their writings supported the claims of the Gospels. So my question is if Jesus never taught His own divinity, why did His followers revere scripture that asserted He did?

I also can’t imagine that the Pharisees would have supported a death sentence for blasphemy if such claims were never made.

The following link references claims to Christ’s divinity that can be found in the New Testament (it then goes on to include writings from the early church fathers, but those aren’t particularly relevant to this discussion):

catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Christ.asp

 

[Herrobp]

When the gospels began to be disseminated, it was the latter half of the first century, when many of Christ’s contemporaries would still have been alive.

Oops, I meant to say that “When the gospels were ‘written’”. I do not know when they were disseminated. But it is likely that Christ’s followers were at least aware of them by the end of the first century, and knew of the claims that were being made in the gospels, even if a working (albeit unofficial) cannon wasn’t really available for another century.

 

[ryanoneil]

These are not the only possibilities.

Hi Aleii,

What other possibilities are you thinking of?

I could only think of the gospel writers putting words in Jesus’ mouth. (false message)

Personally, I believe the Bible is true.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ralphinal]

It makes him wrong by my reasoning. Not a lunatic. The Pope and my Rabbi both believe they represent a true religion. Neither of them are lunatics.

Valke, what about the options that I posted. Was he a reformer, a reformer with some delusions of granduer, or a little of both?

 

[Valke2]

Valke, what about the options that I posted. Was he a reformer, a reformer with some delusions of granduer, or a little of both?

I suppose reformer would be an apt lable. But asking people to follow him rather than the Torah is a bit more than reform.

 

[ryanoneil]

Then there is Jesus saying “Before Abraham was, I Am” (John 8:58), thus speaking the word no Jew dares to speak because it is God’s own private name, spoken by God himself to Moses at the burning bush.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[paarsurrey]

I suppose reformer would be an apt lable. But asking people to follow him rather than the Torah is a bit more than reform.

Hi

Quran says all ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH who came in the house of Israel were to follow Torah, the Word of God revealed on Moses ( not the present OT), similarly Jesus was to follow the CanonofMoses and so he did.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 5: Al-Ma’idah

[5:43] They are eager listeners to falsehood, devourers of things forbidden. If, then, they come to thee for judgement, judge between them or turn aside from them. And if thou turn aside from them, they cannot harm thee at all. And if thou judge, judge between them with justice. Surely Allah loves those who are just.
[5:44] And how will they make thee their judge when they have with them the Torah, wherein is Allah’s judgement? Yet in spite of that they turn their backs; and certainly they will not believe.**
[5:45] Surely, We sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of Allah, and because they were guardians over it. Therefore fear not men but fear ME; and barter not My signs for a paltry price. And whoso judges not by that which Allah has sent down, these it is who are the disbelievers.
[5:46] And therein We prescribed for them: Life for life, and eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and for other injuries equitable retaliation. And whoso waives the right thereto, it shall be an expiation for his own sins; and whoso judges not by what Allah has sent down, these it is who are wrongdoers.
[5:47] And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah;** and We gave him the Gospel which contained guidance and light, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and a guidance and an admonition for the God-fearing.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=5&verse=39

Jesus was a follower of Moses and what was revealed on Moses by GodAllahYHWH.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Then there is Jesus saying “Before Abraham was, I Am” (John 8:58), thus speaking the word no Jew dares to speak because it is God’s own private name, spoken by God himself to Moses at the burning bush.
Peace,
Ryan

Hi

I am is for everybody, you might be saying many times a day, I am here, so do I, it is not specific for Jesus, he was not even born then, not even his mother.

I love Jesus and Mary.

Thanks