Lord, liar, or lunatic?

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I don’t remember who used that quote (“Lord, liar, or lunatic”), but I know that my priest has used it to challenge those who would question the divinity of Christ.

So my honest question to non-Christians is “which one of those words best describes Christ?” Because of the nature of His claims, He was either telling the truth, lying, or was insane (for no mere mortal can claim to be God without either lying or suffering from a crazed delusion).

The idea that Jesus has to be one of the above-mentioned descriptions is almost unquestionable, because few scholars deny the fact that Jesus made the claims (many deny that His claims are true, but few deny that he made them).
I’m sorry, but you’re seriously misinformed here. The truth is almost exactly the opposite of your last sentence: I don’t know of any New Testament scholars (as opposed to atheist propagandists) who think that Jesus claimed to be divine but do not think the claim is true. Whether Jesus even claimed to be the Messiah, much less claimed to be divine, is a matter of serious question among scholars. In fact, practically no New Testament scholars think Jesus claimed to be divine in a direct and explicit manner. N. T. Wright, who is probably the staunchest defender of orthodox Christianity among major contemporary biblical scholars, thinks that Jesus claimed to be divine in an implicit way. But he has been taken to task for this by many other NT scholars who think he’s simply reading Christian doctrine into the text.

This is the fatal problem with the “liar, lunatic, Lord” argument. It only works in the context in which C. S. Lewis used it–people who want to see themselves as Christians and still have a basic respect for Christ and the Bible but want to duck the full implications of Christianity.

That being said, I think that Wright’s interpretation is defensible and that there are aspects of the “LLL” argument that remain valid in any context. For instance, one can point to the Gospel of Mark, which most scholars think is the first Gospel written, and one can show that the Jesus described there is a mysterious miracle-worker who makes some quite astounding claims for himself and is not just a “great moral teacher.” Lewis was on to something. But Mark never says that Jesus explicitly claimed divinity, and the majority of biblical scholars today would not automatically accept even Mark as entirely accurate historically.

Edwin
 
Then there is Jesus saying “Before Abraham was, I Am” (John 8:58), thus speaking the word no Jew dares to speak because it is God’s own private name, spoken by God himself to Moses at the burning bush.
But of course non-Christians have no particular reason to think that Jesus said this. Why should they automatically believe that Jesus said whatever the Gospel writers say He said? (Particularly in the case of John, which was certainly the last Gospel written and diverges in so many ways from the others.)

Edwin
 
Hi

I am is for everybody, you might be saying many times a day, I am here, so do I, it is not specific for Jesus, he was not even born then, not even his mother.

I love Jesus and Mary.

Thanks
Hi

I’m no scholar but I think the original greek does not say what you are saying.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
But of course non-Christians have no particular reason to think that Jesus said this. Why should they automatically believe that Jesus said whatever the Gospel writers say He said? (Particularly in the case of John, which was certainly the last Gospel written and diverges in so many ways from the others.)

Edwin
Why should a non-Christian believe anything the Gospel writers say then?

Wouldn’t they have to rely on Christian tradition then for information about Jesus? Which says Jesus claimed divinity.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
Hi
I’m no scholar but I think the original greek does not say what you are saying.
Peace,
Ryan 🙂
Hi

Don’t you worry, nobody speaks the ancient greek or latin or hebrew or aramaic. We are in the 21st century. In every language I am, is, I am never specific for Jesus.

Thanks
 
But of course non-Christians have no particular reason to think that Jesus said this. Why should they automatically believe that Jesus said whatever the Gospel writers say He said? (Particularly in the case of John, which was certainly the last Gospel written and diverges in so many ways from the others.)

Edwin
That is a very good question. But I believe it can be answered. If Jesus never claimed divinity, than the Gospels never would have been accepted as inspired. Followers of Christ would have thought them to be heretical. But they didn’t. They accepted and even revered the texts. I find it inconceivable that in the span of only a few decades between the resurrection and the writing of the gospels, the “novel” idea of Christ’s divinity could have been introduced without producing any outrage or internal strife in the Christian community. Had the Gospels ascribed to Christ profound teachings He never taught, His followers would have raised their voices in opposition.

But that didn’t happen. There are writings going all the way back to the very beginning of the second century in which Christian leaders (such as Ignatius of Antioch) are speaking of Christ’s divinity (in a non-apologetical manner). The statements are made in the context of expressing orthodox views, not challenging accepted views with a new heterodox teaching.

Take for example the following quote from Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD: “[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1). This text is fairly standard. Ignatius invokes a common expression “Our God” and applies it to Christ, without feeling the need to include apologetical materials to support the claim that Christ is divine. It was written instead in a manner that makes it clear that the view expressed was consistent with accepted teaching.

In order to believe that Christ never taught His own divinity, we also have to believe that when this profoundly different doctrinal view arrived, ascribing a divine nature to Jesus that wasn’t believed previously, it produced no shock waves in the Christian community–no internal wars, or even heated debate, no nothing, just acceptance.

I simply fail to see how, only a few decades after Christ’s resurrection, the whole of Christianity could suddenly start believing Christ to be “Our God” when He had never taught His divinity. Moreover I don’t see how such a dramatic doctrinal shift could happen and produce no internal strife in the Christian community. Somehow it just happened that even though Jesus never claimed a divine nature, everyone suddenly believed him to be God, a view that was held in near-unanimity for centuries until the emergence of the Arian heresy.
 
I don’t remember who used that quote (“Lord, liar, or lunatic”), but I know that my priest has used it to challenge those who would question the divinity of Christ.

So my honest question to non-Christians is “which one of those words best describes Christ?” Because of the nature of His claims, He was either telling the truth, lying, or was insane (for no mere mortal can claim to be God without either lying or suffering from a crazed delusion).

The idea that Jesus has to be one of the above-mentioned descriptions is almost unquestionable, because few scholars deny the fact that Jesus made the claims (many deny that His claims are true, but few deny that he made them).

Therefore I ask non-Christians, which one was Jesus: Lord, liar, or lunatic?
I’d add one more choice to that list. Lord, liar, lunatic or legend. I say legend.
 
Hi

Don’t you worry, nobody speaks the ancient greek or latin or hebrew or aramaic. We are in the 21st century. In every language I am, is, I am never specific for Jesus.

Thanks
Hi

Believe what you want to. That is only one of many examples of Jesus claiming his divinity.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
I suppose reformer would be an apt lable. But asking people to follow him rather than the Torah is a bit more than reform.
What teachings of Jesus, other than the Eucharist, are at odds with the Torah? If you focus only on the four Gospels, was Jesus not a proper Jew?
 
What teachings of Jesus, other than the Eucharist, are at odds with the Torah? If you focus only on the four Gospels, was Jesus not a proper Jew?
It seems that Jesus did not believe in following the oral teachings which explained how to follow Torah.

Saying that he would be the new Temple would have raised a few eyebrows and would be contrary to how Judaism views the Temple.

Also, as I have stated in another thread, several times in the Torah we have God stating that all of Israel shall be a holy people. We have Israel, as a people, being both blessed and cursed. Jesus does not teach this and his teachings are directed only at the individuals who choose to follow his “Way”. He has no message for “eternal Israel” and his message regarding children going against their parents is contrary to binding Israel as a community. He is more concerned with an individual’s faith in him than in the importnace of Torah to the people of Israel. This would be seen as contrary to normative Judaism at the time.

I’m not an expert in the Gospels, and I have some notes at home that might be useful in answering this question more fully. Two things that stick out in my memory are Jesus allowing his students to harvest food on Sabbath wihtout there being any life threatneing reason to do so, and his curing ailments on the Sabbath that were not life threatening.
 
It seems that Jesus did not believe in following the oral teachings which explained how to follow Torah.

Saying that he would be the new Temple would have raised a few eyebrows and would be contrary to how Judaism views the Temple.

Also, as I have stated in another thread, several times in the Torah we have God stating that all of Israel shall be a holy people. We have Israel, as a people, being both blessed and cursed. Jesus does not teach this and his teachings are directed only at the individuals who choose to follow his “Way”. He has no message for “eternal Israel” and his message regarding children going against their parents is contrary to binding Israel as a community. He is more concerned with an individual’s faith in him than in the importnace of Torah to the people of Israel. This would be seen as contrary to normative Judaism at the time.
Ok. These are good points.
I’m not an expert in the Gospels, and I have some notes at home that might be useful in answering this question more fully. Two things that stick out in my memory are Jesus allowing his students to harvest food on Sabbath wihtout there being any life threatneing reason to do so, and his curing ailments on the Sabbath that were not life threatening.
No big deal. You answered my question to my satisfaction. Although about the healings, do you think that the people who were healed cared that it was on the sabbath? One of the cases was of a blind man. Being blind at that time was worse than it is today. Would his new ability to function not constitute a serious enough reason to cure him? Also, those who had the claims against Jesus about healing the blind man never did anything to help him the other days, as he was found outside the temple every day. Someone could have had pitty on him and taken him in so that the begging could end.
 
Ok. These are good points.

No big deal. You answered my question to my satisfaction. Although about the healings, do you think that the people who were healed cared that it was on the sabbath? One of the cases was of a blind man. Being blind at that time was worse than it is today. Would his new ability to function not constitute a serious enough reason to cure him? Also, those who had the claims against Jesus about healing the blind man never did anything to help him the other days, as he was found outside the temple every day. Someone could have had pitty on him and taken him in so that the begging could end.
Well, I know it sounds a bit meshugana, but the healing could have waited until after the Sabbath. It is permited (required, really) to violate the Sabbath in order to save a life, but not to cure a non life threatening illness.

However, let me just say that as a Jew who has often violated the Sabbath, I’m not one to cast stones.
 
Well, I know it sounds a bit meshugana, but the healing could have waited until after the Sabbath. It is permited (required, really) to violate the Sabbath in order to save a life, but not to cure a non life threatening illness.

However, let me just say that as a Jew who has often violated the Sabbath, I’m not one to cast stones.
I think that you hit upon one of Jesus’s issues. The oral stuff had gotten a little off. For instance, it was allowed to keep a fire going but not restart it or transport wood. The distance that one travelled had to be kept down. Even today, I personally know of Jews who will not drive at all on the Sabbath. To my lazy self, walking is more work than driving ever will be.
 
Why should a non-Christian believe anything the Gospel writers say then?
There are a set of criteria that scholars have developed for figuring out which parts of the Gospels can be accepted confidently as reliable from a purely historical perspective. You can read about these criteria in the work of Catholic scholars such as John Meier–they are shared by Christians and non-Christians alike. Some of these criteria can be challenged from a scholarly point of view (particularly the “criterion of discontinuity,” which says that statements by/about Jesus are more likely to be true if they are unlike both Jesus’ Jewish context and later Christian doctrine), but others (such as independent attestation) are just basic historical principles. They do not of course limit what we as Christians believe to be true about Jesus, but they are helpful guides to keep us honest in what we expect non-Christians to accept prior to any adherence to the Christian faith.
Wouldn’t they have to rely on Christian tradition then for information about Jesus? Which says Jesus claimed divinity.
But Christian tradition does not say this in a uniform way. The four Gospels all have slightly different ways of stating who Jesus is, and only John records an explicit claim of divinity. A secular historian can compare the different Christian traditions with each other and try to figure out which is reliable. One helpful result of this kind of scholarship is that we Christians become more aware of the distinctive voices of the New Testament documents, which we often blur by harmonizing them all.

However, you’re right that we are almost exclusively dependent on Christian tradition for information about Jesus. But this is true for other religions as well. We don’t really know anything about Muhammad independently of Muslim sources, or anything about Buddha independently of Buddhist sources (in all three cases we do have other testimonies, but pretty much all of them appear to be later than and dependent on the “inside” sources).

Edwin
 
That is a very good question. But I believe it can be answered. If Jesus never claimed divinity, than the Gospels never would have been accepted as inspired.
Obviously they weren’t by many people. (And only the Gospel of John makes an explicit claim of divinity–even that doesn’t say quite what the Nicene dogma says, but it’s the closest.)
Followers of Christ would have thought them to be heretical. But they didn’t. They accepted and even revered the texts.
Those Christians whose version of Christianity we have inherited did so, true. But it’s clear from the NT and even more so from the second-century sources that there were a lot of dissenting voices. Why do you think the NT is full of references to “false teachers”?
I find it inconceivable that in the span of only a few decades between the resurrection and the writing of the gospels, the “novel” idea of Christ’s divinity could have been introduced without producing any outrage or internal strife in the Christian community.
But there’s every evidence that there was plenty of internal strife.
Had the Gospels ascribed to Christ profound teachings He never taught, His followers would have raised their voices in opposition.
Many would say (I’m not among them, but it can’t be simply disproved historically) that Christ’s most faithful followers were those labeled “Ebionites,” whom we know by the witness of early Christians did deny Jesus’ divinity. The Epistle of James is entirely consistent with such a position.
But that didn’t happen. There are writings going all the way back to the very beginning of the second century in which Christian leaders (such as Ignatius of Antioch) are speaking of Christ’s divinity (in a non-apologetical manner).
Right. In Ignatius’s context the Ebionites don’t seem to be the major threat–the Docetists were. For many early Christians (put “Christians” in scare quotes if you like) it was Jesus’ humanity, not His divinity, that was a problem. But that could be taken as evidence simply of how attractive the idea of an incarnate deity was in that culture (in other words, from an Ebionite point of view the emerging “orthodox” and the “Gnostics” would seem to be two degrees of the same basic error–introducing a Gentile concept of incarnate deity into Biblical religion and thus corrupting it).
Take for example the following quote from Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD: “[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1). This text is fairly standard. Ignatius invokes a common expression “Our God” and applies it to Christ, without feeling the need to include apologetical materials to support the claim that Christ is divine. It was written instead in a manner that makes it clear that the view expressed was consistent with accepted teaching.
I am not convinced by that argument. I don’t think anything Ignatius says can be taken as uncontested. The letters are argumentative through and through, and even when he simply asserts, he may be asserting in order to underline a controversial point that distinguishes his community from others that claim to be Christian.

Your entire post ignores the existence of the Ebionites, which is an incontrovertible historical fact.

It’s certainly true that they never seem to have had much appeal in the Gentile world. But there are cultural explanations for this.

Please bear in mind that I’m playing devil’s advocate in order to make the point that the evidence is inconclusive. I don’t think that the Ebionites were the best interpreters of who Jesus was. But the argument that Christianity as we know it is an essentially Gentile construction is a serious one that has to be dealt with, not simply ignored or dismissed.

Edwin
 
Well, Lord is out. I don’t believe he was a lunatic because I don’t believe he ever claimed to be God. I don’t want to call him a liar. Since this question is addressed to those who don’t believe in Jesus, I’m not sure what kind of answer you are looking for. I thing the most charitable description I can use is that he was a person who believed he understood what God wanted for the Jews and possibly thought of himself as the Messiah.
{Romans 14:11} regardless… Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess. :bowdown2:
 
… I am is for everybody, you might be saying many times a day, I am here, so do I, it is not specific for Jesus, he was not even born then, not even his mother…
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God… {John 1:1} …and the Word was made flesh… {John 1:14} So… Jesus was correct when he stated… “before Abraham was, I AM” :bowdown2: Praise be to Jesus… who is also the great “I AM” Jesus and his father are one. (I do believe in the trinity… just wanted to clarify! 🙂 )
 
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