Lord of the Dance

[Phemie]

I haven’t heard Lord of the Dance at mass for a while…but every time I hear it I equate it as being an Irish pub song!

Back in the 70’s I loved listening to a band called the Irish Rovers who sang that as part of their repertoire - along with The Unicorn Song, et al. I was so surprised to come across Lord of the Dance in the “Catholic Book of Worship” (official Canadian Catholic hymnal) when I was thumbing through it one day - and even more surprised to hear it at mass on a number of occasions over the years. But then, that’s the hymnal that also has one of my favourite Cat Stevens songs as well - “Morning Has Broken”.

Jen

Mercifully, it isn’t included in the CBW III, although “Morning Has Broken” still is.

To be fair it must be said that Eleanor Farjeon’s “Morning Has Broken” was in hymnals for about 40 years before Cat Stevens included it on his “Teaser and the Firecat” album. I don’t so much hate the lyrics as find the tune BUNESSAN impossible to sing.

 

[driver9]

The tune is wonderful and IMO Sydney Carter’s adaption of the Shaker original is an improvement.

Sadly, it gives me serious pause for thought to discover that he thought the lyrics were most likely going to be thought heretical.

I can see the value of using the analogy of the Christianization of pagan practice. Of course Carter thought not that the song was pagan but that it might be considered heretical. In general the church has wanted to distinguish true doctrine from its heretical counterpart rather clearly, in order that the faithful be not misled. Nevertheless, perhaps there is some mileage to be had - if the composer’s estate would permit a rewriting of the lyrics to clarify what might be seem its possible heresy.

Until that point I think there has to be a question about how appropriate it is to be used in orthodox Christian worship.

 

[benedictgal]

I love the song and always have. The Shaker melody is one of the most beautiful ever composed (Copland used it in his Appalachian Suite). And I think the imagery in the poem is wondrous and touching. It really communicates to me personally how Jesus established His Kingdom, suffered His Passion, and rose from the dead while He was here with us on earth.

I can understand why people don’t “get it,” but I don’t understand how people can criticize a hymn just because they don’t understand it.

As for the questionable background of the hymn, I agree with the Redemptorist philosophy–we need to “redeem” the things of this earth and use them to glorify the Lord. There are many things that we enjoy that were created by sinners. I think that if you did some digging, you would discover that many of our hymns are very murky in their origins.

The church is Redemptorist, and music was amazing. Not only did they do the “rock” type songs that so many people on this forum despise, but they also did several excellent classical pieces as well as Latin chant. The priest sang much of the Mass. It was a very musical Mass.

One of the many, many hymns was Lord of the Dance.

By the end of the hymn, my older daughter–the new Catholic–was crying. You see, she is the production stage manager of a professional ballet company, and to her, the hymn is REAL. Dance is what she does for a living, and she understood all the imagery in the hymn.

I think we all need to realize and accept that as long as the song is in our Catholic hymnals, it has been approved by someone in authority over us laity, and even if we don’t like it personally, we should try to tolerate it because somewhere in the congregation, a person like my daughter is singing the hymn with all her heart because it means something wonderful to her. Our personal preferences are not an adequate reason to discredit something.

One more thing–do you believe that the liturgical director ignores the Holy Spirit when selecting hymns for Mass, and just chooses what he/she likes? Personally, I don’t think this is a very charitable thought. In fact, I think it’s rather bad–to think that a servant of the Lord is deliberately going against the leading of the Holy Spirit and selecting “blasphemous” or “inappropriate songs.” This certainly isn’t very respectful of the power of the Holy Spirit or to the priests who have hired their liturgical director. I think that most liturgical directors rely heavily on the Holy Spirit to help them plan the “nuts and bolts” of the Mass. Of course they refer to the G.I.R.M. and other liturgical documents. These documents do not exclude as much as some of you seem to think they exclude. I suggest giving the liturgical director the benefit of the doubt and accepting that he/she is making the choices that the Holy Spirit would have him/her to make. If you disagree with their choices, perhaps it would be best to take it up with the Holy Spirit.

Cat, I read your post on the other thread you referenced and I was wondering when you would opine here.

First of all, sentimentalities aside, this song is nonsensical and does not even remotely represent the salviffic mysteries that unfold before us at every Mass. Perhaps you did not read one of the posters’ explanation of the song. There is a lot of heresy in those words that render the song grossly inappropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

OCP does not have any authority over liturgical music. That is a serious error to even consider that they have a power. Even though we don’t use the imprimatur anymore (or the nihl obstat), songs such as The Lord of the Dance are highly suspect. The lyrics cheapen and demean what the Lord has done. Furthemore, they are based on a heretical gospel that was banned by the Church from the very beginning. It does not even pretend to adequately capture how Christ established His Kingdom (he certainly didn’t dance all the way throughout Judea and Galilee), suffered through His Passion, Death and finally His Resurrection. This song is far from the Gospel as one can get.

We all have sentimental attachments to things; but, when they are squarely against the Church’s interpretation and her guidelines for liturgical music then we have take the words of our Holy Father to heart when he writes:

Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129).

Careful examination of the lyrics of Lord of the Dance indicates that it grossly fails to respect the meaning of the liturgy. Furthermore, to reduce what happened on Calvary as a mere dance diminishes the supreme act of Redemption and love that Christ did for us. Jesus was far from dancing. In fact, the synoptic Gospels tell us that he underwent a painful agony prior to his Passion. Jesus didn’t float through anything. What he experienced was far more deeper and more intense than the triviality of the dance referenced in the song.

Lastly, as good and as holy as religious orders are, we must hold true to what the Church’s interpretation of liturgy is. The religious orders flow from the Church, not the other way around. They are not greater than the Church nor do they speak with her authority.

 

[sphilomena]

There are so many associations that dumb song brings to mind, none of them having anything to do with the Resurrection of the Lord.

Unfortunately the first association that comes to mind is that silly Riverdance guy, leaping and lurching in a leotard like a lepruchan on ‘ludes. If I wanted that, I could skip Mass and turn on the PBS fundraiser. If the Riverdance is not airing for the 10,00th time, I could probably catch that Peter Paul and Mary Turn 75 and Sing Offkey As Always concert, too, which always puts me of a mind to attend a knee-slappin’ Saturday evening Kumbaya Mass. Yee haw.

I thought the OP was a jest; they really did sing that song! Yes, I too immediately visualized the Riverdance performance.

 

[Pani_Rose]

I like the song, but for Ressurection Litugy…NOT!

Scripture says God ‘inhabits’ the praises of his people.
however, the verse that comes closest is Zephaniah 3:17

17 The LORD, your God, is in your midst, a mighty savior; He will rejoice over you with gladness, and renew you in his love, He will sing joyfully because of you,

usccb.org/nab/bible/zephaniah/zephaniah3.htm
Some Scripture verses about dance…
Ps 30:11; Ps 149:3; Ps 150:4; Eccles 3:4; 2 Sam 6:14; Matt. 14:6; Ex. 32:19; Judg. 21:23; 1 Sam 18:6; Jer 31:13; Lam 5:15; Mark 6:22; Luke 7:32.

Let them praise His name with the dance; Let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:3

       Praise Him with the timbrel          and dance;
       Praise Him with stringed          instruments and flutes! Psalm 150:4

Then David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was wearing a linen ephod. II Samuel 6:14

And it happened, as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the City of David, that Michal, Saul’s daughter, looked through a window and saw King David whirling (dancing) and playing music; and she despised him in her heart. I Chronicles 15:29

Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice. Psalm 51:8

Zion hears and is glad, And the daughters of Judah rejoiced
Because of Your judgments, O LORD. Psalm 97:8

 

[sphilomena]

I like the song, but for Ressurection Litugy…NOT!

Scripture says God ‘inhabits’ the praises of his people.
however, the verse that comes closest is Zephaniah 3:17

17 The LORD, your God, is in your midst, a mighty savior; He will rejoice over you with gladness, and renew you in his love, He will sing joyfully because of you,

usccb.org/nab/bible/zephaniah/zephaniah3.htm
Some Scripture verses about dance…
Ps 30:11; Ps 149:3; Ps 150:4; Eccles 3:4; 2 Sam 6:14; Matt. 14:6; Ex. 32:19; Judg. 21:23; 1 Sam 18:6; Jer 31:13; Lam 5:15; Mark 6:22; Luke 7:32.

Let them praise His name with the dance; Let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:3

       Praise Him with the timbrel          and dance;
       Praise Him with stringed          instruments and flutes! Psalm 150:4

Then David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was wearing a linen ephod. II Samuel 6:14

And it happened, as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the City of David, that Michal, Saul’s daughter, looked through a window and saw King David whirling (dancing) and playing music; and she despised him in her heart. I Chronicles 15:29

Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice. Psalm 51:8

Zion hears and is glad, And the daughters of Judah rejoiced
Because of Your judgments, O LORD. Psalm 97:8

You’re not advocating liturgical dance, are you, since it’s forbidden by Rome? One can dance for the Lord outside of Mass.

 

[Cat]

benedictgal, you’re assuming that I’m interpreting the song literally. That’s not the case at all.

I know that Jesus didn’t “dance.” I am aware of that.

It’s a POEM, using creative language to help the reader (or singer) understand what Jesus did.

It’s like saying, “the skaters flew across the ice” or “the skater mopped up the ice.” I know and you know that the skaters didn’t “fly” across the ice or that the skater didn’t “mop up the ice.” A person who uses that phrase is being poetic and creating a word picture that helps us to better understand what is happening on the ice.

I really like poetry, allegories, word pictures, etc. I personally find stories like The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe a much more effective way to appreciate the Gospel story than just reading the Gospel story.

It is no more heretical than to picture Jesus’s Life and Passion as “dance” than it is to picture Him as a Lion named Aslan. These are poems, not theology.

 

[johnnykins]

Am I the only person who thinks of the Nataraja dance by Shiva whenever I hear this song?

Don’t like it - and don’t think it’s appropriate. What’s a little New Age crypto-Hinduism at Mass, anyway

 

[cecilia97]

I just got home from easter Mass. Every year our choir makes a huge ordeal out of Lord of The Dance. Am I the only one who cannot stand this song durring Mass let alone at Easter. Maby I am missing the point but not only does it sound terrible the words are none inspirring tosay the least. Out of the 3,000,000 songs available could they not find something more apealing. I noticed after the choir finished that most of the people that clapped were not there on normal Sundays. Is my Parish the only one that does this. After a little research it seems this is an adaptaion of a shaker song.

I’ve only heard this song once, in a totally secular context. Yuck! That’s my opinion.

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal, you’re assuming that I’m interpreting the song literally. That’s not the case at all.

I know that Jesus didn’t “dance.” I am aware of that.

It’s a POEM, using creative language to help the reader (or singer) understand what Jesus did.

It’s like saying, “the skaters flew across the ice” or “the skater mopped up the ice.” I know and you know that the skaters didn’t “fly” across the ice or that the skater didn’t “mop up the ice.” A person who uses that phrase is being poetic and creating a word picture that helps us to better understand what is happening on the ice.

I really like poetry, allegories, word pictures, etc. I*** personally find stories like The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe a much more effective way to appreciate the Gospel story than just reading the Gospel story. ***

It is no more heretical than to picture Jesus’s Life and Passion as “dance” than it is to picture Him as a Lion named Aslan. These are poems, not theology.

That is indeed a very sad commentary, to think that work of fiction is much more meaningful than the Gospel itself.

Cat, I don’t think that you read what one of the posters said regarding the song. There are some very big problems. Art is supposed to help bring the mystery forward, but, it is not the mystery, nor should it obscure the true meaning. Art is at the service of the truth, not the other way around.

Sometimes, we can get so hung up on a song that we ignore the fact that it is blatant heresy. All of the pretty music in the world cannot change that.

As far as Pani Rose’s comments are concerned, loose interpretation often leads to treading on dangerously thin ice. The biblical verses should not be pulled out of context in order to justify things that are very problematic and forbidden by Rome.

We must read scripture and interpret it with the mind and heart of the Church and not twist and turn things to suit our own idiosyncracies.

 

[Shoreguy1105]

This is why I went to my home church which still sings the old
Polish Easter Hymns such as “Wesoly nam dzien dzis nastal”. Nothing make Easter more special than that. Also do any of your churches carry on the Polish custom of making a tableau of Christ’s Tomb?

 

[Cat]

Here is a link to the lyrics:

celtic-lyrics.com/forum/index.php?autocom=tclc&code=lyrics&id=309

benedictgal and others who dislike the song: Please point out the heresies. Thank you so much.

Also, benedictgal, I did NOT say that a work of fiction is more meaningful than the Gospel itself. PLEASE do not twist my words around and then criticize me for being a sinner that YOU have created.

I said that “I find stories…a much more effective way to appreciate the Gospel story more than just reading the Gospel story.”

There is nothing at all for you to be “sad” about. Most of the Catholics reading this–and I too!–would say that listening to a good homily helps you to appreciate the Gospel story more than just reading the Gospel story.

Or many of you would say that studying a great work of art (e.g., the Cistine Chapel) helps you to appreciate the Gospel story more than just reading the Gospel story.

If my writing was not clear in my original statement, then I apologize for accusing you of twisting my words. I hope that I have clarified my statement.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I just got home from easter Mass. Every year our choir makes a huge ordeal out of Lord of The Dance. Am I the only one who cannot stand this song durring Mass let alone at Easter. Maby I am missing the point but not only does it sound terrible the words are none inspirring tosay the least. Out of the 3,000,000 songs available could they not find something more apealing. I noticed after the choir finished that most of the people that clapped were not there on normal Sundays. Is my Parish the only one that does this. After a little research it seems this is an adaptaion of a shaker song.

Actually, this is one of my favorites. I like to hear it a couple times a year. It is good when you need uplifting music. Now that I think about it, I have heard it at a few Easter Sunday masses in the past.

 

[driver9]

Of course, poetry as such is neither heretical nor orthodox. Nevertheless some poetry can be clearly heretical. Lord of the Dance is I think ambiguous enough that it could easily be interpreted as heretical (as the composer thought was likely). It’s central metaphor of the Dance, is completely unclear in reference and this is a major lack given that it is the controlling image of the song. (It could easily, and perhaps is, intended to be both pantheistic and docetic).

It is the church’s task to ensure that songs sung in Christian worship are fitting - both in style and in content. Given that the author of the lyric thought it may well be considered heretical, and that it is inspired by the dancing hindu god Shiva, then it should give us reason to reflect on what whether this lyric is fitting for use in worship.

For some comments by the composer see:

stainer.co.uk/lotd.html

(It’s worth saying again that despite the use of it by a variety of folk musicians from a variety of countries, including Ireland, this is a 1960s folk song, composed by an Englishman, a lifelong Londoner, based on an American hymn tune. It’s not celtic at any stage of its origins).

 

[shannyk]

Am I the only one who cannot stand this song durring Mass let alone at Easter.

No, you’re not.

That and “We Come to Your Feast” and “Eagle’s Wings” are just a few of the songs that really test my fortitude.

 

[driver9]

Sidney Carter’s melody is IMO stirring and joyful and if music in the folk idiom has place in worship (another discussion!) then it could have a place.

The lyrics are IMO inappropriate for Christian worship and the powerful melody demands a better set of lyrics, if it is to find a home in the repertoire of music sung by the church.

FWIW Sydney Carter wrote other lyrics to a similar melody dedicated to the memory of George Fox, the founder of the Quakers:

There’s a light that is shining in the heart of a man,
it’s the light that was shining when the world began.
There’s a light that is shining in the Turk and the Jew
and a light that is shining, friend, in me and in you.

“With a book and a steeple, with a bell and a key
they would bind it forever, but they can’t,” said he.
“Oh, the book it will perish and the steeple will fall,
but the light will be shining at the end of it all.”

“If we give you a pistol, will you fight for the Lord?”
“But you can’t kill the Devil with a gun or a sword!”
“Will you swear on the Bible?” “I will not!” said he,
“For the truth is more holy than the book, to me.”

There’s an ocean of darkness and I drown in the night
till I come through the darkness to the ocean of light,
for the light is forever and the light it is free,
“And I walk in the glory of the light,” said he.

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal and others who dislike the song: Please point out the heresies. Thank you so much.

Also, benedictgal, I did NOT say that a work of fiction is more meaningful than the Gospel itself. PLEASE do not twist my words around and then criticize me for being a sinner that YOU have created.

I said that “I find stories…a much more effective way to appreciate the Gospel story more than just reading the Gospel story.”

There is nothing at all for you to be “sad” about. Most of the Catholics reading this–and I too!–would say that listening to a good homily helps you to appreciate the Gospel story more than just reading the Gospel story.

Or many of you would say that studying a great work of art (e.g., the Cistine Chapel) helps you to appreciate the Gospel story more than just reading the Gospel story.

If my writing was not clear in my original statement, then I apologize for accusing you of twisting my words. I hope that I have clarified my statement.

Cat, you were the one who wrote those words:

I really like poetry, allegories, word pictures, etc. I personally find stories like The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe ***a much more effective way to appreciate the Gospel story than just reading the Gospel story. ***

No one is twisting what you said, as that is, in fact, what you wrote. You even thought that clarification was necessary.

The song bases itself on the Acts of John, a heretical gospel which claims that Jesus led his disciples in a dance. This particular “gospel” is part of the writings of the gnostics, a misguided group of souls that believed that the body was bad and that only the spiritual was good. What this song does is, in effect, reduce the salviffic acts of our Redemption to a mere prancing around the global stage and does not take the glorious work of Jesus very seriously. It makes light of Jesus’ supreme sacrifice.

Here is the very questionable part of the Acts of John:

Grace danceth. I would pipe; dance ye all. Amen.

I would mourn: lament ye all. Amen.

The number Eight (lit. one ogdoad) singeth praise with us. Amen.

The number Twelve danceth on high. Amen.

The Whole on high hath part in our dancing. Amen.

Whoso danceth not, knoweth not what cometh to pass. Amen.

A door am I to thee that knockest at me. Amen.

A way am I to thee a wayfarer. [amen].

96 Now answer thou (or as thou respondest) unto my dancing. Behold thyself in me who speak, and seeing what I do, keep silence about my mysteries.

Thou that dancest, perceive what I do, for thine is this passion of the manhood, which I am about to suffer. For thou couldest not at all have understood what thou sufferest if I had not been sent unto thee, as the word of the Father. Thou that sawest what I suffer sawest me as suffering, and seeing it thou didst not abide but wert wholly moved, moved to make wise. Thou hast me as a bed, rest upon me. Who I am, thou shalt know when I depart. What now I am seen to be, that I am not. Thou shalt see when thou comest. If thou hadst known how to suffer, thou wouldest have been able not to suffer. Learn thou to suffer, and thou shalt be able not to suffer. What thou knowest not, I myself will teach thee. Thy God am I, not the God of the traitor. I would keep tune with holy souls. In me know thou the word of wisdom. Again with me say thou: Glory be to thee, Father; glory to thee, Word; glory to thee, Holy Ghost. And if thou wouldst know concerning me, what I was, know that with a word did I deceive all things and I was no whit deceived. I have leaped: but do thou understand the whole, and having understood it, say: Glory be to thee, Father. Amen.

97 Thus, my beloved, having danced with us the Lord went forth.

Sydney Carter based his song not on a true Gospel, but, on a heretical gnostic abomination.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

To place this always on the children doesn’t work, as smaller children don’t always understand the lyrics, and can’t always read (or read very well). They learn it by what they think they are hearing.

So, we have…

…Dance, dance, the dancing flea, I am the dancing flea, said he…

…And I’ll meet you all at the dance, Sara Lee…

…and other wonderful lyrics. Entertainment value: Priceless. Liturgical value: Plummenting quickly.

 

[driver9]

To what does the metaphor of the dance refer? The inspiration of metaphor seems to be:

1. The gnostic liturgical dancing related in the Apocryphal Acts of John
2. The dancing hindu God, Shiva
3. The use of dance in Shaker “charismatic” worship (“Simple Gifts”, with its teaching that “To turn, turn will be our delight,Till by turning, turning we come round right” is clearly a “dancing song”)

 

[Sarabande]

I just got home from easter Mass. Every year our choir makes a huge ordeal out of Lord of The Dance. Am I the only one who cannot stand this song durring Mass let alone at Easter. Maby I am missing the point but not only does it sound terrible the words are none inspirring tosay the least. Out of the 3,000,000 songs available could they not find something more apealing. I noticed after the choir finished that most of the people that clapped were not there on normal Sundays. Is my Parish the only one that does this. After a little research it seems this is an adaptaion of a shaker song.

I’m actually surprised that this hymn is still being played. I haven’t heard it done in any parish I’ve attended since grade school in the 1980s. I thought it was long dead.

You are right, it is an adaptation of a Shaker hymn. Using a melody from a Protestant hymn, etc. is not a problem as you can place text that are appropriate for a Catholic mass. It’s the text used and the way that it is performed that cheapens it. I prefer Aaron Copeland’s “Simple Gifts” (which is the original) and sung like an art song during a recital, but not appropriate for mass. From what I remember hearing “Lord of the Dance” as a kid in various churches, they’d take it at a skippy and ditzy tempo and would just sound too light and superficial, with no depth - just a fun song that would be great for kid parties, but not for mass.