Lord of the Rings

[Socrates]

I read the trilogy when I was a kid but I recently re-read it after seeing the movies. There certainly is alot more Christian and specifically Catholic themes in the books, but I still think that they did a marvelous job putting the trilogy on the screen. It’s virtually impossible to include everything from a book in a movie, but they remained very faithful to the book even though some things were necessarily left out.

In ROTK (the book) I was struck at how much Frodo and Sam’s journey through Mordor to Mount Doom reminded me of the stations of the cross. Sam at times played the role of Mary or Simon of Cyrene.

Aragorn being the “king with healing hands” was also obviously Christ like. The importance of oral tradition in the various cultures struck me as well. In a broader sense, the books very clearly condemn moral relativism. I can’t recall the exact quote, but I think Aragorn says something about how good and evil are absolute and not one thing for the elves and another for dwarves or for men.

I wish I had read the books with a highlighter because there is so much there. It’s not allegorical like Lewis’ stories were but there is a very deep Catholic influence.

 

[Faustina]

Brain:

THE Ring = sin
rings = power (the weak are corrupted, the wise are not)

The deeper in sin we are the further away from Christ we are, hence when Frodo, Bilbo or anyone puts on the ring, that person would disappear.

 

[mlchance]

Pandora:

Frodo is the Suffering Christ, Gandalf is the Risen Christ, Aragorn is Christ the King.

According to Tolkein himself, no, they’re not. Frodo is Frodo, Gandalf is Gandalf, Aragorn is Aragorn, and Tolkein loathed allegory.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Oshiego_Rod]

Hey, I found this pretty cool site: mythictruth.com/ :bounce:

 

[Oshiego_Rod]

Hey, I found this pretty cool site: mythictruth.com/ :bounce:

 

[dream_wanderer]

I think I remember reading a letter from Tolkien (or perhaps notes from someone who knew him) that he didn’t intend for the books to be allegorical or theological but at the same time he didn’t want them to conflict with his Catholic beliefs. I wish I could find that but I think I read it in a library book…

So while he probably didn’t intend for Frodo/Gandalf and Aragorn to be ‘Christ’ figures if you think it fits…go with it.

dream wanderer

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ah, this is why I stopped watching the movie versions after The Two Towers.

Two of the many philosophical insights in LOTR are:

On End of Life (Return of the King; at a lull in the battle, when the good forces seemed to be losing)

Pippin – I didn’t think it would end this way.

Gandalf – End? No, the journey doesn’t end here. Death is just another path … one that we all must take. The grey rain rolls back … and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it.

Pippin – What Gandalf? See what?

Gandalf – White shores and beyond … a far green country … under a swift sunrise.

Pippin – Well … that isn’t so bad.

Gandalf – No. No, it isn’t.

On Prayer (Fellowship of the Ring; after ringwraiths were wiped out by the water wave on the river)

Arwen - No. No! Frodo, no. Frodo, don’t give in. Not now.

What grace is given to me … let it pass to him. Let him be spared. Save him.

Why? Because these words and scenes AREN’T IN THE BOOK!!!

ARRRRGGGGHHHH!

I understand the need for editing and I understand that directors DIRECT, but really, with all the REAL stuff that Tolkien wrote, words and scenes such as these (and don’t even get me started on how they loused up the scenes in TT with Faramir actually TAKING Frodo and Sam to Gondor, etc.) depress me. Why does every “director”, “star”, “actor”, “writer” etc. feel he or she has to REINVENT the darn wheel???

 

[philipmarus]

Yes, but they are in the spirit of tolkien. There were certain problems when adapting to the screen to have a lot to do with dramatic effect. On example: In RTOK, the scenes with Denathor attempting to sacrifice his son in a sort of viking funeral. In the book, I seem to remember Gandalf marching in and criticizing Denathor for being “like the heathen kings of old”. In the movie this is reversed, where Denathor prior to Gandalf’s arrival proclaims that he “do it like the heathen Kings of old”. Yes, a small change but it essentially acomplishes the same purpose as in book. Peter Jackson plays a small homage to “Scourging of the Shire” in Extended Ed. of Fellowship, but to include a filmed “Scourging of the Shire” at the end of RTOK would have been anti-climatic.

Maybe its just me but one of the most obvious “Catholic themes” is in the Extended Edition of Fellowship of the Ring. Aragorn when staying in Elrond finds a statue of his mother partially overgrown by weeds which looks incrediably like a statue of the Virgin Mary. Then the following dialogue ensures between Aragorn and Elrond:

Elrond: She wanted to protect her child
Elrond: She thought in Rivendell you would be safe
Elrond: In her heart your mother knew you would be hunted all
your life…That you never escape your fate.
Elrond: The skill of the elves can reforge the sword of kings. But
only you have the power to wield it.

Aragorn: I do not want that power…I have never wanted it.
Elrond: You are the last of that bloodline…There is no other.

It reminds of Mary, Joseph, Jesus and their being hunted by Herod.

 

[Lilyofthevalley]

IT was way too violent. NOT appropriate for a child 10-13. I made the mistake of buying it for my son as a Christmas present. I was cringing.

 

[sweetchuck]

CatholicSamurai:

I like the part in ROTK when Aragorn led an army of the dead and later freed them. Kinda like purgatory in a manner.

I think it’s more analogous to when Christ died and descended into the netherworld to free all the righteous who lived and died before He came.

 

[Chris_C]

The day the Ring is thrown into the pit at Mordor–25 March (feast of the Annunciation–Mary’s fiat!)

 

[Hospitaller]

There’s a very strong paralel between the holy White Tree of Numenor and the Cross. I especially love the fact that the Gondorian soldiers in the film have the image of the White Tree engraved on their armour and (in some cases) their weapons.

The Rohirrim have “Sun-images” worked into many aspects of their weapons or other gear, but they look supiciously like celtic crosses. Gimli has a cross worked into the top of his helmet. Anduril, the sword of the King, is the only sword in the films that is truly cruciform in shape.

 

[mlchance]

Lilyofthevalley:

IT was way too violent. NOT appropriate for a child 10-13. I made the mistake of buying it for my son as a Christmas present. I was cringing.

My 6- and 7-year-old have no problems with any of the films. Shelob in Return of the King scared Adrienne a bit, but I explained to her that the spider-monster was just a type of cartoon. The special features showing how Shelob was created and inserted into the film helped.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Will_Turner]

Lotr rules…and thanks to all of you who have contributed your vast knowledge and expertise dealing with the story lines…

 

[bquinnan]

mlchance:

According to Tolkein himself, no, they’re not. Frodo is Frodo, Gandalf is Gandalf, Aragorn is Aragorn, and Tolkein loathed allegory.

– Mark L. Chance.

You’re correct, from what I’ve read about Tolkein. I believe he would acknowledge that certain aspects of Christ are reflected in these and other characters. However, this might simply stem from the way Tolkein viewed good and evil, which happened to be the Catholic viewpoint, rather than him making a deliberate attempt to slip these parallels in.

Allegory or not, LOR is a very Catholic tale.

 

[bquinnan]

One of my favorite parts of LOR doesn’t actually appear in the movie. In the book, the power of Saruman is explained. To explain it briefly, he has the ability to persuade individuals to adopt flawed views of the world that lead to them commiting acts of evil and feeling justified in doing so.

However, there are limitations to this power, and one of them is that, when you are in the presence of others, you are not as easily seduced by Saruman’s voice. I find this to be so reflective of the way I’ve experienced sin in my own life – if I tried to explain to another person why I felt justified in doing such-and-such on a given occasion, the logic would never have flown. They would have asked me all of the “well, what about …” questions that would have revealed the faults in my logic. But, in the privacy of my own mind, these ideas seemed to make sense, because either the devil or I could destract me from those areas where the logic wasn’t tying together.

I see an effort in society today to keep moral beliefs “private” – “I can’t tell another person what to believe.” This enables people to believe all sorts of terrible things without ever having their ideas inspected for logical consistency.

I also thinks this idea helps demonstrate the importance of the Magisterium – the “teaching office” of the Church. Over the years, individuals have come up with all sorts of ideas about God, man and the relationship between the two that simply were inaccurate. Individuals can believe anything, but the Church helps shed the light of truth on flawed thinking.

There are situations where “group think” has led to evil as well, and I don’t think Tolkein was denying that. I think this part of the book just reflects the way evil ideology has to hide in the darkness, because it simply cannot stand up to real scrutiny.

I found this to be one of the most powerful moments in the trilogy, although I don’t know that it would have worked well on screen.

 

[Hospitaller]

bquinnan:

You’re correct, from what I’ve read about Tolkein. I believe he would acknowledge that certain aspects of Christ are reflected in these and other characters. However, this might simply stem from the way Tolkein viewed good and evil, which happened to be the Catholic viewpoint, rather than him making a deliberate attempt to slip these parallels in.

Allegory or not, LOR is a very Catholic tale.

What Tolkien meant when he spoke of “Allegory” was that the *Lord of the Rings *was not an allegory of the Second World War, as many people seemed to think then. Tolkien intended his created mythology to resonate on a more universal level, and I think it’s quite obvious that he purposely included the in many cases explicit paralels between his mythology and the universal truths of Christian belief. After all, Christianity is, as Tolkien said, “a true myth”.

 

[tgliang]

As an after thought … and I realize that after thoughts have 20/20 vision … if I were Theoden and known that I would be fighting the Haradrims on their elephants, I would have brought mice in cages and turned them loose in front of the elephants. There would be 20 cages with a thousand shrieking mice mice per cage to be turned loose. That would make the elephants would go berserk and turn around. It would save lives of the good guys!

Tom