Lord's Supper

[Duane1966]

The nature of what communion is, as per the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Faith cannot change and is not subject to an “Open communion” to those who do not discern the True body, blood of Jesus Christ (1Cor.11:23-29) can place themselves in judgement (unknowingly) for the body and blood of Christ.

An “open communion” can place one in a lax position to “unworthil” receive the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Gabriel, you miss the point. Even if you are not unworthily receiving it, by receiving your actions say: ***I believe *the doctrines this community teaches. Communion shows our unity with our fellow worshipers. This does not just apply to Catholicism.

No matter what your denomination, no matter where you receive, allowing others to receive who do not believe the doctrines your community holds, is an attempt to fundamentally change what communion is.

What I call into question here applies to faith. Which I gave an example of the greatest faith in all of Israel by a Roman Centurion.

Did the centurion believe what the Jews believed? If not, the point is moot.

Do you think the Catholic Church calls into question one of these little ones, who possesses a faith in the real true presence of Jesus body and blood?

Unless extraordinary circumstances apply, faith in the sacrament is not the only criteria. You seem to want to make it so.

Although this faith understanding, may not be in full communion with the CC due to “no fault of their own”.

Even if it is through no fault of their own, objectively, they do not believe what we believe.

I understand the OP’s interfaith communion question. What I am suggesting to look first at the faith of ones communicate. Which is diverse in symbolism or real presence.

Under your proposed system, there can be no objective criteria. Who decides whose faith meets the threshold under your system?

I know people who commune together who are actively on opposite sides of the abortion and same sex marriage issues. Both think they have great faith in Jesus. They clearly do not believe the same thing about Jesus. Are they in unity with each other? Seemingly yes. Objectively no.

 

[HelenRose]

There was an earlier thread related to Non-Catholics not being permitted to participate in Catholic Communion. Funny enough I was thinking about it during communion on Sunday and a slightly different question came to my mind.

Since Anglicans and Lutherans generally believe that Christ is physically present in the bread and wine and Baptists and Presbyterians generally believe in a symbolic presence, what is the experience when an Anglican/Lutheran participates in the Lord’s Supper at a Baptist/Presbyterian church and vice versa? Is it ever an issue for the person receiving if the Church they are in views it differently?

First of all, there is no one standing at the head of the line asking for an ID in order to receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. The reason for this rule is simply, you are receiving the Real Presence of Christ, if you do not believe this and are not a Catholic you are presenting yourself as something you are not.

The Church welcomes guests into the assembly, but it is rude for a guest to come into someone else’s home and demand that changes be made to suit their beliefs. Protestants believe that communion is a symbol and as such it really does not matter who receives because it is not real. As a Catholic I believe in the real Presence of Christ. That makes all the difference in the world.
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[Gabriel_of_12]

Duane1966;14829375]Gabriel, you miss the point. Even if you are not unworthily receiving it, by receiving your actions say: ***I believe ***the doctrines this community teaches. Communion shows our unity with our fellow worshipers. This does not just apply to Catholicism.

I am not making a point of debate. I am merely suggesting a faith in the real presence.

No matter what your denomination, no matter where you receive, allowing others to receive who do not believe the doctrines your community holds, is an attempt to fundamentally change what communion is.

Here you introduce doctrine and disciplines that a community practices. The only biblical doctrine of practice I have introduced, is receiving the body and blood unworthily. I believe this is the red line that is drawn for Holy Communion in the real presence.

All other disciplines apply to each one’s own faith community. When those who hold to a symbolic bread and drink do not and are not accepted to commune with those who hold to a real presence, when the latter are not permitted or who are protected from taking Holy Communion in the Catholic Church.

When you introduce the subject of disciplines, the Orthodox communion takes on a different form, which prevents a Latin Rite Catholic from receiving Holy Communion in an Orthodox communion.

The above, is one example that displaces your view for all interfaith communions. Because an Orthodox can receive communion in a Latin Rite, but a Latin Rite Catholic requires a special circumstance in order to receive the sacraments in an Orthodox Church. Thus we cannot generalize the whole as unable to receive holy communion.

Did the centurion believe what the Jews believed? If not, the point is moot.

This is what I have suggested. Although the Roman Centurion was not a Jew, Jesus found in him the greatest faith in all of Israel, the practice of disciplines and doctrinal believe is placed aside here for all to see.

Unless extraordinary circumstances apply, faith in the sacrament is not the only criteria. You seem to want to make it so.

No, I am opening a door for faith to proceed in disciplines and doctrine, when a faith like the Centurion is left suspended in need of Truth = disciplines and doctrines to practice.

Even if it is through no fault of their own, objectively, they do not believe what we believe.

Faith or “believe” in the real presence, like the Centurion is a beginning towards a full communion. Remember miracles are for the unbelievers.

Under your proposed system, there can be no objective criteria. Who decides whose faith meets the threshold under your system?

It’s not about my system. I am offering a subject of discussion in faith first before disciplines and doctrines are put into practice. To answer your question, It is God who decides whose faith is received such as these little ones.

I know people who commune together who are actively on opposite sides of the abortion and same sex marriage issues. Both think they have great faith in Jesus. They clearly do not believe the same thing about Jesus. Are they in unity with each other? Seemingly yes. Objectively no.

You just summarized the whole complexity of separated communions. When disciplines and doctrines places faith outside or apart, when it is both on the same par, faith and works.

 

[Duane1966]

I am not making a point of debate. I am merely suggesting a faith in the real presence.

But you seem to make faith in the real presence the threshold, when communion is supposed to be more than just faith in the Real Presence.

Here you introduce doctrine and disciplines that a community practices. The only biblical doctrine of practice I have introduced, is receiving the body and blood unworthily. I believe this is the red line that is drawn for Holy Communion in the real presence.

But again, one aspect of communion is community union. It’s not just union with Jesus. It’s union with His body also. It’s union with the community receiving it in. Inherent in that word, must be an acceptance of that communities doctrines, or there is no real communion. Mere belief in the Real Presence was never a historical criteria.

All other disciplines apply to each one’s own faith community. When those who hold to a symbolic bread and drink do not and are not accepted to commune with those who hold to a real presence, when the latter are not permitted or who are protected from taking Holy Communion in the Catholic Church.

No kidding. But this has nothing to do with the point I am making.

When you introduce the subject of disciplines, the Orthodox communion takes on a different form, which prevents a Latin Rite Catholic from receiving Holy Communion in an Orthodox communion.

No kidding.

The above, is one example that displaces your view for all interfaith communions. Because an Orthodox can receive communion in a Latin Rite, but a Latin Rite Catholic requires a special circumstance in order to receive the sacraments in an Orthodox Church. Thus we cannot generalize the whole as unable to receive holy communion.

Not at all. That Orthodox person is not supposed to receive communion in a Latin Rite church, according to the discipline of his church. You know why? Because they reject some of our doctrines.

This is what I have suggested. Although the Roman Centurion was not a Jew, Jesus found in him the greatest faith in all of Israel, the practice of disciplines and doctrinal believe is placed aside here for all to see.

Is Jesus addressing Holy Communion here? Not at all.

No, I am opening a door for faith to proceed in disciplines and doctrine, when a faith like the Centurion is left suspended in need of Truth = disciplines and doctrines to practice.

That door has never been closed. It’s called believing all that the Christ has revealed through His Church.

Do you for one minute believe the Apostles would give communion to people who believed in the Real Presence, but rejected an aspect of their teaching? Such a community existed at the time of the Apostles.

Faith or “believe” in the real presence, like the Centurion is a beginning towards a full communion. Remember miracles are for the unbelievers.

It is a beginning. But that’s all it is. Communion is accepting all of what the community teaches.

It’s not about my system. I am offering a subject of discussion in faith first before disciplines and doctrines are put into practice. To answer your question, It is God who decides whose faith is received such as these little ones.

It is about your system. Several times you have tried to say that faith in the Real Presence is enough. Objectively, it’s not.

You just summarized the whole complexity of separated communions. When disciplines and doctrines places faith outside or apart, when it is both on the same par, faith and works.

You’ve lost me here. We are separated, because we do not believe the same things about Jesus, on major issues. What I have attempted to show is that inherent to the word communion, is unity with the community you are receiving it in. No matter what the setting, open or closed, to receive in a community where you reject some aspect of what that community believes, becomes a lie on the part of the recipient. If they are not aware what that community teaches, objectively, communion would still not exist.