Losing Faith?

[Psychotheosophy]

That second sentence from my post you quoted was supposed to read, “By doing so they effectively rejected God as God.”

Apparently God knew that mans best fate temporarily is to live separated from Love in order to, without coercion but with the help of His grace and revelation, have the opportunity to come to learn Love’s value and, by some point, will to choose it above all else without reservation.

Since God is Love and Goodness (Value),
Through suffering, we learn about God?

We learn to value good things more,
Each time good things leave?

Our hope, while suffering, increases,
Each time good things come,
After waiting for their arrival?

God’s love teaches one this value by reaching out to us first…

All people naturally desire Happiness void of any unhappiness,
And God is Perfect Happiness?

…and then helping us to emulate Him in being willing to face rejection and/or death if it means saving another’s life-possibly both spiritually and physically-but spiritually first because we all die physically in any case.

God is Value and Existence.

Seeing Value in ourselves and the other person,
Helping others see Value in themselves,
Being Valuable?

And spiritual death is ugly. It’s when one loses all hope that this universe contains love and goodness and anything worth living for.

God is Love, Goodness, Value, and Existence,
So,
Spiritual death is when one loses all hope in God?

Whether or not we face this kind of trial, through love for others we’re also saved-we “help” God save us because He made things that way. Yes, suffering is always involved in loving.

Could you elaborate on “help?”

In Catholic theology, one can lose hope without losing faith. One can believe that God exists, for example, without placing hope in Him. Since the two virtues are intertwined in Protestant theology, from my understanding, it seems that some fancy footwork is sometimes employed in an attempt to separate them, especially in light of James’ explanation that “even demons believe”.

Could you give a scriptural reference?

 

[fhansen]

Could you elaborate on “help?”

As St Augustine said, “God saves us but not without our consent”. Our cooperation is necessary in our justification/salvation, not because Gods needs us to “help”, but because He so desires, molding/drawing us into beings of integrity who choose love above all else. And in Catholic theology, works of love contribute to our justification.

Could you give a scriptural reference?

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
James 2:19

 

[fhansen]

"He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent". St Augustine
That was a little better.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

As St Augustine said, “God saves us but not without our consent”. Our cooperation is necessary in our justification/salvation, not because Gods needs us to “help”, but because He so desires, molding/drawing us into beings of integrity who choose love above all else. And in Catholic theology, works of love contribute to our justification.

We see that,
Perfect Happiness,
Is not forced upon us,
But we are drawn to it by desire.

Therefore,

Since Perfect Happiness is an act of free-will,
And God is Love and Perfect Happiness,
Then Love is an act of free-will,
From the free-will God created
Without our help?

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
James 2:19

Since God is Unity, Love and Perfect Happiness,
God unites us to Perfect Happiness,
Not suffering (lack of happiness),
By Loving us?

Therefore,

If conviction
in the attainability
of Perfect Happiness is hope.

Then,

Since God is Goodness and Love,
We hope in Love (not evil),
Which uses suffering,
(Which is evil)?

God would have power over evil,
To manipulate this suffering
To lead, not force, us
To Perfect Happiness?

 

[fhansen]

We see that,
Perfect Happiness,
Is not forced upon us,
But we are drawn to it by desire.

Therefore,

Since Perfect Happiness is an act of free-will,
And God is Love and Perfect Happiness,
Then Love is an act of free-will,
From the free-will God created
Without our help?

Since God is Unity, Love and Perfect Happiness,
God unites us to Perfect Happiness,
Not suffering (lack of happiness),
By Loving us?

Therefore,

If conviction
in the attainability
of Perfect Happiness is hope.

Then,

Since God is Goodness and Love,
We hope in Love (not evil),
Which uses suffering,
(Which is evil)?

God would have power over evil,
To manipulate this suffering
To lead, not force, us
To Perfect Happiness?

I believe He can bring a greater good -of helping us to choose love- out of, among other things, the evil of having us experience its absence. Maybe another way would be to say that He wants us to choose to have Love reign, rather than choosing anything less, by learning the supremacy of its value.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I believe He can bring a greater good -of helping us to choose love- out of, among other things, the evil of having us experience its absence. Maybe another way would be to say that He wants us to choose to have Love reign, rather than choosing anything less, by learning the supremacy of its value.

We do not always Love within suffering.

Love is not always self-evident,
Within suffering,
Unless manifested
Through works.

These seen difficult works
Can help lead others
To greater Love.

Therefore,

Perfect Love
Works not only
in the mind and will,
But also through the physical body.

What about works of Love which are not seen?

 

[fhansen]

We do not always Love within suffering.

Love is not always self-evident,
Within suffering,
Unless manifested
Through works.

These seen difficult works
Can help lead others
To greater Love.

Therefore,

Perfect Love
Works not only
in the mind and will,
But also through the physical body.

What about works of Love which are not seen?

All acts of love, including prayer for others, are act of sacrifice in one way or the other, born of a heart burdened for another’s welfare. And God judges by the heart, according to scripture.

 

[Pug]

From my experience,

When supernatural hope is lost after having faith,
This phrase creates fear and confusion.

When supernatural hope is regained,
Peace and a sense of certainty return.

I agree that hope brings a sense of peace with it, in my experience. I’ve not really thought before of that verse of scripture as creating fear. I tend to view it as telling me that I mustn’t say I know how things will go here on earth for myself or another person, like I can’t say for sure I will go to work today and accomplish much. Maybe something will intervene, like work will close today on account of the swine flu or some other unknown. So I view it as a directive for action/speaking, which is what triggered it in my post, that I said something that might be eligible for the rule.

That phrase does not always bring death to my mind. Although, in its scripture context, I can see why it might always carry that association for someone. Are you thus trying to say that the verse brings to mind death, and that a person with faith, but no hope, will always fear death?

 

[Psychotheosophy]

All acts of love, including prayer for others, are act of sacrifice in one way or the other, born of a heart burdened for another’s welfare. And God judges by the heart, according to scripture.

According to scripture,
Sometimes loving acts should be seen,
Sometimes loving acts should be unseen.
But we follow the principle of Love,
Of all loving acts,
Not acts without
Principle.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I agree that hope brings a sense of peace with it, in my experience. I’ve not really thought before of that verse of scripture as creating fear. I tend to view it as telling me that I mustn’t say I know how things will go here on earth for myself or another person, like I can’t say for sure I will go to work today and accomplish much. Maybe something will intervene, like work will close today on account of the swine flu or some other unknown. So I view it as a directive for action/speaking, which is what triggered it in my post, that I said something that might be eligible for the rule.

That phrase does not always bring death to my mind. Although, in its scripture context, I can see why it might always carry that association for someone. Are you thus trying to say that the verse brings to mind death, and that a person with faith, but no hope, will always fear death?

No.

 

[Pug]

No.

What do you mean, then? Why do you think this bible verse creates fear, specifically in those who have faith but have lost supernatural hope at some time after that?

 

[StrawberryJam]

We do not always Love within suffering.

Love is not always self-evident,
Within suffering,
Unless manifested
Through works.

These seen difficult works
Can help lead others
To greater Love.

Therefore,

Perfect Love
Works not only
in the mind and will,
But also through the physical body.

What about works of Love which are not seen?

I can’t imagine anyone having an objection to works that are not seen.
Doesn’t the bible say something about not letting the one hand know what the other is doing? Can’t remember it now.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t think the two parts of your post are related to each other. I think there have been lots of good explanations about whether you can lose faith. But demons don’t have faith in the same way that we do. Demons believe that God is One (Jas. 2:19), but they have been in God’s presence in a much more immediate way than we have.

Believing in God’s existence and nature is NOT all there is to faith. At least, that is my interpretation of the passage in question. Does a person who believes in God’s existence and omnicience, omnipotence, etc., and has chosen to hate Him have faith? I think if you are going to say you have faith, it is necessary also to love God. It appears from James 2 (and common sense) that it is also necessary to obey God.

So I think those are the differences between belief, which even the demons have, and the faith we are called to, which is given us as a gift that we are free to reject if we choose.

–Jen

The demons who encountered Jesus on earth had​

• **historical **faith - but not
• saving faith

 

[StrawberryJam]

The demons who encountered Jesus on earth had​

• **historical **faith - but not
• saving faith

They may have rejected God out of principal? If the plan was revealed to them, and they saw all the numerous humans that would die over a span of so many years before even having any revelation from the Christian God, let alone what point we are at now- could it be they objected to all the needless suffering?

 

[Psychotheosophy]

What do you mean, then? Why do you think this bible verse creates fear, specifically in those who have faith but have lost supernatural hope at some time after that?

All people experience
fear and confusion
When confronted
With the unexpected.

Peace returns to those
Who have supernatural hope.

I can’t imagine anyone having an objection to works that are not seen.
Doesn’t the bible say something about not letting the one hand know what the other is doing? Can’t remember it now.

I agree.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

All acts of love, including prayer for others, are act of sacrifice in one way or the other, born of a heart burdened for another’s welfare. And God judges by the heart, according to scripture.

So,

Having faith in the Principle of Love,
Is not the same as following the Principle of Love,
Deterred by the sacrifices involved.
But in the sacrifices involved,
We can see the greater,
Unseen Value of Love?

 

[fhansen]

So,

Having faith in the Principle of Love,
Is not the same as following the Principle of Love,
Deterred by the sacrifices involved.
But in the sacrifices involved,
We can see the greater,
Unseen Value of Love?

Didn’t quite follow this one except for the first two lines, which are true.

 

[StrawberryJam]

So,

Having faith in the Principle of Love,
Is not the same as following the Principle of Love,
Deterred by the sacrifices involved.
But in the sacrifices involved,
We can see the greater,
Unseen Value of Love?

This is what I see the catholic viewpoint as teaching, to see these things as one thing. And, incomplete if not together.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Didn’t quite follow this one except for the first two lines, which are true.

Through original sin,
We have been made blind,
To seeing the Perfect Value of Love.

We are deterred from Love,
By the sacrifices involved in Love,
But in our sacrifices involved in Love,

We can see more clearly,

the hidden Value of Love,
And so the hidden Value of Love,
Slowly becomes perfectly self-evident.

This clarity of sight,
Is not something that can be rationalized.
It is as much received as the natural desire of Love.

In The Christ on the cross,
We see this mysterious principle which we follow,
The unity of Perfect Love (God), sacrifice, and humanity.

Blessed is the man who is united to Perfect Love.
Most Blessed is the man who is perfectly united to Perfect Love.

 

[shoewindow3000]

In scripture,
demons accept that Jesus is God.

What is faith?
And
Can faith be lost?

A test of faith is a wonderful thing. The world is suffering so much from secularism, atheism, relativism, etc.

God will allow some faithful souls to endure doubts as a form of penance or sacrifice and to partake in the hurt that so much of His world is feeling.

Whenever you feel doubt about anything, offer it to God as a sacrifice!