Losing hope in the Catholic Church

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Recognizing as I do that many churchmen did terrible things, one has to make a distinction between them and the Church itself. Even a Pope is just one human being. He isn’t “the Church”.

But one has to realize too, that, as English speakers, the histories we read are largely English in origin. And modern histories are largely based on older ones. If, for example, you read an account of the Inquisition written by a Spanish scholar, it’s very different from one that’s commonly accepted in the English speaking world; just as an Irish history written by Irishmen is very different from one written by Englishmen.

Most of the atrocities about which one reads; the real ones, not the invented ones, were committed by laymen, largely secular rulers, who used religion as a basis for persecuting real or perceived enemies of their power or their state as they envisioned it. Actually, the Spanish Inquisition is a good example of that very thing. Strangely enough, the Churchmen (though not all) involved in that actually protected the innocent from the false claims of people who wanted the accused’s land or suspected them of political opposition or something of that nature. And, of all things, the very first right to counsel was established by the Inquisition. Every accused had an absolute right to defense by a lawyer; something very recent in most societies, including our own.

So things are not always as represented.

I’m not a historian or even a very good student of history, but I do read some. One of the big eye-openers to me are the works of Will Durant, who was hardly friendly to the Catholic Church. Even he, repeatedly bats down a lot of the myths about the Church and lays the blame for some of these things where they really belong; at the feet of secular rulers. And among secular rulers, some of the worst Catholic ones pale in comparison with some of the protestant ones.

That doesn’t excuse those Catholic Churchmen who did terrible things. But one really needs to study such things out in order to separate the propaganda from the truth. And it isn’t always easy to find alternative sources of information.
 
I will reply from a different perspective than the others.
Disinherited said:
For example, what about the burning of heretics? I understand that it was sonly to defend the faith and preserve it and that the Church didn’t go out and burn each and everyone who didn’t agree with her teachings, ala the communists but still, I feel that it compromises free will.
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Why do you call the burning of heretics an atrocity? Who are you to say that it is an atrocity? You say “it compromises free will” but actually it doesn’t. Those heretics freely chose to not recant their errors and suffered death as a result. Their burning was a defiant exercise of their free will.

God chooses to give man free will. But we must exercise that free will in accordance with the Divine Law. If we don’t, then we will suffer the consequences. Eternally. While it is true that burning is certainly a painful way to die, the suffering of death by fire is infinitely lesser than the eternal suffering of hell. If you call the burning an atrocity, then how can you fail to also call the eternal fires of hell an atrocity? And then you call God the author of atrocities! Is that really what you want to do?

As a practical matter, burning heretics has no place in today’s world. It would be counterproductive as the cat of mass heresy and apostasy is out of the bag. There is no longer a Christian society that would benefit from the elimination of heretics.

I suggest that your problem is not with the historical actions of Catholic governments, but instead your problem is that you are not very traditional at all. You have been deeply indoctrinated in modern liberal and democratic values - which are very often opposed to Christian values. Therefore you accept without question the modern liberal assertion that the burning of heretics constitutes an atrocity.
Disinherited said:
What about its treatment of the Jews? … I’m talking about being forced to wearing distinctive clothing, forced to attend sermons when you didn’t want to three times a year, forced to pay tithes to the Catholic Church, being kicked out of Church states and having nowhere to go, etc… what angered me was that Pope Pius V himself (who is even canonized) forced the Jews to sell their property.
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Once again, we see that you have liberal values, not Christian values. The fact that Pope St. Pius V is in heaven ought to be a clue to you that the judgement of the Church and your judgement are divergent. That isn’t surprising of course, we are all steeped in an anti-Catholic, anti-God culture that influences our every thought. That is why new seminarians for the SSPX do one year of “deprogramming” even though they almost all come from devout traditional Catholic families. However, the solution in such a case is to abandon liberal values and conform yourself to the Christian values and to the Church.

The Church has always condemned forced conversions because a forced conversion is no conversion at all. Conversion comes from the heart. But it is a work of charity to give non-Catholics every opportunity to convert. From that perspective I don’t see why three sermons a year is objectionable in any way. And why shouldn’t those Jews who once lived in Catholic societies have had to “tithe”? I have to pay taxes to the U.S.A., some percentage of which is used to buy contraceptives, abortions and all sorts of other (true!) atrocities at home and abroad.

The solution to your problems is to embrace the Church and lose the liberalism.

liberalismisasin.com/
 
wsxyz said:
I will reply from a different perspective than the others.

Why do you call the burning of heretics an atrocity? Who are you to say that it is an atrocity? You say “it compromises free will” but actually it doesn’t. Those heretics freely chose to not recant their errors and suffered death as a result. Their burning was a defiant exercise of their free will.
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No, their burning was a defiant exercise of the free will of the men who did the burning.
God chooses to give man free will. But we must exercise that free will in accordance with the Divine Law. If we don’t, then we will suffer the consequences. Eternally. While it is true that burning is certainly a painful way to die, the suffering of death by fire is infinitely lesser than the eternal suffering of hell. If you call the burning an atrocity, then how can you fail to also call the eternal fires of hell an atrocity? And then you call God the author of atrocities! Is that really what you want to do?
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Men are not God. The burning of men by other men is an atrocity, period.
 
I’m just observing that the above replies seem to fall into two categories
  1. The church did not do any of these things you claim. Offers evidence with references to historical books.
  2. Assumes that the claims are correct and tries to find some meaning.
It seems to me, that if one really thought the church did these things, you should look into the legit history and see that the claims are false.

I have always been surprised when I looked into the bogus claims of evil things that are commonly thought to have been done by the church, I am always shocked to find the truth. It has all been twisted by people who genuinely hate the church and spread lies. You must assume you are being lied to with the intention of destroying your faith.
 
wsxyz said:
I will reply from a different perspective than the others.

Why do you call the burning of heretics an atrocity? Who are you to say that it is an atrocity? You say “it compromises free will” but actually it doesn’t. Those heretics freely chose to not recant their errors and suffered death as a result. Their burning was a defiant exercise of their free will.

God chooses to give man free will. But we must exercise that free will in accordance with the Divine Law. If we don’t, then we will suffer the consequences. Eternally. While it is true that burning is certainly a painful way to die, the suffering of death by fire is infinitely lesser than the eternal suffering of hell. If you call the burning an atrocity, then how can you fail to also call the eternal fires of hell an atrocity? And then you call God the author of atrocities! Is that really what you want to do?

As a practical matter, burning heretics has no place in today’s world. It would be counterproductive as the cat of mass heresy and apostasy is out of the bag. There is no longer a Christian society that would benefit from the elimination of heretics.

I suggest that your problem is not with the historical actions of Catholic governments, but instead your problem is that you are not very traditional at all. You have been deeply indoctrinated in modern liberal and democratic values - which are very often opposed to Christian values. Therefore you accept without question the modern liberal assertion that the burning of heretics constitutes an atrocity.

Once again, we see that you have liberal values, not Christian values. The fact that Pope St. Pius V is in heaven ought to be a clue to you that the judgement of the Church and your judgement are divergent. That isn’t surprising of course, we are all steeped in an anti-Catholic, anti-God culture that influences our every thought. That is why new seminarians for the SSPX do one year of “deprogramming” even though they almost all come from devout traditional Catholic families. However, the solution in such a case is to abandon liberal values and conform yourself to the Christian values and to the Church.

The Church has always condemned forced conversions because a forced conversion is no conversion at all. Conversion comes from the heart. But it is a work of charity to give non-Catholics every opportunity to convert. From that perspective I don’t see why three sermons a year is objectionable in any way. And why shouldn’t those Jews who once lived in Catholic societies have had to “tithe”? I have to pay taxes to the U.S.A., some percentage of which is used to buy contraceptives, abortions and all sorts of other (true!) atrocities at home and abroad.

The solution to your problems is to embrace the Church and lose the liberalism.

liberalismisasin.com/
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And this is coming from a Christian. 🙂

Not bad. Very well put, I say.

-MontChevalier
 
I have to say that there is no denying that some of the measures which the Popes took were harsh, very, very harsh but not to the extent which some Jews claim them to be. In order to clarify the facts (although I could be making some errors. Please correct me if I do):

While I totally and every should respect all those Jews harmed by these events, one mustn’t think that the Church ever supported the mob lynchings of the Jews by fanatical ‘Christians’. Even though there is no doubt that a few Bishops and Priests joined in these lynchings (a Fr. Martinez:mad: comes to mind), the actions of one Bishop or Priest do not make the whole Church responsible. The Popes of that time issued Papal Bulls forbidding Christians from persecuting Jews, such as:

Pope Gregory X: Letter on Jews, (1271-76) - Against the Blood Libel “And most falsely do these Christians claim that the Jews have secretly and furtively carried away these children and killed them, and that the Jews offer sacrifice from the heart and blood of these children, since their law in this matter precisely and expressly forbids Jews to sacrifice, eat, or drink the blood, or to eat the flesh of animals having claws. This has been demonstrated many times at our court by Jews converted to the Christian faith: nevertheless very many Jews are often seized and detained unjustly because of this. We decree, therefore, that Christians need not be obeyed against Jews in a case or situation of this type, and we order that Jews seized under such a silly pretext be freed from imprisonment, and that they shall not be arrested henceforth on such a miserable pretext, unless-which we do not believe-they be caught in the commission of the crime. We decree that no Christian shall stir up anything new against them, but that they should be maintained in that status and position in which they were in the time of our predecessors, from antiquity till now.”

Even Pope Innocent III, for all his anti-semitic rants (bluff) and laws forbade the Jews from getting molested in his constitution for the Jews: fordham.edu/halsall/source/in3-constjews.html

When some heretics propagated the racist doctrine of the blood purity, Pope Nicholas V condemned it.

Living conditions of the Jews: Though the Pope did protect the Jews, their lives were pretty miserable. For starters, they forced to wear distinctive dress but one must note that not only the Jews but also the Saracens were forced to do the same. This was so that neither the Jews nor the Saracens would influence Christian people in any way of their heresies. As for the Mass expulsions of the Jews, they were carried out by perfidious Catholic Monarchs who were Catholic in name only as their actions proved them to be otherwise the opposite of what a catholic should be.

Then there were the mass expulsions done by Pope Pius V. Pope Pius V’s mass expulsions weren’t mass expulsions in the sense that he kicked the Jews out of Italy and Europe. Rather, he expelled them so that they would go and live in the ghettos of Avignon, Rome and Ancona so that they would definitely be city dwellers. They actually did have a place to live, albeit very restricted ones.
 
My dearest brother or sister, you should not bear the guilt of generations past. Do not forget that the mission of the Church is to spread the words of Christ, and his words included many on forgiveness and apology. We are all sinners, and as good Christians it is our duty to forgive the crimes of people of past ages and to improve our own relationship with God that we may become closer to him. The church of the modern age has improved and changed from the church of the older age. We are the same as it, yet we are different. I will leave you with these words- do not seek solace in the dulcet pages of History, but seek it in your heart and the love of Christ. I pray you will find comfort and peace once more.
 
Burning heretics and mistreatment of Jewry certainly seem to be things from a distant past. Much of what is said about even fairly recent mistreadtment of Jewry in WWII is not accurate.
Doubting the Church because of acts so distant seems like a small obstacle to overcome when compared to the loss of faith many expeirince because of recent scandal.
Sometimes the only advice can be to pray that God grant us faith.
 
People, thank you so much but, well, thanks to the Blessed Virign again, She through Her inspirations has directed me to this article below. It is the most damning and the most honest, impartial and poignant read I ever rea din regards the Spanish Inquisition. It truly shows that the Church shouldn’t be held responsible for the actions of others. There bad and evil Churchmen but there were also good ones like the Popes and alot of genuinely, non-fanatical Bishops and Priests. The ebst thing? It comes form a Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=148&letter=I This is essential reading to Catholics that they may see that the Church isn’t evil, and to the Jews that they may see that the Church isn’t evil or anti-semitic.
 
I have read much on the Inquisition, from many sources. The article above seems to jibe with most of the legit history including Catholic sources such as the recently released historical information from the Vatican, compiled by Agostino Borromeo.

But the article jumps in right at one point in history and misses the political context. Spain had been subjected to Wars for some 600 years before this as the Mohammedans sought to establish there and fought bloody wars against the Christians and vice versa (Crusades). Jews faired well under the Mohammedans by most accounts I have read and in many instances are seen generally revolting against the Christian rule.

I think a better analogy to our times is to think of these as two different incompatible political systems rather than religions. Because back in that day religion WAS the government.

Getting to the time frame of the article then, the Spanish wanted to be able to root out those people who would, they thought revolt against the government (Christian government). They wanted to find people who were Mohammedans or Jews who claimed to be converts, but were in fact, they thought doing a stealth invasion, and would eventually revolt. They were terribly worn out from 600 years of war.

The Catholic church was caught up in this as they were sanctioning the exposition of theological and scientific heretics (Inquisition). But it was the government that did the abusing and many times the Popes attempted to set the legit Jews free.

This is one man’s (my) understanding of these events in their context.
 
Luther did not treat the Jews much better, and neither he nor Calvin gave no quater to those who disagreed w/them! 😃
 
Frankenfurter said:
I have read much on the Inquisition, from many sources. The article above seems to jibe with most of the legit history including Catholic sources such as the recently released historical information from the Vatican, compiled by Agostino Borromeo.

But the article jumps in right at one point in history and misses the political context. Spain had been subjected to Wars for some 600 years before this as the Mohammedans sought to establish there and fought bloody wars against the Christians and vice versa (Crusades). Jews faired well under the Mohammedans by most accounts I have read and in many instances are seen generally revolting against the Christian rule.

I think a better analogy to our times is to think of these as two different incompatible political systems rather than religions. Because back in that day religion WAS the government.

Getting to the time frame of the article then, the Spanish wanted to be able to root out those people who would, they thought revolt against the government (Christian government). They wanted to find people who were Mohammedans or Jews who claimed to be converts, but were in fact, they thought doing a stealth invasion, and would eventually revolt. They were terribly worn out from 600 years of war.

The Catholic church was caught up in this as they were sanctioning the exposition of theological and scientific heretics (Inquisition). But it was the government that did the abusing and many times the Popes attempted to set the legit Jews free.

This is one man’s (my) understanding of these events in their context.
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I hold your same view. I know that there were cryptic Jews who entered the Church to undermine it and it was because of this that Pope Paul IV instituted Cum ex Apostolatus Officcio (ex cathedra!) so that any heretic, be he a Jew, a protestant, an Albigensian, a Calvinist, a Scientologist (wait, Scientologists didn’t exist back then!) and especially a Freemason may not become a Pope and destroy the Church. And this is a definition of the faith and not a disciplinary action.
 
Thats considered the GOLDEN ERA of Jews/Islam living together. Your talking early 1400 Spain? Yes I’ve heard that desribed by the Jewish as a wonderful period with islam. While Christians were reduced to second class citizens and lived on the outskirts of town and the borders.

To me its not losing Hope in the CC its not making needed move happen quick enough. Like the Consecration of Russia, The move back toward Vatican I and away from ecumenism for the time being. Were moving in the direction contrary to the will of God.

Thats my only problem. What we will suffure, we will suffer as a result. But I believe if we listened and consecrated Russia like we were told. We wouldn’t be in this mess.

OH we consecrated the World, the Homeless, the Starving and Poor. WE did everything but what GOD told us to do.

How many BIBLE verses have you read where mans pride instead of humility just doesn’t work? When God told Noah to build an Ark on dry land. Noah built ther Ark. When God told Daniel to go down in the Lions den, Daniel went down in the Lions den. When the Lord told Mose’s to get His people out of Pharohs land. Mose’s went and did as he was told.

No-one knew how the event would turn out, they placed their life in Gods hand.

I believe we need to consecrate Russia “exactly” as it was told at Fatima. Then I believe we will be on the correct path, and not till then.
 
Disinherited said:
Through the Immaculate Heart,

I’m posting this in the traditional Catholic forum because I’m a traditionalist. The thing is, I’ve been doing alot of research on the Catholic Church and all that, and while I know how to separate the lies from the truth, I can’t live with the fact that the Church did commit atrocities in the past.

For example, what about the burning of heretics? I understand that it was sonly to defend the faith and preserve it and that the Church didn’t go out and burn each and everyone who didn’t agree with her teachings, ala the communists but still, I feel that it compromises free will.

What about its treatment of the Jews? While I admit that the alot of Jews did practice usury (something which isn’t prohibited in the Talmud if committed against non-Jews(Talmud IV/2/70b)) the regulations seemed pretty harsh. I’m not talking about the mass forced conversions made by some members of the church which were condemned by the Church nor the superstitious mob lynchings which weren’t allowed by the Church either, I’m talking about being forced to wearing distinctive clothing, forced to attend sermons when you didn’t want to three times a year, forced to pay tithes to the Catholic Church, being kicked out of Church states and having nowhere to go, etc… what angered me was that Pope Pius V himself (who is even canonized) forced the Jews to sell their property.

I’m undergoing a difficult time juggling these questions, I really am. Can someone please help me?
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Dear OP. Always remember one thing. The Catholic Church Herself has never been an unfaithful bride regarding teachings. Have there been many throughout history on the inside of the church that have been unfaithful? Absolutely, and I would be a liar if I said it any differently. But She is without doubt the bride of our lord & savior Jesus Christ. And for as many as there have been throughout the church’s history that can be held up to view as bad examples, there are infinitely more that can be held up and seen as good ones.

www.scripturecatholic.com
 
Fatima_Vision said:
Dear OP. Always remember one thing. The Catholic Church Herself has never been an unfaithful bride regarding teachings. Have there been many throughout history on the inside of the church that have been unfaithful? Absolutely, and I would be a liar if I said it any differently. But She is without doubt the bride of our lord & savior Jesus Christ. And for as many as there have been throughout the church’s history that can be held up to view as bad examples, there are infinitely more that can be held up and seen as good ones.

www.scripturecatholic.com
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Exactly. Not only that but do you know which time had the most holy and the greatest number of Saints? The Marian age, starting at 1830. There were many Siants in the century before that but one must note that since 18th to the early 20th centuries, there were more saints and the Church did more good than anything else, because during these times we took an even bigger interest in the Blessed Virgin and explored Her even more. It’s undeniable and if one studies this topic alot, one will see that the Church emphasized devotion to Mary alot, especially with Popes Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XII, etc… during those times we did more good than Vatican II ever did, with vocations dropping, the world rapidly detiorating even more because the Marian and Catholic spirit has disappeared, etc…

It is up tot he Blessed Virgin to lead us out of all this and She will do this through Her children. We must not only pray to Her o save us from these times of sin but to truly crush the devil’s head and not rely on God killing each and every enemy of the Church.
 
Disinherited said:
Exactly. Not only that but do you know which time had the most holy and the greatest number of Saints? The Marian age, starting at 1830. There were many Siants in the century before that but one must note that since 18th to the early 20th centuries, there were more saints and the Church did more good than anything else, because during these times we took an even bigger interest in the Blessed Virgin and explored Her even more. It’s undeniable and if one studies this topic alot, one will see that the Church emphasized devotion to Mary alot, especially with Popes Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XII, etc… during those times we did more good than Vatican II ever did, with vocations dropping, the world rapidly detiorating even more because the Marian and Catholic spirit has disappeared, etc…

It is up tot he Blessed Virgin to lead us out of all this and She will do this through Her children. We must not only pray to Her o save us from these times of sin but to truly crush the devil’s head and not rely on God killing each and every enemy of the Church.
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Your whole post is troubling to me.
It is up tot he Blessed Virgin to lead us out of all this and She will do this through Her children.
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It’s up to God.
 
QUOTE=TrueLight;7893722]Your whole post is troubling to me.

It’s up to God.

Its up to God through Mary, as Saint Louis de Montfort said. Our Lady at Fatima said: ‘In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph.’ In the Bible, Saint John saw: ‘A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head, a crown of twelve stars.’ Some people interpret this to be the Church but it can also be applied to the Blessed Virgin. It’s impossible to not read in this verse a Marian context.

Popes have declared the necessity of Mary in our salvation, among them:

Pope Leo XIII: He stressed the importance of the Rosary, writing a record of 13 encyclicals on this subject. When He was presented with a silver statue of Our Lady of Lourdes, he said: ‘you could not have given me anything I liked better.’, and kissed it.

Pope Pius IX called Our Lady the Mediatrix of all grace: ‘All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin – in the all fair and immaculate one who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world: in her who is the glory of the prophets and apostles, the honor of the martyrs, the crown and joy of all the saints; in her who is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger; in her who, with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world; in her who is the most excellent glory, ornament, and impregnable stronghold of the holy Church; in her who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers.’ (Innefabilis Deus, encyclical).

Mary has been declared Queen of heaven and earth (and hell of course, because She commands the demons too) by the Catholic Church. While not strictly a dogma which has been defined, the Church has instituted feast days on Her Queenship (May 31), Her mercy and intercession (May 24). There are sacramentals which not only have been approved by the Church but are propagated by the Church, such as the Miraculous Medal, the Brown Scapular, the Hail Mary, the Rosary… especially the Rosary.

Mary appeared many times throughout history in order to help Her children cope with the troubles of life. This does not mean that She appears physically to everyone of us like how She did at Fatima or Lourdes but to the few people that She did appear, She appeared so as to give us hope, encouragement and grace. Where would Catholics, especially Mexicans and Latinos and Native Americans be in America without their beloved Lady of Gaudalupe?
QUOTE=TrueLight;7893722]Your whole post is troubling to me.

Heres a link which shows the good that Our Lady did worldwide: santorosario.net/power.htm Read it, I really do suggest reading it.
 
The actions of a few dopes are on the bottom of my list when it comes to doubts about the Church.

They are not you, they are not the Church, they are human beings. They made mistakes: terrible, devastating sins that are often challenging to forgive. But again, they are not the Church. The Church is something more.
 
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