Losing my Faith....

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Mythologies tend to express the truth that people had gleaned from experience and reason over the course of human history. Reason is a gift from God and has great power. Experience has a powerful influence on forming who were are as people.

Christian revelation is expressed in terms that humans can understand - terms shaped by experience and reason.

It would be impossible to think that all the mythologies from around the world would not occasionally stumble on shadows of the truth.

Some might see the Phoenix as a shadow of the Truth - but as has been pointed out by others the similarities are at best superficial and less substantial than a shadow.

As has been pointed out the Phoenix is not a Greek myth - it traveled a long way to get to Greece. The Phoenix took root there because it fit with their endlessly repeating cycle vision of history. (see Sisyphus and Persephone) Christian and Hebrew views of human history are nothing like that. History begins at the creation and we are destined for ultimate union with God - not in an endlessly repeating cycle.

The fire of the Phoenix is destruction … the fire of the Holy Spirit is Love. For the Christian, the dove motif is simply a limitation of the human mind struggling to use human words to express things that are far beyond human words. For the Phoenix myth the bird is used as a metaphor for the light of the sun. As for resurrection, it is a common idea found in nearly every culture - a shadow of the truth revealed in Christ.

that other cultures stumbled on elements of the truth does not mean the truth is any less true, does it?
 
quasimodo said:
Mythologies tend to express the truth that people had gleaned from experience and reason over the course of human history. Reason is a gift from God and has great power. Experience has a powerful influence on forming who were are as people.

Christian revelation is expressed in terms that humans can understand - terms shaped by experience and reason.

It would be impossible to think that all the mythologies from around the world would not occasionally stumble on shadows of the truth.

Some might see the Phoenix as a shadow of the Truth - but as has been pointed out by others the similarities are at best superficial and less substantial than a shadow.

As has been pointed out the Phoenix is not a Greek myth - it traveled a long way to get to Greece. The Phoenix took root there because it fit with their endlessly repeating cycle vision of history. (see Sisyphus and Persephone) Christian and Hebrew views of human history are nothing like that. History begins at the creation and we are destined for ultimate union with God - not in an endlessly repeating cycle.

The fire of the Phoenix is destruction … the fire of the Holy Spirit is Love. For the Christian, the dove motif is simply a limitation of the human mind struggling to use human words to express things that are far beyond human words. For the Phoenix myth the bird is used as a metaphor for the light of the sun. As for resurrection, it is a common idea found in nearly every culture - a shadow of the truth revealed in Christ.

that other cultures stumbled on elements of the truth does not mean the truth is any less true, does it?
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why worship a Divine Dove???
 
adolfo123 said:
why worship a Divine Dove???
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Why start a thread on a Catholic forum by pretending you’re Catholic? If you want to have an academic discussion on theology, and Catholicism in particular, then state your specific objections, provide sound arguments in support of them, and don’t try to mischaracterize the Catholic Church’s position to make it easier for you to refute it.😛

P.S. Only a complete moron, or someone who was trolling the forum, would say or think that Catholics “worship” a Divine Dove.
 
adolfo123 said:
st. clement used the phoenix to compare the resurrection of the body…
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well we live in a world where we have birds and wild life and fire and it stands to reason that many religions would incorporate the natural things into their religion. That doesn’t negate the power of the living God. The difference is in a personal experience with the living God- He IS. He responds to prayer. He fills you with grace to respond in obedience and gives you true peace and joy. Its how St. Patrick “wooed” the pagans away from pagaism… he introduced them to the living God. Similarities are logical- because we share the same earth!
 
Hi adolfo123,

St. Clement is using a literary device known as an anology: We die in our old self and are reborn (arise anew) in Christ.

Jean
 
SFH said:
Why start a thread on a Catholic forum by pretending you’re Catholic? If you want to have an academic discussion on theology, and Catholicism in particular, then state your specific objections, provide sound arguments in support of them, and don’t try to mischaracterize the Catholic Church’s position to make it easier for you to refute it.😛

P.S. Only a complete moron, or someone who was trolling the forum, would say or think that Catholics “worship” a Divine Dove.
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I am catholic… I even was going to see if I would enter into the priesthood… but know i am questioning the bible and one of subjects in questioning is that I see the the phoenix is alike to the holy spirit even st. clement used it… At this time I am confused in what to believe…

the only thing left for me is to pray and see what happens…
 
I love Greek Mythology…and I still don’t get your posts.

To get so hung up on the visuals that the writers of the Gospels gave us and to start doubting your faith based on that…doesn’t make sense.

It’s hard being Christian even harder being Catholic, so if you are looking for a way out or satan has messed with you so bad that you give up…yeah you need to pray about that.

You know I’m sure there is alot of things in the Bible that you don’t understand or teachings you can’t wrap you mind around but that doesn’t mean that it’s all lies??? It just means you don’t understand.

I don’t understand therefore its false?:confused:Imagine appling that thinking to other things you don’t understand. I don’t get Algebra therefore it’s a lie?:confused:
 
adolfo123 said:
I am catholic… I even was going to see if I would enter into the priesthood… but know i am questioning the bible and one of subjects in questioning is that I see the the phoenix is alike to the holy spirit even st. clement used it… At this time I am confused in what to believe…

the only thing left for me is to pray and see what happens…
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Well, let’s look at the Resurrection and the Phoenix. How many greek theologians died because they told others that the Phoenix would rise out its own ashes every 500 years. I can’t recall any.

The Apostles, who witnessed the Resurrection and Ascension, all died professing this truth, when they could have saved their mortal hides simply by denying it (Well, all but St. John who died of old age, if I recall correctly).

One can say that there are numerous people willing to die for their beliefs today, but there are two basic differences.
  1. They aren’t direct witnesses of the truths they are relaying, only passers-on of what they have learned.
  2. They are often directly controlled (think “brain-washed”) by those who they follow. The Apostles, however, each went their own separate ways. And on their own, they stood for what they believed in right up to the end. St. Peter died in Rome. St. James in Jerusalem. St. Stephen in India. The list goes on and on throughout the Twelve.
There is a huge difference between what the greeks thought of the Phoenix and what the Apostles taught of Christ.

The analogy of the Phoenix was so that our feeble little minds could grasp it easier. I’m sure you’re familiar with St. Patrick and the legend that he used the Shamrock to illustrate the Trinity. Do you think he was simply copying the Celtic Druids? Or was he using a device that the simple folk of Ireland could better grasp.
 
adolfo123 said:
looks like a bird (dove), fire(Pentecost) , power of ressurection
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Hi Adolfo, In Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form as a dove, and a voice came from heaven "Thou art my Beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased. If you go back to Luke 2: verses 21 - 24 when Mary and Joseph brought the infant Jesus to the temple to present him to his heavenly Father they also brought a pair of turtle doves to offer as a sacrifice. So returning to Luke 3: 22 at the time Jesus is being baptised the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove. So he[Jesus] is marked out as a sacrifice which has its fulfillment when Jesus is offered up as a sacrifice for the sins of men. Bear in mind, Jesus had no need to be baptised since he was the sinless Son of God.
 
=adolfo123;4984170]the phoenix and the holy spirit: bird, fire, resurrection ., the same …this is Greek mythology…
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6"Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near; 7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. "

Mt. 3: 13 Then **Jesus *came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented. 16 And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened * and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; 17 and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, * with whom I am well pleased.”

Here we see evidence og the Trinue Nature of our ONE GOD.

This is certainly Mysterious, even miracalous! But we are speaking of an ALL POWERFUL God! God has proven time and time again that He can do anything!

My dear friend in Christ,

We must not presume to be able to fully understand the mind of God. Nor sold we presume to question how God shows us that He loves us.

Your lack of understanding of The Blessed Trinity puts you in very elite company;** One Divine Nature, but shown to us in three separate yet unable to be separated Persons **, has befuddled the greatest human minds throughout history. Jerome, Gregory the Great, Thomas Aquinas, Theresa of Avelia, John Paul II; none of them have been able to Explain it; yet each of them came to fully accept and Embrace it’s reality.

But because we can’t understand it, in no way makes it less true.

God is “All Good” and can only do “Good Things.” Everything that God has done and continues to do for is ** for OUR benefit, not for His!
**

The Sacraments, Especially The Gift of God, By God, to God, of Jesus Himself, The Mass, the Pope and the RCc structure, and certainly God’s Holy, Inspired and Truthful Word in our Bible.

To attempt to understand all about God is a worthy goal, so long as one understands that while one may gain better understanding, no one, will before heaven, have a full and complete understanding.

God comes to us as the Blessed Trinity, so that we can, and may have a close PERSONAL relationship with Him, through His Son.

We understand “God the Father” as our Creator

We understand “God the Son” as our Redeemer and possibly our Savior (our choice, not God’s).

We understand “God the Holy Spirit” as the Enlightener, Enabler, and the one who is ever-present to protect the Truth and the Church, started by the Son, on bequest of the Father.

Friend, if I were to ask to to explain the entire message of the Bible, in one four letter word, what would that word have to be?

Everything that God does is for His Greater Glory and our possible sanctification.

As for theRessurection there exist an abundance of hard Historical evidence to support this event. It’s happening cannot logically be questioned, because its happening has been verified. Despite many who would deny it, and many who like TRUTH itself, simplt ignore it, hoping, I guess that it will go away.

**Many, many THOUSANDS of people have literly given their lives, shed their BLOOD in defence of this FACT. in every generation including the present time! So like TRUTh itself it can be denied, but it cannt be disproven! **

Love and prayers,

Love and prayers,
 
adolfo123 said:
How is this amazing… that our faith is based in Greek stories and not revealed truth …
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This is no myth, don’t be deceived. Jesus lived and the Apostles witnessed His life, miracles and the resurrection firsthand. They were tortured and murdered for following Jesus, if it was a myth, they would have given it up before being killed for being a believer.

St Peter wrote; “For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.” 2 Peter 1:16.

“For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”-- and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.” 2 Peter 1:17-18

St. John says; “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-- the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-- that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.” 1 John 1:1-3

The use of common themes in the early Church was simply to make it easier for uneducated pagans or gentiles to understand Jesus.

These lies about Greek Mythology and pagan themes “sun-day” etc. are false.
 
The early Christians had nothing to gain and everything to lose, as far as their day to day lives goes, by believing Jesus. They were hated, murder and reviled as the outcasts of their society.

For 300+ years, they had to hide their faith in Jesus from the Romans for fear of being murdered on the spot!

All that they had to do to save their own lives was to acknowledge Caesar as the Divine ruler by saying it once out loud and offering incense.

If Jesus and His Divinity was a myth based on Greek mythology or Pagan or Gentile myths, why did so many refuse to acknowledge Caesar and to chose a horrible death as a martyr? All they had to do was say that Caesar was Divine.

Don’t listen to the Devil and his accomplices and their sad, putrid, pitiful lies!

Listen to your heart, Jesus loves you and He died for your sins!

The true test of authenticity is this: Did Jesus take the offers from the people to make Him the King, did He seek fame, did He profit from the loss of others???

**The answer is NO! **

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark
 
adolfo123 said:
I am catholic… I even was going to see if I would enter into the priesthood… but know i am questioning the bible and one of subjects in questioning is that I see the the phoenix is alike to the holy spirit even st. clement used it… At this time I am confused in what to believe…

the only thing left for me is to pray and see what happens…
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Honest prayer for wisdom is not only the only thing, it’s the best thing!🙂

Mark Shea addresses this issue in Making Senses out of Scripture - his observation is that Scripture says Jesus came “in the fullness of time” and part of what made that time “right” was the way Greek mythology and philosophy had developed, so that many things in that tradition opened people to the Truth of Christ. The convergence, then, of the preparation both within and without the Chosen people meant that the time was ripe for the Messiah who would be Redeemer of all - and who would in many ways be seen to have been prefigured not only in the teachings of the OT but also in a less-perfect way by the teachings/longings of the pagans.

I don’t know if this was Mark’s insight or if he in turn read it somewhere else, but it’s a very interesting observation.

So while those who are intent on disproving Christianity may see ammunition in the parallels between Christian doctrine and mythology, with the eyes of faith we can see instead that God prepared the hearts and minds of even the pagans to accept the Incarnate Word.
 
NHInsider said:
Honest prayer for wisdom is not only the only thing, it’s the best thing!🙂

Mark Shea addresses this issue in Making Senses out of Scripture - his observation is that Scripture says Jesus came “in the fullness of time” and part of what made that time “right” was the way Greek mythology and philosophy had developed, so that many things in that tradition opened people to the Truth of Christ. The convergence, then, of the preparation both within and without the Chosen people meant that the time was ripe for the Messiah who would be Redeemer of all - and who would in many ways be seen to have been prefigured not only in the teachings of the OT but also in a less-perfect way by the teachings/longings of the pagans.

I don’t know if this was Mark’s insight or if he in turn read it somewhere else, but it’s a very interesting observation.

So while those who are intent on disproving Christianity may see ammunition in the parallels between Christian doctrine and mythology, with the eyes of faith we can see instead that God prepared the hearts and minds of even the pagans to accept the Incarnate Word.
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I see … thank you…
 
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