Losing Salvation

[Louemma]

Do the Catholics believe"Once Saved ,Always Saved?

 

[Kay_Cee]

Do the Catholics believe"Once Saved ,Always Saved?

It depends on what you mean. If you mean during our lives on earth, no.

If by “saved” you mean being in heaven, yes.

 

[JRKH]

Do the Catholics believe"Once Saved ,Always Saved?

Please define what you mean by Once Saved Always Saved.
Just want to be clear.

If by this you mean that once you have professed belief and been baptized you can never go to hell, then no Catholics do not believe this.
The Catholic Church teaches that one can lose their salvation by committing mortal sin.

Mortal sin involves the willful postbaptismal rejection of God and His salvation. If one dies unrepentant in such a state then one will not gain heaven.
If one DOES repent of mortal sin, then God in His mercy will forgive that sin.

NOW -
If you hold that if a person who does the above, was never truly saved in the first place, then you get into a whole other argument about what is knowable to us.
An argument which, quite frankly gets no where.

If I have mis-stated how you see OSAS, please correct me and explain how you view OSAS.

And Please - If I may ask, try not to get into just posting a list of bible verses. We see this quite often and it really does not advance the conversation well.
Please explain the coherent thought process that leads you to believe or not believe in OSAS.

Peace
James

 

[dmar198]

Do the Catholics believe"Once Saved ,Always Saved?

The Catholic Church teaches that a person who has come to Christ can leave Him through mortal sin: “Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” (Catechism #1861)

You can see the reality of mortal sin, and its resultant loss of salvation, in Scripture: James 1:
14 each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death. “Full-grown [sin] brings forth death,” but not “smaller” sin. That proves that there are “smaller” sins and “greater” sins. “Mortal” sins and “venial” sins. Mortal or “full-grown” sins will kill your spiritual life, but “smaller” sins won’t.

That also disproves Once Saved Always Saved: big sins kill off your spiritual life. Ask a Calvinist or a Baptist: “If a Christian does something abominably wicked, will he spiritually die?” If he believes in Eternal Security, he should tell you “no!” Then show him this passage and ask him why he contradicted it – “Full-grown [sin] brings forth death,” says the Bible, but he said he would NOT die from a huge sin. He might respond: “Well, if someone commits such a huge sin, then it means he was never really saved.” But that contradicts the passage too – it says that full-grown sin kills a man’s spiritual life; but if he was never really saved, then he didn’t have any spiritual life to be killed. So this passage proves that there is a difference between mortal and venial sin. The reality of mortal sin disproves Once Saved Always Saved. Praise the Lord!

More at: goo.gl/pbkR

 

[Randy_Carson]

Do the Catholics believe"Once Saved ,Always Saved?

No, because this idea is not found in Sacred Scripture or in Sacred Tradition; it is a “tradition of Protestant men.”

 

[Louemma]

The scriptures tell us that if a person becomes lukewarm,Jesus will spew him out.So yes I believe a person can lose their salvation and as one poster pointed out that questioning the salvation to begin with is an endless argument because God is the only one who can search the heart.
Now there are some who believe that their salvation can be secured in doing certain works,confession,and what have you.Now if the outward man shows all the makings of a true child of God but the inward man can be rotten to the core and of course God searches the heart.Now in having said this that we know there are some who become conceited in and by their works,failing to give the glory and honor to the son and to the Father but rather giving the honor and the glory to another.We know in Revelation that there are some who have left their first love,which is Jesus.We know Jesus made eternal life(salvation) possible because by his stripes we are healed.There is only one way to receiving salvation and that is through Jesus Christ and him alone is the only way a person can get to heaven,not by mights and not by works and to become the body of Christ is to be indwelled by his Holy Spirit.The children who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit are the children who make up the body of Christ and this is the true church,those who do the will of the Father and not the traditions of man.
Now in having said this there is only one Father,One Son and The Holy Spirit,which is the Spirit of Jesus.There is only one Father that is Holy.
I don’t post this to argue.
I have enjoyed this forum but I fear the Catholic Church started great as Jesus stated to Peter"Upon this Rock,I build my Church" now I pray you are not in the Church who has left their first love,which is Jesus Christ.The church can not offer salvation and works don’t keep salvation,Salvation is for all that Love Jesus and trust in him.The body of Christ are those who have the Spirit of Jesus(The Holy Spirit) in their hearts and this is the body of Christ.
May God bless You

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Would you mind giving us appropriate documentation as to exactly when the Catholic Church ‘left the rails’?

 

[ryanoneil]

I have enjoyed this forum but I fear the Catholic Church started great as Jesus stated to Peter"Upon this Rock,I build my Church" now I pray you are not in the Church who has left their first love,which is Jesus Christ.The church can not offer salvation and works don’t keep salvation,Salvation is for all that Love Jesus and trust in him.The body of Christ are those who have the Spirit of Jesus(The Holy Spirit) in their hearts and this is the body of Christ.
May God bless You

You are contradicting the very scripture you quote, which says that works do keep salvation.

Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:4-5)

And the ones who love and trust Jesus are the ones who do what he says.

**Then he sat down, called the Twelve, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to be first, he shall be the last of all and the servant of all.” Taking a child he placed it in their midst, and putting his arms around it he said to them, “Whoever receives one child such as this in my name, receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but the one who sent me.” (Mk 9:35-37)

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ (Mt 25:37-40)**

**Rather, when you hold a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind; blessed indeed will you be because of their inability to repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." (Lk 14:13-14)

Then he said to me, “Do not seal up the prophetic words of this book, for the appointed time is near. Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy.” "Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. (Rev 22:10-12**)

 

[Church_Militant]

The scriptures tell us that if a person becomes lukewarm,Jesus will spew him out.So yes I believe a person can lose their salvation and as one poster pointed out that questioning the salvation to begin with is an endless argument because God is the only one who can search the heart.

Right thus far.

Now there are some who believe that their salvation can be secured in doing certain works,confession,and what have you.

Nice and all but that is not something that we believe nor what the Church teaches. However, Our Lord also tells us, “If you love me, you will** keep my commandments**.” (John 14:15) and "If you** keep my commandments**, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. " (John 15:10), not to mention Matthew 25:36-41 and James 2:14-26 so there is an aspect of works that is part of the plan of salvation according to both the scriptures and the Catholic Church. Anyone who teaches is scripturally wrong.

Now if the outward man shows all the makings of a true child of God but the inward man can be rotten to the core and of course God searches the heart.Now in having said this that we know there are some who become conceited in and by their works,failing to give the glory and honor to the son and to the Father but rather giving the honor and the glory to another.

Okay, so? That same applies as much or more to those outside of the Catholic faith as it does to us Catholics. It’s best not to try to judge.

We know in Revelation that there are some who have left their first love,which is Jesus.

That of course, applies to individuals, but Our Lord promised that the gates of hell will never prevail against His Church.

We know Jesus made eternal life(salvation) possible because by his stripes we are healed.There is only one way to receiving salvation and that is through Jesus Christ and him alone is the only way a person can get to heaven,not by mights and not by works and to become the body of Christ is to be indwelled by his Holy Spirit.The children who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit are the children who make up the body of Christ and this is the true church,those who do the will of the Father and not the traditions of man

.Nice sermon…except that the Lord and New Testament never condemned traditions of men in general…just those that are hypocritically laid upon others and not followed by their proponents.

Moreover, if one wants to talk to Catholics about traditions of men, I suggest that you open thread and make your case for where your particular variant of Sola Scriptura is taught in the Word of God because guys like me have read the Bible many times (all 73 books of it) and have yet to find those specific teachings in the scriptures. Nor does the Catholic Church teach that error.

Now in having said this there is only one Father,One Son and The Holy Spirit,which is the Spirit of Jesus.There is only one Father that is Holy.
I don’t post this to argue.

I can’t tell. You certainly seem to have some oppositional remarks you are trying to set forth.

I have enjoyed this forum but I fear the Catholic Church started great as Jesus stated to Peter"Upon this Rock,I build my Church" now I pray you are not in the Church who has left their first love,which is Jesus Christ.

Hogwash! The Catholic Church is the same one that Jesus Himself founded and has remained faithful in her doctrines for 2,000 years. The same cannot be said for those who left the Catholic faith in the 16th century or their modern step children.

The church can not offer salvation and works don’t keep salvation,Salvation is for all that Love Jesus and trust in him.

Really? Well then what is its function and what is Matthew 29:19-20 all about then?

The body of Christ are those who have the Spirit of Jesus(The Holy Spirit) in their hearts and this is the body of Christ.
May God bless You

You sound like a Oneness Pentecostal to me, are you?
The Holy Spirit indwells all believers and it is by that same Holy Spirit that the Church leads and guides its people according to the New Testament.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Now there are some who believe that their salvation can be secured in doing certain works,confession,and what have you.

Most of this is a popular 500 year old and still lingering polemic that non-Catholics have been taught to believe of Catholics. There may be some Catholics who think this. But these would be poorly formed Catholics who have not learned their catechism.

Catholics know that there are different kinds of works and that the right kinds of works are absolutely a necessary aspect of one’s salvation. The works that merit supernatural reward are supernatural works given by God to build up His Kingdom here on earth. That is, these good works require supernatural grace and the the virtues such as charity. One not in a state of grace simply can not do good works that merit him anything. But Jesus told us that those who do not bear fruit (supernatural works) will be cut off and cast into the fire to be burned.

“Confession” is a part of repentance and is the consummation of regret, sorrow and the petition for forgiveness. This is an essential part of salvation for those who have disgraced themselves by committing grave post-baptismal sins. It is a supernatural work - the good kind of work that builds up the Body of Christ. Supernatural works are always co-joined between God and the individual soul. In this case the spiritual authority of the Church is the channel of grace by which a grant of forgivness to “unbind sin” is given. It is the only certain way a disgraced post-baptismal soul can be assured of being returned to to a state of sanctifying grace again.

The same thinking that you are making about “works” in general could be made against those non-Catholics who mistakenly believe in the limited “works of the lips” in making their public profession of faith before any arbitrary group of people.

…
The children who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit are the children who make up the body of Christ and this is the true church,those who do the will of the Father and not the traditions of man.

This is OK but I think you probably imagine that the “Traditions of Man” are anything not found in the bible. This would be wrong headed since the bible is not a manual on how to conduct liturgical assemblies or the mass etc. The true church is where the apostolic Bishops and priests and deacons assemble to conduct the Holy Mass and preach to the assembly.

I have enjoyed this forum but I fear the Catholic Church started great as Jesus stated to Peter “Upon this Rock,I build my Church” now I pray you are not in the Church who has left their first love,which is Jesus Christ.The church can not offer salvation and works don’t keep salvation,Salvation is for all that Love Jesus and trust in him.The body of Christ are those who have the Spirit of Jesus(The Holy Spirit) in their hearts and this is the body of Christ.
May God bless You

Those that left first were those in John 6:66 who refused to believe in Christ’s teaching on real presence of His Body and Blood under the appearances of bread and wine. Salvation is for all who Love Jesus AND who OBEY ALL His teachings. Christ told us we must love God and neighbor and that is an active kind of love and one that DOES the will of The Father. We must feed the poor, help the widows, assist our fellow man (especially the spiritually handicapped who are in danger of damnation). The apostles were also told to teach and that anyone who rejected their apostolic authority such a one was rejecting Christ. We belive firmly that the apostolic succession was handed down from the apostles and then bishop to bishop ever since and no other church (save the Orthodox and a few very small apostolic sects) still retain that original apostolic authority.

The Body of Christ are those stay in a state of sanctifying grace and who die in a state of saving grace to remain in God’s favor. And those who consciously reject the Catholic Church and their moral obligation to know the truth are rejecting Christ – none of these are saved.

James

 

[Ignatius]

Do the Catholics believe"Once Saved ,Always Saved?

The vast majority of all Christians, including Catholics, reject this false doctrine of man. It is very clear from scripture that OSAS is a false doctrine.

In Christian Charity, you seem to have some grave misunderstandings of what The Catholic Church teaches. This is easily remedied, you can fact check your ideas or those that people try to tell you about Catholic teaching by checking them against The Catechism of The Catholic Church, you can get it here; amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Church-U-S/dp/0385479670.

If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at chnetwork.org/. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. As Jesus said, “He who eats My body and drinks My blood lives in Me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day.” And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.

Grace and peace be with you.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[JRKH]

Louemma,
I am glad that you have not been taken in by the traditional OSAS crowd and it seems that you are a good and devout Christian who is trying to follow Christ in Spirit and Word.

I also see that you have concern for other Christians who may have gotten off track. This is also good. Fraternal correction is an important part of our Christianity.

I also see that you have a few misunderstandings about what the Church actually teaches, and I see that there are several folks who are helping you to starighten out your understanding. I will leave it to these and not add to the posts for you to respond to.

I will just add that I think you are right in that the Catholic Church has it’s share of those who are proud or lazy or hypocritical and will face God’s wrath for their sins, just as well will. The best we can do in many cases is to pray for such people and try to present as good an example to them as we are able.

Peace
James

 

[Pax]

Louemma in Christ,

I’m glad to see that you do not subscribe to OSAS. In that point you agree with the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church instituted by Christ. As pointed out by Church Militant, this is the same Church that Jesus promised to stay with until the end of time. Likewise, the gates of hell will not prevail against this Church. If these things are not true, and the Catholic Church has failed, then it is obvious that Jesus failed in his promises to that same Church.

You stated that the Church cannot save a person. Please be advised that scripture calls the Catholic Church “the bride of Christ” and also calls the Church “the body of Christ.” If the Church is indeed “the body of Christ” then in some sense the Church can save a person. This in no way takes any credit away from the redemptive work of Jesus in his passion, death, and resurrection. It instead, adds further dimension and glory to the work of Jesus.

As far as works are concerned, I can only say that non-Catholics generally misunderstand the Catholic position on works. Moreover, in my experience those that subscribe to salvation by “faith alone” misunderstand scripture on this issue. Please take note of one very important fact. The Catholic Church does not teach that we “work our way into heaven.” We are sometimes accused of Pelagianism by our non-Catholic bretheren because they misunderstand “faith and works.” It is the Catholic Church, however, that condemned and stamped out both Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism as they arose in the early Church. These condemnations against the Pelagian heresy still stand today.

I hope this helps and God bless.

 

[MariaG]

You stated that the Church cannot save a person. Please be advised that scripture calls the Catholic Church “the bride of Christ” and also calls the Church “the body of Christ.” If the Church is indeed “the body of Christ” then in some sense the Church can save a person. This in no way takes any credit away from the redemptive work of Jesus in his passion, death, and resurrection. It instead, adds further dimension and glory to the work of Jesus.

.

I have to say, that once I understood this, from scripture, it added a beautiful understanding to me.

Cradle Catholics will frequently answer the question, “How are you saved?” with the response through the Church. And when the fellow Christian tries to correct the “erring” Catholic, with, “We are saved through Christ”, the Catholic will then agree with the person, saying yes, thinking that the person was just restating what they said, sometimes not even understanding they were being corrected!

 

[Louemma]

Thank You for all the responding post.However the point intended is, that all who claim to be part of the body of Christ are not just the Catholics and those who are outside the Catholic church can and do have salvation.
As you know,some have an understanding that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.So I find it odd that there are some who believe salvation can be obtained through the Catholic Church.This reminds me of the Pharisee in the time, our Lord was on the earth.The reason I say this is because they had reached a point of pride in their belief,thinking anything different from their belief in the way to serve the one true God was heresy.
Remember the time Jesus healed on the sabbath and this was not the tradition of the temple laws or the laws of the Pharisees but how were they to know that the true temple was among them.They refused to accept Jesus because they were too concerned with the laws of Religion and who and how theses traditions and beliefs were up held.Anyone outside their beliefs were stoned to death or as Jesus,crucified.
The same with religious sects today.If one is outside the Catholic Church,there are some among you and this is sad to say,believe that unless your Catholic you are not the body of Christ.Now this is not saying all of you because there is some good people here.How do the Catholics come to believe this?That the body of Christ is only through the Catholic church?
In the book of Galatians we read of a disagreement between Peter and Paul and this was because Peter was slowly trying to take the freedom in Christ away by adding things into the gospel of Jesus that put people back into bondage of the law.I would say this still seems to be the case by claiming all must be Catholic in order to receive salvation.I find this very offensive because if the catholic church can obtain salvation for those who make up the body of the catholic church then this tramples the blood of Christ,his death on the cross and receiving him as lord and savior is the foundation stone to the believer.Take away Christ and the fall of that house is great.Salvation taught any other way then by the lamb of God is a false doctrine and those versed in the word knows this and needs to return to the truth of salvation through the son of God and him only.
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formally you who are gentiles by birth and called uncircumcised by those who call them the circumcision that done in the body by the hands of men(This scripture can apply to those who teach Salvation is only for the Catholic Church)
Ephesians 2:13 but now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
Noticed this scripture did not say"Brought near by the Catholic Church.
How did this belief that salvation through the Catholic church is the true body of Christ?
The true body of Christ is his children,those brought near through the blood of Christ.
If you debate my words then you argue the word of God.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Thank You for all the responding post.However the point intended is, that all who claim to be part of the body of Christ are not just the Catholics and those who are outside the Catholic church can and do have salvation…

A request Louemma - next time can you use more white space with paragraph breaks and conventional spacing? It’s very hard to read and parse what you wrote here.

Let me address a few of your points:
You assert that "…those who are outside the Catholic church can and do have salvation"

You are starting to pontificate like you are proclaiming dogmatic teachings. What’s your pedigree? Are you infallable? Where’s your proof?

This is not Catholic belief as stated - there is NO universal salvtion. If a person is not joined in some way to the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Since Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and the pope is His early Vicar and representative then to reject His representative is the same thing as rejecting Christ. That said, those who are baptised (Trinitarian baptism) Christians are all Catholic - some just do not know it and are not well formed Catholics. It is possible that “SOME” of these, and only God knows how many “MAY” be saved. But no one who has grave unforgiven and unrepentant sins will be saved - including those who call themselves Catholic but are not practising their faith.

As for non-Christians - SOME of these MAY also be saved by living in accord with the dictates of their conscience provided that they have no unforgiven grave sins (e.g. fornication, adultury, murder, informed but conscious rejection of the Catholic Church etc.). God may grant a “baptism by desire” for some of these who follow their God given conscience to live according to His moral precepts and cultural opportunities to know the truth. But anyone who explicitly rejects his own moral conscience or Jesus as Son of God or His Church to do evil is not saved. It is not sufficient to only “do no evil” since not doing evil grants no grace. The human soul must be converted and grace filled to avoid the gravity of original sin and rise to heaven rather than fall to hell.

All the above said - its is IMPOSSIBLE to subdivide Christ from His Body (and His Bride) The Church. One can not love Jesus without also loving His Body & His Bride - that is The Church. This is why Catholics are disturbed by those who say “they love the Lord” when they can’t know and love Him unless they love ALL of Him. Jesus told us “not all who call me Lord Lord will enter my Kingdom”.

The comparison you make of the Catholic Church to Pharisees is unwarranted. The Church as a whole DOES as it teaches and does not grant exceptions for its clergy as the Pharisees did. While some clergy have occasionally failed to meet the Christian standards of personal conduct that does not invalidate the consistent teaching of the Church or warrant exiting or never entering the Church. In fact Christ told the Jews to DO what the Pharisees taught but not as they themselves practised since SOME were not practising what they preached. But the teachings were still valid and the new Christian Church was not yet formed.

As for who is “good” or not that is not a function of accepting what you hold personally as correct teaching. Good is what is truthful and what is authentically practised as true Christian teaching. No informed Catholic says that all non-Catholics are not part of the Body of Christ. Those who are baptised into The Church are automatically in that moment part of the Body of Christ until they sin gravely either by explicit action or by failure to act morally (e.g. finally refusing to accept the fullness of truth when its explained to them) and essentially excommunicated themselves. Those who are wounded by post-baptismal grave sin must again repent, be forgiven and return to the Body of Christ. Those imperfectly joined to The Church are in grave danger of falling overboard (we use the imagery of The Arc here) and drowning in sin.

I find this very offensive because if the catholic church can obtain salvation for those who make up the body of the catholic church then this tramples the blood of Christ,his death on the cross and receiving him as lord and savior is the foundation stone to the believer…
**If you debate my words then you argue the word of God. **

Louemma this is specious reasoning as well as false projection of your own righteousness and infallability. There is no apostolic teaching of “accepting Christ as one’s personal Lord and savior” separate from the Church. There is no lone ranger salvation possible. You get the whole body of Christ (all the angels and saints and good Catholics still here on earth) or you get nothing. You are parroting the typical Protestant fundamentalist polemics here – no one is taking away or reducing Christ’s role in the Catholic Church. Quite the contrary Christ is the center of all worship and devotion. Catholics give worship to Christ DAILY 24/7 in masses around the world! This is not to mention how we worship in daily prayer outside of the mass and in our dedication of work and family to Him as well. I don’t see Protestants worshiping Christ daily - perhaps “sort of” at Wed. bible study and then on Sundays…

How much nearer to Christ can you get than to be drawn into His Body (The Church)?

You are getting all spun up here with imagining that the Catholic Church teaches anything but the full scripture. Your words are not the same as Christ’s Louemma. They may sound the same but you have taken them out of context and out of the spirit of Christ and out of the teaching of the same original early Church and re-expressed them in ways that are not true. You are not God’s spokesperson - the pope is.

James

 

[Louemma]

The Holy Spirit is the one who leads in truth and I never claimed to be God’s spoke person.However God speaks for himself through his words and anyone who wants to debate what I have said can find that all my words come from the word of God,so if one wants to argue them you will have to do so with God’s word for they are his words
A person becomes a part of the body of Christ when they accept Jesus as their savior and this person is filled with the spirit of Jesus.From what I gather the Catholic belief teach that the Catholic Church can save you,according to a reply from a post in this thread.So whether I agree or not with all the beliefs of the Catholics.The issue of how one obtains salvation is of course the foundation of the gospel.When one teaches there is another way to Heaven besides Jesus Christ,this is false doctrine.The Catholic Church can not give one eternal life,only the son of God can do this.Now to say that the Catholic church can give salvation because it is the body of Christ,this is also a play on words.All who come to Jesus is a part of the body of Christ when they receive the Holy Spirit.So what I’m hearing is any church that claims to be the body of Christ can give salvation because it claims to be the body of Christ.Just because one claims it don’t make it true.I suppose that is why scriptures states “That every man must work out his own salvation”(See Philippians 2:12-13) This is an issue that has been a problem with the Catholic Church.In fact this is one of the biggest reasons that alot of Catholics,knowing the truth left the church to up hold the true words of God and the true gospel of Jesus Christ.These folks became the protesters against the teachings that had made it’s way into the Catholic Church.These protesters are still holding the true teaching of the gospel.The Catholics call this group the protestants. And so we are!

 

[MariaG]

The Holy Spirit is the one who leads in truth and I never claimed to be God’s spoke person.However God speaks for himself through his words and anyone who wants to debate what I have said can find that all my words come from the word of God,so if one wants to argue them you will have to do so with God’s word for they are his words

Most here do not have any problem with the word of God. Frequently, there is a problem with those interpreting the word of God to mean something entirely different than intended by God.

I would argue with your interpretation of God’s Word.

A person becomes a part of the body of Christ when they accept Jesus as their savior and this person is filled with the spirit of Jesus.From what I gather the Catholic belief teach that the Catholic Church can save you,according to a reply from a post in this thread.

Your gathering is incomplete.

You completely ignored the post that tried to explain this relationship and the further understanding that Catholics have regarding Christ and His Church. Until you understand what Catholics teach on this matter, you will continue to misunderstand and think Catholics are not “teaching the gospel” which is completely untrue.

So whether I agree or not with all the beliefs of the Catholics.The issue of how one obtains salvation is of course the foundation of the gospel.When one teaches there is another way to Heaven besides Jesus Christ,this is false doctrine.

That is true. One will only enter heaven through Christ.

The Catholic Church can not give one eternal life,only the son of God can do this.Now to say that the Catholic church can give salvation because it is the body of Christ,this is also a play on words.

And here your ignorance and failure to even try to understand Christ and the Church leads you to make such an ignorant statement.

No play on words, just a truth revealed by the Holy Spirit.

All who come to Jesus is a part of the body of Christ when they receive the Holy Spirit.So what I’m hearing is any church that claims to be the body of Christ can give salvation because it claims to be the body of Christ.

You hear wrong. There is only ONE Church.

Just because one claims it don’t make it true.I suppose that is why scriptures states “That every man must work out his own salvation”(See Philippians 2:12-13)

Absolutely agree with you there. Many people come here and have made many claims that are contrary to what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me and His Church. But each must work out their own salvation. Hopefully, we both will persevere until the end.

This is an issue that has been a problem with the Catholic Church.In fact this is one of the biggest reasons that alot of Catholics,knowing the truth left the church to up hold the true words of God and the true gospel of Jesus Christ.These folks became the protesters against the teachings that had made it’s way into the Catholic Church.These protesters are still holding the true teaching of the gospel.The Catholics call this group the protestants. And so we are

And here again, your ignorance shows.

The Catholic Church does in fact teach the true gospel of Jesus Christ. If you are one of those who left it, it is quite apparent from your posts here that you clearly were extremely ignorant of the true gospel teachings presented in the Catholic Church.

Respectfully, you need to stop trying to save all your fellow Catholics. Not all of us had “ears that would not listen” while we sit (stand and knell) in the pews of the Catholic Church. We hear the gospel of the Lord preached every single time we go to Mass. Why don’t you spend less time trying to save us and more time trying to actually learn the teaching of the Catholic Church, the gospel of Christ!

At the very least, if you then disagree, you may get people to listen to your interpretation of the gospel. Because right now, you so clearly don’t understand the teachings of the Catholic Church that those who do, have absolutely no reason to listen to what you claim to be the real gospel because you don’t even understand what we teach and believe.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[Pax]

Louemma in Christ,

First you said this:

T
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In the book of Galatians we read of a disagreement between Peter and Paul and this was because Peter was slowly trying to take the freedom in Christ away by adding things into the gospel of Jesus that put people back into bondage of the law.I would say this still seems to be the case by claiming all must be Catholic in order to receive salvation.I find this very offensive because if the catholic church can obtain salvation for those who make up the body of the catholic church then this tramples the blood of Christ,his death on the cross and receiving him as lord and savior is the foundation stone to the believer.
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Then you said this:

The Holy Spirit is the one who leads in truth and I never claimed to be God’s spoke person.However God speaks for himself through his words and anyone who wants to debate what I have said can find that all my words come from the word of God,so if one wants to argue them you will have to do so with God’s word for they are his words

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You used what I quoted first as part of your evidence in your arguments against the Catholic Church. You then claim in the second quote that everything that you have said comes from the word of God and that they are God’s words.

Please be advised that you greatly modified and misunderstood what was said by Paul in his letter to the Galatians. Here is the reference from Galatians:

Gal 2:11-14
But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

The context of this passage denies your claims. Peter was acting “insincerely” and as such was being hypocritcal because he feared the circumcision party. Peter was not doing any of the things you claim. Likewise, if you read the book of Acts 11:1-26 you will see that it is Peter that initiates the teaching that the gentiles can be saved. He does this in the face of criticism by the circumcision party. Furthermore, in Acts 15 we are told that even after Peter initiated the teaching there was still contoversy. Paul and Barnabas then went to Jerusalem to meet with the apostles and the elders. The apostles and the elders then gathered together in council and some claimed that the gentiles had to be circumcised. In response to this we read the following in Acts 15:7-12 where it says:

And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

It is obvious from these quotations that Peter was not teaching or attempting to do what you claim. Instead, in a moment of weakness after he had made the teaching in council, he acted hypocritically and Paul called him on it. Please note that it can be claimed that Paul acted even more hypocritically than Peter on the subject of circumcision. Please remember that after all of his admonitions concerning circumcision, Paul had Timothy circumcised. You can read about that event in Acts 16.

Did Paul, therefore, attempt to do what you claim about Peter? I don’t think so and I do not think you believe that either. It is extremely important to be very careful about making claims about scripture and how to apply scriptural passages. The Catholic Church sits upon a 2000 year mountain of scriptural scholarship and apostolic tradition. The Catholic Church is in a distinct position of advantage when it comes to the word of God vis-a-vis our individual interpretations.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

The Holy Spirit is the one who leads in truth and I never claimed to be God’s spoke person.However God speaks for himself through his words and anyone who wants to debate what I have said can find that all my words come from the word of God,so if one wants to argue them you will have to do so with God’s word for they are his words
A person becomes a part of the body of Christ when they accept Jesus as their savior and this person is filled with the spirit of Jesus.From what I gather the Catholic belief teach that the Catholic Church can save you,according to a reply from a post in this thread.So whether I agree or not with all the beliefs of the Catholics.The issue of how one obtains salvation is of course the foundation of the gospel.When one teaches there is another way to Heaven besides Jesus Christ,this is false doctrine.The Catholic Church can not give one eternal life,only the son of God can do this.Now to say that the Catholic church can give salvation because it is the body of Christ,this is also a play on words.All who come to Jesus is a part of the body of Christ when they receive the Holy Spirit.So what I’m hearing is any church that claims to be the body of Christ can give salvation because it claims to be the body of Christ.Just because one claims it don’t make it true.I suppose that is why scriptures states “That every man must work out his own salvation”(See Philippians 2:12-13) This is an issue that has been a problem with the Catholic Church.In fact this is one of the biggest reasons that alot of Catholics,knowing the truth left the church to up hold the true words of God and the true gospel of Jesus Christ.These folks became the protesters against the teachings that had made it’s way into the Catholic Church.These protesters are still holding the true teaching of the gospel.The Catholics call this group the protestants. And so we are!

Louemma in Christ,

I do not mean to be uncharitable and what I am about to say is not a personal attack, but rather a historical fact that now puts a yoke upon you as a non-Catholic.

Please be advised that during the Reformation many people left the Church. Initially, it was Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli that broke away and left the Church. Many followed them out of the Church and others began additional denominations over time until we arrived at where we are today with thousands of splinters in Christianity.

You rightly point to an error in mentioning OSAS as a heresy. This heresy is held by a pretty large number of people that claim to be Christians. Unfortunately, there are many other heresies that are held by our separated brothers and sisters in Christ in either adopting something novel or in denying something that is true.

Believe it or not, there is an easy way to figure out what is heresy and what is not heresy even if scripture is not clear on a particular subject. You interpret a particular scripture one way and I interpret that scripture differently. We both draw different doctrinal conclusions based upon our varied interpretations. How do we know which of us is correct? We believe in the Lord Jesus with all our heart, and we both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. How do we know which interpretation and doctrine is correct? It cannot be determined by our sincerity. We could actually both be sincere and both be wrong. It could be that a different person with a third interpretation is actually correct. This set of possibilities could be multiplied among sincere, prayerful, and believing Christians and in fact has been over and over again. We have ample evidence of that before us. Every denomination believes that it has the truth. So how do we know which is correct?

The key and answer to this can be found in scripture, and anyone can know what the truth is even without fully understanding scripture and without knowing the original Greek or anything like that. Can you tell me where that key and answer is in scripture? If you do not know what I am driving at then let me know. I would, however, like you to think carefully about this before you give your answer. This post is in its entirety a back drop to that answer.

God bless.